Life is scary, life is hard.

[NeverAmI]

Oh, this is so true. It's guilt with a capital G.

It seems similar to religious guilt - but it is not by any means confined to people who are very (or even at all) religious.

I know atheists who seem to think like this: "Unless you are miserable, poor, and downtrodden, you do not deserve one iota of happiness, and you are a borgeoise scum and a tool of the patriarchy, who is responsible for all the suffering in the world."

...and to me this is exactly the same thing as religious guilt, only with a different, secular, label on it, and it is hypocritical. Happiness is not built on the suffering of others.

Often people who think this way bend themselves into pretzels to justify any happiness they start to feel, and they sabotage it -- it causes them pain because they think a happy person=a bad person, and they don't want to be a bad person.

People seem to think if you're happy and/or able to enjoy some level of material success, then you simply must be some kind of swine who deserves to burn in hell. Even some atheists seem to think this way, though how they manage that feat of logic is beyond me.

Maybe I am the only one to have noticed this, though, and I am not sure I've explained it clearly. But I think I know what you mean.

I can understand this. It was part of my social anxiety.

I had to actually be less empathetic to get over it. I had to learn to say no, and to put myself first. I got much better responses once I started setting my boundaries much further out, which means I say no, I stand up for myself much more often than just at times when I am so emotionally unstable that I am about to crack.

Most people very much prefer to have consistent boundaries from others, even if they are generally more stringent, rather than a variable response based on someone's emotional state at that particular time.

It seems simple, but when that moment comes to say no, you get nervous, emotionally unstable, you feel overwhelmed and it is just so easy to say yes, just this one time, next time I will say no, next time...

And now, I also notice I am much stronger about my own emotional state. So what if I am happy; and so what if you are not? Don't try to bring me down just because you aren't. Of course, if I am poking and prodding someone that is in a bad mood then I am asking for trouble, but some people are just generally miserable and like to bring others down. I know, because I tend to be that way sometimes.

 

[testing]

Yes, I think setting personal boundaries is important -- I don't think you would ever bring anyone down... when I made this post I was thinking of people I've known in my life who -- well, it's really really messed up and I can't cover it all -- but there are people I know who not only resent others for feeling happy or having good things happen to them, they have such a strong sense of guilt that they literally have to apologize for the good things in their life. I honestly didn't mean you or anyone on this forum, I was thinking of people I know irl. NOT you.

Have you ever known anyone like that? Someone who actually seems to fear saying "life is good!" and really mean it? Maybe because they will seem either stupid, or callous, or (often) unholy? Someone who likes to brag about how awful their life is,as if there is a reward being handed out for the one who suffers the most?

If you've never met anyone like that, it may not make much sense, but I know some people to whom life has dealt a fantastic hand and they are too guilt-ridden to play it.

P.S. I can see how this feeling would be crippling. I have social anxiety sometimes, too, but it is for different reasons.

P.P.S. I hope this is making sense.

P.P.P.S. Okay, I am having to re-read your post for it to sink in. It's been a long week. LOL!

 

[Gaze]

Yes, I think setting personal boundaries is important -- I don't think you would ever bring anyone down... when I made this post I was thinking of people I've known in my life who -- well, it's really really messed up and I can't cover it all -- but there are people I know who not only resent others for feeling happy or having good things happen to them, they have such a strong sense of guilt that they literally have to apologize for the good things in their life. I honestly didn't mean you or anyone on this forum, I was thinking of people I know irl. NOT you.

Have you ever known anyone like that? Someone who actually seems to fear saying "life is good!" and really mean it? Maybe because they will seem either stupid, or callous, or (often) unholy? Someone who likes to brag about how awful their life is,as if there is a reward being handed out for the one who suffers the most?

If you've never met anyone like that, it may not make much sense, but I know some people to whom life has dealt a fantastic hand and they are too guilt-ridden to play it.

I can understand this but i think sometimes it's not so simple. I think, in some cases, the person who is unhappy is envious but that's not it entirely. Yes, I think they struggle with the thought that they may have worked hard all their lives and still have not achieved the happiness they like, but yet they see others having those things without having to struggle to get it. I know the word "struggle" is a little strong and some will probably challenge the use of this word, but i think it fits.

I have a friend who seems to be doing fairly well, in her life. You could say she has those things that i would love to have for myself but which i don't (for different reasons). I envy yes, and I do sometimes get annoyed at her when she talks about doing all the things she'd like to do. Although she has every right to do so, it bothers me that she thinks she deserves to have these things simply because she wants them. Having the chance or opportunity to do the things you want or have the things you desire or need are a privilege and a luxury, not necessarily a right. I see families working very hard everyday and still have very little, and they don't see themselves as more deserving of having everything they want. They struggle and want better for their lives, but they're no less deserving and yet they don't behave as if they should have everything they want.

So, it's not always that someone is simply being hated for being happy, sometimes it's more the belief that some may have that if they're happy, then you should be too, and they shouldn't have to hear anything negative. So, when you're not happy (for whatever reason), then you're made to feel like a party pooper if you're having a difficult time in your life. But yet if things are suddenly not going well for them, it's funny that they're usually the same persons who will call you up and vent, and god forbid you don't acknowledge how they feel. Because, when they're experiencing hard times, suddenly the difficulty of life becomes real. And then they want you to empathize and understand how difficult life is for them; something they couldn't do when you're going through your own stuff.

 

[testing]

...So, it's not always that someone is simply being hated for being happy, sometimes it's more the belief that some may have that if they're happy, then you should be too, and they shouldn't have to hear anything negative. So, when you're not happy (for whatever reason), then you're made to feel like a party pooper if you're having a difficult time in your life. But yet if things are suddenly not going well for them, it's funny that they're usually the same persons who will call you up and vent, and god forbid you don't acknowledge how they feel. Because, when they're experiencing hard times, suddenly the difficulty of life becomes real. And they want you to empathize and understand how difficult life is. Something they couldn't do when you're going through your own stuff.

I'm wanting to revisit this thread, because I'm not sure I have it all sorted out, and I don't feel like I've made myself clear...

The person irl that I know, who is on my mind when I think of the whole "guilt" theme, is the same person who abandoned me and others I love when we were going through a challenging time... yet she resents our successes as well. (This is not a nice person, as you probably have gathered by now.)

The feeling I am trying to explain is... empathy should work both ways, shouldn't it? We should share in our loved one's pain AND joy.

Why is it it is easier to feel other's pain than their joy?

Why does their joy seem to translate into resentment so easily?

Is that empathy?

And for ourselves, why do we think our happiness will cause others pain, when in reality it is usually confined to ourselves, and unless we are being obnoxiously braggy and insensitive, it will not affect our friends' lives in any way whatsoever if we, say, go to the beach, or get a better job, or oh, I don't know, have a good day?

Again, I am just trying to understand this, and it is something I've thought about a lot. I'm not really good at explaining it.

 

[Gaze]

I'm wanting to revisit this thread, because I'm not sure I have it all sorted out, and I don't feel like I've made myself clear...

The person irl that I know, who is on my mind when I think of the whole "guilt" theme, is the same person who abandoned me and others I love when we were going through a challenging time... yet she resents our successes as well. (This is not a nice person, as you probably have gathered by now.)

The feeling I am trying to explain is... empathy should work both ways, shouldn't it? We should share in our loved one's pain AND joy.

Why is it it is easier to feel other's pain than their joy?

Why does their joy seem to translate into resentment so easily?

Is that empathy?

And for ourselves, why do we think our happiness will cause others pain, when in reality it is usually confined to ourselves, and unless we are being obnoxiously braggy and insensitive, it will not affect our friends' lives in any way whatsoever if we, say, go to the beach, or get a better job, or oh, I don't know, have a good day?

Again, I am just trying to understand this, and it is something I've thought about a lot. I'm not really good at explaining it.

Just to clarify, i don't think your post was unclear at all. I was just relating to your post thinking of how it relates to a situation i'm in.

My point was just to say that there's more than one way to look at that situation.

I agree with you that if you're happy, you shouldn't be made to feel guilty about it. I think the problem is more that this particular seems to want you to feel guilty about being happy, simply because they are unhappy themselves, which is not good. I was just thinking that sometimes, when I see someone saying that people in their lives are not happy for them, it may be not as black and white as it seems.

And I was probably doing some projecting of my situation onto yours. Sorry about that. Good post.

 

[NeverAmI]

Have you ever known anyone like that? Someone who actually seems to fear saying "life is good!" and really mean it? Maybe because they will seem either stupid, or callous, or (often) unholy? Someone who likes to brag about how awful their life is,as if there is a reward being handed out for the one who suffers the most?

I have been that person (AKA Scrooge) many times. I often get caught up in the seriousness of life and have to remind myself to let things slide and enjoy myself.

 

[sassafras]

Have you ever known anyone like that? Someone who actually seems to fear saying "life is good!" and really mean it? Maybe because they will seem either stupid, or callous, or (often) unholy? Someone who likes to brag about how awful their life is,as if there is a reward being handed out for the one who suffers the most?

I've also encountered people who are quite the opposite, who rather pretend everything is okay and ostracize people who dare offer their criticism or an opposing view by labeling them as perpetual pessimists. I think living on either extreme (optimism vs. pessimism) is unhealthy; especially if you're one of those extremists that thinks that anything that tips in that direction is automatically a bad thing. Ie: An extreme optimist thinks a sobering dose of reality is poo-pooing, while an extreme pessimist believes that a bit of happy colour is just a person's rose-coloured glasses. Just thinking aloud... I wonder why some people feel so inclined to choose one camp over another. A bit of balance goes a long way.