Love?

[Atticus]

I would argue that if it needs a response (if it has conditions), it isn't Love. If it needs a particular response, it is motivated to initiate the movement of energy towards the Self (taking). It is selfish. I called Love a connective force, not because it must be returned (although ideally it would be, this cannot, by definition, be expected), because while another may not be aware of your Love for them, it causes you to wish to understand them and not to focus on that which separates you from them. If they return it, then this connection is intensified. If it is expected of them to return the Love, the connection has been destroyed. Instead, the other becomes an object (a very valuable object) that one wishes to care for, because something is ultimately desired in return. The outward initiation force exists outside the Self, because the "guilt-giving" function is used, in this case, in pursuit of a reward (to justify taking). The idea of this reward is the initiation force. Also, because Love is a connective force and not a separative force, there would be no need to separate a partner from everyone else and rob them of their freedom to Love you spontaneously. The relationship will continue happily until one or both partners no longer feel/s that they are getting anything out of it anymore. It is then that we see how destructive the forces that they were using actually are.

[...]

Agapooka

Yeah I totally get what you say. But then you say love is inherently unconditional. If you are not then don't read on.

I have a little sidenote on this. I think most of the people call love what you described as 'Evil'. Even I long for the girl I 'love', but at the same time I really do things for her - practically a lot of things - without receiving. In other words I *want* things back, so I want to 'take' but I can go on giving without getting what I want.

Aside from myself what if one gives, do not want to take, but do not receive at all? Does love last in that case?

Because I honestly think I started out from that state. Then I became 'hungry' because of 'starving'.

Sorry if it has became a kind of counseling but (a) most of of the time it's me who give advices, (b) I'm really really interested in this topic, and (c) you seem to know a lot about it albeit in a different perspective from mine.

 

[CorLeonis]

I do not think that there is anything specific which defines love.

However, I believe there are somethings that are absolutely not love, no matter what anyone says.

Abuse. Rape. If these things have happened, or currently happen... you are not in love. I had an argument with someone once... she claimed that you could love your rapist.

I strongly disagree.

I do NOT think you can have love without respect. But you can have respect without love.

 

[neverhood]

I just don't see how you can really measure or define love in anyway. What love is for me might not be what it is for someone else, if i was to define love in anyway I would consider it generic.

only this, and nothing more

 

[Agapooka]

I have a little sidenote on this. I think most of the people call love what you described as 'Evil'. Even I long for the girl I 'love', but at the same time I really do things for her - practically a lot of things - without receiving. In other words I *want* things back, so I want to 'take' but I can go on giving without getting what I want.

Aside from myself what if one gives, do not want to take, but do not receive at all? Does love last in that case?

"Evil" sounds like a strong word, but I don't use it judgementally. It's just that it's selfishly motivated.

Giving doesn't work without receiving, though. They are always together, you see. One feeds the other. That said, you don't need to receive from the same entity to whom you are giving. Also, by giving, you are enabling the receiver to give, as well.

Now, depending on what you believe, this may be simpler than complex. If you believe in a universal Loving force or consciousness, Loving it, or connecting to it, would be sufficient to enable one to give without the need to worry about anything.

Without such a force, however, the system can still work, but it is much more ad hoc in its mechanism.

n.b.: I spell Love with a capital L to distinguish my conception of it from anything else, so that it is clear whether I am referring to my idea of Love, or the word in general and any of the many concepts that can be attached to it.


Agapooka

 

[muir]

It depends on what terms you want to interact with reality and by that I mean....this....your life experience

If you fear it then negative emotions will permeate through your life experience

If you love it, warts and all, then that will shape your experience for the better

Fear or love that's the choice

Every act you do, every thought you have, every emotion you feel comes from either fear or love. The same applies to others as well. Only you can determine which one you let shape your experience

Which one you embrace becomes your core drive. Of course there are more immediate responses which might be uncharacteristic, but which one you embrace will affect your wider life experience

You can't help feeling fear, in the moment, if someone attacks you, but you can decide how you are going to let that affect your overall life experience. If you let the fear from that experience become your default, core drive, then it will then have a shaping effect on your life experience

If you find some way of reconciling yourself to the pain (it comes from fear) and moving on then you have gained mastery of the fear and are able to prevent it then shapeing your life experience

I think that was what Lincoln was meaning when he talked about us needing to be touched by the better angel of our judgement. We each have the capacity for both fear and love; the hard part is listening to the right one.

Sometimes it isn't always clear cut and can come down to how honest we are able to be with ourselves, by asking such things as:

This feeling i am feeling....does it come from love or fear?

This thing i'm doing....am i doing it out of fear or love?

That thought i've just had....is that born out of fear or love?

What those people or that person are/is doing.....are they doing it out of fear or love?

What he/she just said....did they say that out of fear or love?

If they have acted out of fear.....should i fear them or should i recognise that they are the victim of their own fear and instead love them despite the terrible thing they have done? If you can do that then you stop the cycle of karma

It is possible to love your attacker but it is often easier to let fear overpower you and shape your life experience

Fear or love everything comes from those. How we manage them in ourselves, how we see others actions in those terms and how we choose to respond decides our overall life experience

 

[CorLeonis]

It depends on what terms you want to interact with reality and by that I mean....this....your life experience

If you fear it then negative emotions will permeate through your life experience

If you love it, warts and all, then that will shape your experience for the better

Fear or love that's the choice

Every act you do, every thought you have, every emotion you feel comes from either fear or love. The same applies to others as well. Only you can determine which one you let shape your experience

Which one you embrace becomes your core drive. Of course there are more immediate responses which might be uncharacteristic, but which one you embrace will affect your wider life experience

You can't help feeling fear, in the moment, if someone attacks you, but you can decide how you are going to let that affect your overall life experience. If you let the fear from that experience become your default, core drive, then it will then have a shaping effect on your life experience

If you find some way of reconciling yourself to the pain (it comes from fear) and moving on then you have gained mastery of the fear and are able to prevent it then shapeing your life experience

I think that was what Lincoln was meaning when he talked about us needing to be touched by the better angel of our judgement. We each have the capacity for both fear and love; the hard part is listening to the right one.

Sometimes it isn't always clear cut and can come down to how honest we are able to be with ourselves, by asking such things as:

This feeling i am feeling....does it come from love or fear?

This thing i'm doing....am i doing it out of fear or love?

That thought i've just had....is that born out of fear or love?

What those people or that person are/is doing.....are they doing it out of fear or love?

What he/she just said....did they say that out of fear or love?

If they have acted out of fear.....should i fear them or should i recognise that they are the victim of their own fear and instead love them despite the terrible thing they have done? If you can do that then you stop the cycle of karma

It is possible to love your attacker but it is often easier to let fear overpower you and shape your life experience

Fear or love everything comes from those. How we manage them in ourselves, how we see others actions in those terms and how we choose to respond decides our overall life experience

Sorry, but I'm totally with Donnie Darko on this... Fear vs. Love is way too simplistic... we are complex beings and don't just have one motivation for doing things, often.

With that said, I do understand and agree, to an extent.




Except, I'll say it until the cows come home, I don't think that what anyone feels for their attacker is love. They believe it's love, yes. But I don't think that love exists without MUTUAL respect. The victim may believe it's love. But I do not believe it is. Someone who respects you will not attack you.

 

[Agapooka]

Love does not need to be mutual, because it necessarily must exist independently of outside motivations.

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]: I cannot disagree completely - and I can't find anything. I do appreciate hearing a feeling perspective, though.

 

[muir]

Sorry, but I'm totally with Donnie Darko on this... Fear vs. Love is way too simplistic... we are complex beings and don't just have one motivation for doing things, often.

With that said, I do understand and agree, to an extent.




Except, I'll say it until the cows come home, I don't think that what anyone feels for their attacker is love. They believe it's love, yes. But I don't think that love exists without MUTUAL respect. The victim may believe it's love. But I do not believe it is. Someone who respects you will not attack you.

I don't deny the complexity and that is why it is a constant struggle throughout our lives to try and identify what is truely from love and what is truely from fear. Sometimes we only realise we have misinterpreted some time after the event.

Picking the strands apart and learning new perspectives and insights, about ourselves and others...that is part of life's journey and why it is endlessly full of wonder and fascination.

We never stop learning

 

[CorLeonis]

Love does not need to be mutual, because it necessarily must exist independently of outside motivations.

@muir: I cannot disagree completely - and I can't find anything. I do appreciate hearing a feeling perspective, though.

Sorry if I was giving the impression that love needed to be mutual (I don't know if it was directed to me)-- I don't think it does.

However, I do believe that you can't love someone that doesn't respect you. (I said in a different post that I don't you can't have love without respect, but you can have respect without love.)



...hope I at least clarified some of my thoughts if that wasn't directed to me

 

[Agapooka]

Sorry if I was giving the impression that love needed to be mutual (I don't know if it was directed to me)-- I don't think it does.

However, I do believe that you can't love someone that doesn't respect you. (I said in a different post that I don't you can't have love without respect, but you can have respect without love.)



...hope I at least clarified some of my thoughts if that wasn't directed to me

It is true that you can have respect without Love.

And if you Love someone, you will also have what amounts to something vastly beyond respect for them.

But, and this may be where we differ, I don't see why you inherently cannot Love someone who does not respect you. I can see why it's much more difficult and I can see why many can say that they wouldn't want to, but I don't see any reason to believe that it be impossible.


Agapooka

 

[CorLeonis]

I don't deny the complexity and that is why it is a constant struggle throughout our lives to try and identify what is truely from love and what is truely from fear. Sometimes we only realise we have misinterpreted some time after the event.

Picking the strands apart and learning new perspectives and insights, about ourselves and others...that is part of life's journey and why it is endlessly full of wonder and fascination.

We never stop learning

Very well put. Thank you, that definitely made your view accessible to me. <3

 

[CorLeonis]

It is true that you can have respect without Love.

And if you Love someone, you will also have what amounts to something vastly beyond respect for them.

But, and this may be where we differ, I don't see why you inherently cannot Love someone who does not respect you. I can see why it's much more difficult and I can see why many can say that they wouldn't want to, but I don't see any reason to believe that it be impossible.


Agapooka

Hmm.

I see what you're saying. I was really speaking in terms of abuse and rape. That level of disrespect, for your entire being. And something in me feels deep in my guts that someone that says they love their attacker is very damaged and confused. And I don't think that that's love, even if they may think it is. Know what I mean?

With that said... just basic lack of respect... meh. I guess I could see that someone could think they love that person... but I would tend to think of it more as obsession than love. But I wouldn't say it's impossible, I suppose.

 

[This]

Contrary to popular belief I don't believe love has to be a two way street and I do believe that you can be in love with someone that's not in love with you.

 

[just me]

No Corinthians quotes here I see. Lot of wisdom there.

I Corinthians 13, charity as love...
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned , and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity suffereth long , and is kind ; charity envieth not; charity vauntethhttp://forums.infjs.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-a not itself , is not puffed up , 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly , seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked , thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;http://forums.infjs.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-b 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth : but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail ;http://forums.infjs.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-c whether there be tongues, they shall cease ; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away . 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come , then that which is in part shall be done away .http://forums.infjs.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-d 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thoughthttp://forums.infjs.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-e as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly ;http://forums.infjs.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-f but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known . 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

[randomsomeone]

what is the nature of this force?

The nature of this force might well be the very nature of God/Divinity (and visa versa)...complete, unalloyed, unending love.

I see destruction as an intrinsic result of not Loving.

Actually this is very consistent with the true, more complete Christian view.

Lot of wisdom there. I Corinthians 13, charity as love...

Yes, there are some fascinating/enlightening perspectives presented here that all seem to revolve around the centrality of love. This makes me wonder if love is a bit more linked to the Divine Centrality than we give it credit for, and that love is linked to core aspects of the Divine Nature. The bright radiance of this Nature is love, all love, every love...and ripples through all things, micro to macro. Of course, this takes love to an entirely different level in regards to it's nature.

So based on this, how we choose or find ourselves relating to this radiant love would make a big, big difference in just about every way. This would makes sense in that the ultimate goal of spirituality is about connection to the Divine. Without connection, our selves, according to our truest, highest nature and destiny is anemic, and incomplete, and hidden, and sometimes even effaced. We "belong" to life within the Divine life.

Of course, if we think of God as a "celestial old man in a beard" this makes little sense (and even seems silly), but if we really listen to what is said carefully, we find something far more mystical, and far more immense, and far more all-encompassing at work. Since we "see through a glass darkly" I am not sure we can even begin to comprehend the magnitude and richness of the love which we see only as reflections within our daily human existence. Bright as it may be, the Divine Love is vastly more so.

 

[Curiosilla]

I believe its important for us to know the structure of things ( everything we can see, touch, smell, hear, feel) in order for us to be at ease with ourselves and our surroundings.

So we ask about the essence of things-- who or what or where or why--if..then...but...

Love--- We all have it, we all see it, feel it, want it...

I can't define it because, like CorLeonis:

I do not think that there is anything specific which defines love.

and I dont need to understand it's essence. I'm just so happy it's there.

 

[randomsomeone]

I'm just so happy it's there.

And that is truly a wonderful response!!

 

[Agapooka]

The nature of this force might well be the very nature of God/Divinity (and visa versa)...complete, unalloyed, unending love.

Actually this is very consistent with the true, more complete Christian view.


Yes, there are some fascinating/enlightening perspectives presented here that all seem to revolve around the centrality of love. This makes me wonder if love is a bit more linked to the Divine Centrality than we give it credit for, and that love is linked to core aspects of the Divine Nature. The bright radiance of this Nature is love, all love, every love...and ripples through all things, micro to macro. Of course, this takes love to an entirely different level in regards to it's nature.

So based on this, how we choose or find ourselves relating to this radiant love would make a big, big difference in just about every way. This would makes sense in that the ultimate goal of spirituality is about connection to the Divine. Without connection, our selves, according to our truest, highest nature and destiny is anemic, and incomplete, and hidden, and sometimes even effaced. We "belong" within the Divine life.

Of course, if we think of God as a "celestial old man in a beard" this makes little sense (and even seems silly), but if we really listen to what is said carefully, we find something far more mystical, and far more immense, and far more all-encompassing at work. Since we "see through a glass darkly" I am not sure we can even begin to comprehend the magnitude and richness of the love which we see only as reflections within our daily existence.

Ah, I don't leave the divine out of this, but I honestly don't see Love in the god of the Bible. I read it a number of times and I just don't see it. I do believe, however, that the concept of Love can be understood without a book - as a concept. Was it Constantine who claimed that every human has a "god shaped hole that only god can fill"? Replace the word "god" with "Love" and you will be much closer to the truth. Now, is Love divine? I see it as a universal force, so already, this is saying a lot...


Agapooka

 

[randomsomeone]

Replace the word "god" with "Love" and you will be much closer to the truth.

Yes, I think this, too. Once the words and concepts, often trivialized, are broken down to their basic core truths, and then reasembled, the essence of both appear remarkably alike. However, from what I can tell, love eminates from the Centrality, but so much so that the emination can appear exactly like the Centrality. Still, love remains an emination, albeit a wonderfully luminous one, and the Centrality from which it emerges is even more unfathomable. This is how I experience it anyway. A child may experience love coming (emanating) from a parent, but the child can seldom grasp the deeper reality the parent is truly operating from...the hope, the value, the delight, the correction/training without condemnation, the care, the sacrifice, the knowing (from birth), the familial imprint. Perhaps it is similar...just a thought.

I acknowledge there is a way to view biblical literature through a less-than-loving prism, but as a whole story arc into the New Testament, I think it is a revelation whose entire overarching theme is love. In this case it speaks to love not just as a static force, but also a force that is motivated and acts...it values us, seeks, speaks, and creates connection, even where none could be made. I think it is a very unique and valuable perspective that is offered here concerning love.

Even though I both believe and observe this, I must state that I am not simply seeking to switch out big fancy words to interject a religious sentiment. Quite the opposite. I am trying to deconstruct those more overused, oversentimentalized words to get at a real essence, a truth that is far, far larger, more real and more vivid than the words so frequently used to encapsulate them. The suppositions and assumptions I may have made must be "unknown" by me in order to grasp the fuller meaning at all.

 

[Agapooka]

Hmm.

I see what you're saying. I was really speaking in terms of abuse and rape. That level of disrespect, for your entire being. And something in me feels deep in my guts that someone that says they love their attacker is very damaged and confused. And I don't think that that's love, even if they may think it is. Know what I mean?

With that said... just basic lack of respect... meh. I guess I could see that someone could think they love that person... but I would tend to think of it more as obsession than love. But I wouldn't say it's impossible, I suppose.

I am not Christian, but I still think Jesus said it best, when he said "Forgive them, for they know not what they do."

"Evil", as I call it, or "not Love" is ignorant of what it is doing. It might be aware of the action and it might have a purpose for this action, but this action and this purpose would seem completely misguided if they understood Love. I am willing to make the following assumption: If one were aware of what Love is in its deepest sense, they would not desire anything else. That said, I believe that we live in a world where even most of the most well-intentioned people do not know.

And forgiveness... as I see it, forgiveness is nothing more than understanding.


Agapooka