Lifestyle Choices

[Satya]

I'll look for those articles for you. I used to have them listed. While I will not argue that the evidence is "proof" that homosexuality is purely biological in origin, I do take offense that homosexuality should be labeled a "disease" when there is no evidence that it is contagious or that it alone causes significant impairment. I think you are falling into the deviancy trap in which we are historically primed to view deviations from the norm as either sin, crime, or sickness. Just because it does not meet one imperative does not mean it doesn't meet another. Many evolutionary theories regarding homosexuality see it as an ecology sound means of increasing fitness through kinship. In other words, helping raise your siblings's children is another way to pass on your genes.

 

[Architectonic]

or that it alone causes significant impairment.

What are you talking about? It clearly causes sexual impairment.

I'm not saying all diseases necessitate treatment, but so long as it is considered biological in origin, there will always be those who suggest it requires treatment.

I suggest moving in the opposite direction - try to increase societal respect that it is a legitimate lifestyle choice.

It is interesting that certain ancient societies had more liberal attitudes towards sexuality - perhaps because they didn't have the evidence to suggest it was a disease.

 

[slant]

So if someone has always been big then it would be considered more in line with homosexuality? How do we know that they're born homosexual?

I think that what you

 

[Quinlan]

Dude, what's your diet like?

Want to change to my raw food diet?

Are you asking me? Raw food diet sounds good, no cooking!

But I would not go on a diet to lose weight nor am I obese anyway.

There is no significant health risks associated with simply being homosexual. There are health risks involved in having homosexual sex. There are also mental health risks associated with being within a stigmatized group. However, being homosexual does not mean you have poor health whereas obesity, by definition, means you have poor health.

http://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar?q=HEALTH+RISKS+OF+HOMOsexuality&hl=en

?

Obesity is most commonly defined as a BMI greater than 30, therefore there are many obese people (including sportspeople) that are perfectly healthy.

The rate of obesity is steadily increasing every year and has been increasing since the 1960s, whereas the rate of homosexuality has remained relatively steady. If obesity were primarily innate in nature, then it would not have increased at such a high rate. If homosexuality were a manner of choice, then it would expectantly have increased as societal attitudes have become more tolerant. This seems to indicate that obesity is considerably more of a choice than homosexuality is.

"Rates of increase" are misleading, many twin and adoptive studies have shown that the heritability of obesity is around 70%. So 70% of the difference in weight in your average population is genetic. Therefore the difference in weight between you and your parents is most likely environmental, whereas the difference between you and a very fat unrelated man out on the street is mostly genetic.

It's possible that the genetic predisposition for homosexuality (if there is one) has already maxed out, whereas the genetic potential for obesity hasn't (although obesity rates have actually plateaued now over the last 5 or so years).

In the US, to take a much-cited example, the so-called ‘obesity epidemic’ is almost wholly a product of tens of millions of people with BMIs formerly in the 23–25 range gaining a modest amount of weight and thus now being classified as ‘overweight’, and, similarly, tens of millions of people with BMIs formerly in the high 20s now having BMIs just >30. This movement of population cohorts from just below to just above the formal definitions of overweight and obesity is what public health officials are referring to when they point out that rates of obesity have exploded over the course of the last generation. (Furthermore, there is some evidence that adult and childhood BMI may have ceased to increase, as shown by comparison of NHANES data from 1999 to 2000 and from 2001 to 2002).[/QUOTE]
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/35/1/55

So there have always been comparatively fat and thin people, just as there has always been hetero and homo people.

unless you're only obese by pure BMI standards, and not by health ones.

Well that is the most common measure of obesity in science and the measure that is driving the whole obesity hysteria.

But [most] people are thought by society to be obese because of bad eating and exercise habits.

But is society's thinking right on that count, the studies I have seen seem to show little difference between the eating habits of people with obesity compared with normal weight. The problem is the circular definition over overeating, overeating is eating so that you're fat, so if you're fat whatever you eat, you're overeating. So when a fat person undergoes bariatric surgery and loses a lot of weight (but is still fat) he may be physically able to only consume 700 calories a day but he is still "overeating" because he's maintaining a fat body on that amount.

Though there are some people whom are afflicted by rare diseases which cause obesity (such as MOMO syndrome) the majority of people whom are obese are obese because of poor lifestyle choices.

Is there not the possibility that genetic differences may be (almost) forcing those people to make those decisions? Do you know that when a very fat person loses weight to normal size they burn far fewer calories than someone who is naturally the smaller size? So two people exactly the same weight yet one is practically starving and the other is completely comfortable.

 

[Shai Gar]

and it is due to bad diet with most people. Corn Syrup is included in a lot of processed stuff. It helps to make people obese and diabetic.

Raw food is awesome because, as you said, no cooking.
I just take it out of the fridge and eat it. Laziness for the win!

 

[Quinlan]

and it is due to bad diet with most people. Corn Syrup is included in a lot of processed stuff. It helps to make people obese and diabetic.

Raw food is awesome because, as you said, no cooking.
I just take it out of the fridge and eat it. Laziness for the win!

Corn syrup makes no sense as an explanation because we have similar rates of obesity in NZ and OZ yet we eat very little corn syrup (as far as I know), we eat good ol' cane sugar instead.

 

[Quinlan]

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/314/4/193

We conclude that genetic influences have an important role in determining human fatness in adults, whereas the family environment alone has no apparent effect.

So if you take a child from fat parents and give it to skinny parents the child will still likely grow up fat.

Is homosexuality that heritable also?

 

[Shai Gar]

corn syrup is used in foods as a cheap govt subsidised replacement for sugar.

 

[slant]

I BOYCOTT CORN SYRUP!

 

[Quinlan]

corn syrup is used in foods as a cheap govt subsidised replacement for sugar.

I know that's true in the States but I don't think it's the same in NZ or OZ.

Meanwhile, HFCS continues to be widely used as a sweetener in the US, mainly because of cane-sugar import tariffs. But the same is not true in New Zealand, where cane sugar is the first choice of caloric sweetener for most manufacturers. For example, Coca-Cola Amatil (NZ), our largest soft-drink manufacturer, uses cane sugar in caloric soft drinks, whereas Coca-Cola in the US uses HFCS.

http://www.listener.co.nz/issue/3619/columnists/14024/sugar_sugar.htmlhttp://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:9ELqYC2mh9MJ:www.listener.co.nz/issue/3619/

 

[Norton]

If being gay is a putative "lifestyle" that one can freely choose then it follows that being straight is also a "lifestyle" one can choose. One is tempted to ask the random heterosexual when he or she chose to be straight.

Being gay is biologically determined, not a "lifestyle." Not proven yet, but the data are converging that way.

Obesity is an extremely complex, multivariable condition with an etiology that includes biological, cultural, agricultural, psychological, economic, sociological, and other factors.

Why people think they have a right to discriminate against gay people and obese people is beyond me. Life is hard for most people. Some people have it even harder--much harder.

 

[Satya]

What are you talking about? It clearly causes sexual impairment.

Because it isn't procreative sex it is an impairment? Does that mean masturbation is an impairment?

I suggest moving in the opposite direction - try to increase societal respect that it is a legitimate lifestyle choice.

I think that has always been the draw of gay marriage.

 

[Satya]

http://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar?q=HEALTH+RISKS+OF+HOMOsexuality&hl=en

Did you actually read any of those articles? The first one is propoganda from a Family Policy Group. In other words, social conservatives who illogically argue that homosexuality = health risks. Do you think just because you found it with Google Scholar that it is worth shit? One of my biggest pet peeves is when people use distorted information to push their view.

But if you want to play that game, then name one heatlh risk associated with homosexuality. Not one associated with homosexual sex or one that is caused by the societal stigma of homosexuality, but one actual health risk associated with simply being homosexual. I want to hear how simply being attracted to the same sex is bad for your health.

 

[Quinlan]

But if you want to play that game, then name one heatlh risk associated with homosexuality. Not one associated with homosexual sex or one that is caused by the societal stigma of homosexuality, but one actual health risk associated with simply being homosexual. I want to hear how simply being attracted to the same sex is bad for your health.

I never claimed any causal relationships, only associations. Similarly there is little proof of causal relationships when it comes to extra weight (aside from things like arthritis due to the actual weight load on joints).

Why would we take care to account for the negative health effects of stigma when it comes to homosexuality when we seem to completely ignore the negative effects of the stigma of obesity (which you cannot ever hide from, unlike homosexuality)?

 

[Satya]

I never claimed any causal relationships, only associations. Similarly there is little proof of causal relationships when it comes to extra weight (aside from things like arthritis due to the actual weight load on joints).

Why would we take care to account for the negative health effects of stigma when it comes to homosexuality when we seem to completely ignore the negative effects of the stigma of obesity (which you cannot ever hide from, unlike homosexuality)?

When there are laws that say two fat people can't get married or two fat people can't adopt children then you can talk. And what is with this, "you can hide" crap? Do you honestly think the stigma has any less potency if a person is hiding their identity? Hiding who you are just makes you feel like a liar in addition to whatever guilt you may have already in association to your identity. Honestly you have absolutely no clue what it is like to be gay.

An obese person is someone who makes up a third of the country, whereas a gay person is someone who is part of 5% of the country. Being obese doesn't even make someone into a minority.

 

[Quinlan]

When there are laws that say two fat people can't get married or two fat people can't adopt children then you can talk.

There have been cases where people have been not able to adopt because they are too fat.

And what is with this, "you can hide" crap? Do you honestly think the stigma has any less potency if a person is hiding their identity? Hiding who you are just makes you feel like a liar in addition to whatever guilt you may have already in association to your identity. Honestly you have absolutely no clue what it is like to be gay.

I don't know, but I assume things like high school might be a bit worse if you have GAY written across your forehead. You can be in a big crowd of people and enjoy that moment of complete anonymity. No one making assumptions about your perceived sins.

An obese person is someone who makes up a third of the country, whereas a gay person is someone who is part of 5% of the country. Being obese doesn't even make someone into a minority.

And this is relevant to what? I'm sorry, I didn't mean for this to be a competition or anything.

 

[Satya]

There have been cases where people have been not able to adopt because they are too fat.

You are calling a few isolated cases similar to a law that outright forbids gays from adopting? Seriously, if you are a gay couple in Florida versus an obese couple in Florida, who has the better chance of adopting a child? I'll give you a clue. Florida law outright forbids gay couples from adopting children.

I don't know, but I assume things like high school might be a bit worse if you have GAY written across your forehead. You can be in a big crowd of people and enjoy that moment of complete anonymity. No one making assumptions about your perceived sins.

No one in high school makes assumptions about people's sexuality? WTF?

At least an obese person can take the person they like to the prom.

And this is relevant to what? I'm sorry, I didn't mean for this to be a competition or anything.

You are comparing the stigma of being obese to the stigma of being homosexual. That isn't a competition. How many people are out there declaring that there is an "obese agenda" and that you are trying to recruit children to your lifestyle?

Frankly you are beginning to piss me off. If you are straight and fat then you are in a considerably better position in this society than if you are gay and skinny. I don't know of many people who have been beaten and killed for just being fat, but the reality is considerably different for gay people. I've lived with people who would have thought nothing of beating the crap out of me just because of my orientation.

This whole comparison was retarded from the beginning. Comparing a medical condition to a sexual orientation and then trying to demean members of that orientation as deficient to push your view is simply asinine.

 

[Quinlan]

This whole comparison was retarded from the beginning. Comparing a medical condition to a sexual orientation and then trying to demean members of that orientation as deficient to push your view is simply asinine.

I wasn't trying to demean homosexuality, because from my perspective I don't see having a BMI of >30 as a demeaned or degraded state of being in itself.

I take your point though, it was wrong for me to compare and I will leave it at that.

 

[enfp can be shy]

When there are laws that say two fat people can't get married or two fat people can't adopt children then you can talk.

There are laws of physics that say very obese people can't fit into one seat in the bus. Let's protest!

State marriage is such a virtual issue... Let women protest against men having a piss while standing, cause it's a discrimination! Bald people protest against those with hair that won't shave it! Underaged children and overaged old people protest against adults being able to make babies of their own!

If nobody cares about artificial labels like marriage nobody'd care about gay marriage. Come on, I love my pet, we can't have real sex, or babies, but let's get officially married by the state!

Also let's protest against marriage being only allowed for 2 people; or in some countries 1 man and some women. Let us get group marriages! 6 souls - 2 men, 3 women, and their dog, get to be a happy family! I want the state to marry me to my computer and my bike! The PC is my soulmate, the bike is my passionate lover... We are now ready to adopt, ahhh...

 

[Satya]

There are laws of physics that say very obese people can't fit into one seat in the bus. Let's protest!

State marriage is such a virtual issue... Let women protest against men having a piss while standing, cause it's a discrimination! Bald people protest against those with hair that won't shave it! Underaged children and overaged old people protest against adults being able to make babies of their own!

If nobody cares about artificial labels like marriage nobody'd care about gay marriage. Come on, I love my pet, we can't have real sex, or babies, but let's get officially married by the state!

Also let's protest against marriage being only allowed for 2 people; or in some countries 1 man and some women. Let us get group marriages! 6 souls - 2 men, 3 women, and their dog, get to be a happy family! I want the state to marry me to my computer and my bike! The PC is my soulmate, the bike is my passionate lover... We are now ready to adopt, ahhh...

Marriage is a legal contract between two consenting adults. Marriage constitutes a set of very real rights, including things like hospital visitation, beneficiary rights, insurance, etc. Do you somehow feel like a big man for the degrading the efforts of homosexuals to obtain equal recognition of those rights by comparing it to things like bestiality? Exactly how does a pet or or computer or bike, consent?