[INFJ] Manipulation

[Misty]

Sooooo nice to see someone else is picking this up as well lol


Pretty sure that whacked empath he dated might have set the scene. The first time I got my ass racked she was used as a reference, and some other posts since Ive noticed lol

I like you. You get it. ^_^ #468

 

[HJpAjcdO0X]

Are INFJs inherently manipulative? The diplomatic, influence-seeking and, ironically, ‘manipulative’ answer is ‘no’, but the true answer is probably ‘yes’, since the function of Extroverted Feeling (Fe) is fundamentally concerned with having influence upon the world (as a judging function) by mobilising social forces. For instance, one will often find INFJs engaging in ad hominems – some more subtle than others – in an attempt to reduce the credibility of their subjects in the eyes of others. Their favourite strategy – and this seems to be quite universal – is to make claims against the social competence of their targets. They’ll call them retarded, or unhealthy, or mentally ill; they’ll say they need therapy or insinuate that they have character flaws which will make them unsuccessful with the opposite sex.

Their lack of a sense of righteousness forces them to engage with the world in a way in which ‘truth’ is not a consideration; that their immediate personal goals trump any ‘higher values’. Their lack of Fi means that they often do not even have a vision of any such hierarchy of values, leading to a general ‘ends justify the means’ approach to life, as has already been mentioned. That is, they are forced to resort to curses and hexes based upon some fictitious notion of their own ‘intuition’; an emblem of their own powerlessness to the same degree as the ancient crone was forced to rely upon the same strategies.

@Asa you messaged me in regards to my supposed "targeting", which I'm guessing applied to rule 3 which prohibits attacking or provoking another member or group of members by means of insult, ad hominem, rudeness or button-pushing.

It is not clearly stated what defines a group, so we can assume that a "group" includes INFJs which are under heavy attack using assumptions. However it seems if one defends their statements by labeling them an opinion it's excusable. Rule 3 also states insults and rudeness are not permissible however, @Misty pointed out several times how insulting these claims were and not shit was said to this guy, wtf?? "Button-Pushing" isnt tolerated either, and the statements made in what I quoted are clear examples of exactly that. All statements that rudely target, insult, and push the buttons of a "group". To anyone else reading this, remember to be slick in your wording by claiming they are "opinions that can be agreed or disagreed upon" and you will be excused apparently.
So either the rules need to be more explicit and fair or as a staff member you can delete my comment, profile, whatever you see fit. If rules apply to one person but not another here, then placing a ban on me is just fine. I want no part of a place that operates in that manner.

 

[dZpADTLrPmX4c]

hiyo @CaitlinRae2192
It was my understanding that, between now & that post, mods did speak with him and work things out, inasmuch as could be. I'm not entirely sure, but I thought things had been settled.

In any case I hope you stick abouts, even if as a lurker. I rather like your presence & posts here <3

 

[Jonah Caan]

I loved this place, I really did. At one point in my life it was my saviour. As I think back now I remember the very first person to make me feel welcome here was Jenny Daniella I was feeling lost and alone and so many great people on here gave me the comfort and will to go on in life.

But it's become somewhat convoluted and bitter. I was bullied off in a way by a very select few (some of whom themselves have since been treated the same and have reached out).

I've just logged on after a while, feeling low and vulnerable (it's a [door-slammed] loved one's birthday tomorrow and it suddenly hit me, although I'm doing so well in life now compared to before). And it's disheartening to see the same thing is still going on, especially seeing it's having a negative effect on others too.

Then again, it's beautiful to see that the Stars are still here, shining their light; I guess that's the main thing.

I guess I'm feeling a bit more emotional than I do normally, but I just wanna wish everyone well, happiness inside and out and just a good day filled with the people and things you individually love.

I'm waffling but this thread just got me thinking about the fine line between influencing and manipulating and it's given me something to think about and hopefully grow from.

P.S. I think narcissists are an INFJ's blind spot (have been mine all my life anyway haha), it's good to get the training here

P.P.S (is that a thing?). I think I have the traits of a narcissist, maybe picked it up from the main people in my life. But it's definitely something I'm wary of and thinking about in life atm. And this goes back to influencing and manipulation again. I'll stop, lol.
x

 

[Misty]

@Asa you messaged me in regards to my supposed "targeting", which I'm guessing applied to rule 3 which prohibits attacking or provoking another member or group of members by means of insult, ad hominem, rudeness or button-pushing.

It is not clearly stated what defines a group, so we can assume that a "group" includes INFJs which are under heavy attack using assumptions. However it seems if one defends their statements by labeling them an opinion it's excusable. Rule 3 also states insults and rudeness are not permissible however, @Misty pointed out several times how insulting these claims were and not shit was said to this guy, wtf?? "Button-Pushing" isnt tolerated either, and the statements made in what I quoted are clear examples of exactly that. All statements that rudely target, insult, and push the buttons of a "group". To anyone else reading this, remember to be slick in your wording by claiming they are "opinions that can be agreed or disagreed upon" and you will be excused apparently.
So either the rules need to be more explicit and fair or as a staff member you can delete my comment, profile, whatever you see fit. If rules apply to one person but not another here, then placing a ban on me is just fine. I want no part of a place that operates in that manner.

They talked to him often. So the same stuff is said, only now from blogs which are private ( save for a select few ). And now it's ok. -.-

 

[SpecialEdition]

Jesus Christ.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

Again, enough.

Do you think INFJs are manipulative? Have you ever been accidentally or purposefully manipulative? Have you been manipulated by an INFJ?

I answered the OP.

I'm not responsible for others imputing some motive to my words which isn't there.

I, and no member, certainly don't deserve to be openly gossiped about like this, or insinuations made about what my intentions are or what I'm doing in 'private blogs' (which is a untrue btw).

These are months old posts being dragged back up and a member targeted by some kind of bully bandwagon.

It's very toxic. Now leave me alone.

 

[Misty]

Again, enough.


I answered the OP.

I'm not responsible for others imputing some motive to my words which isn't there.

I, and no member, certainly don't deserve to be openly gossiped about like this, or insinuations made about what my intentions are or what I'm doing in 'private blogs' (which is a untrue btw).

These are months old posts being dragged back up and a member targeted by some kind of bully bandwagon.

It's very toxic. Now leave me alone.

Lol.

No one is gossiping. I answered her question, and I am allowed to do that. It's pretty hilarious though when you say these things, at this point. Because you are the captain of the bully bandwagon - calling INFJ cowards, manipulators, nazis, and other such colorful phrases.

But we're the toxic ones when we don't like that.

 

[ESC2367]

"With great power comes great responsability"

Manipulation is everywhere. From the commercials we see to the reactions people have when they see your new outfit.

It goes as far as when we conversate with each other, manipulation is the process of transmitting our views to another. Which is different from inspiration or influence.

Influence is when we look up to another and think "i wanna be more like them."

With manipulation, it's more a shaping of another's paradigm to match your own.

I could provide several examples however my own personal bias would be seen.

I choose to influence rather than manipulate. as influence causes a gain for you, and manipulation causes a gain for me and a change in you.

I really love invoking ...well i am unsure if i could say that specific genre... it's often misplaced as Psychological Thriller... i guess we can call it "Psychological Surrealiam" (a few examples, Mr.Nobody, every David Lynch creation, Momento, etc.) That genre... that has a diverse and suggestive word followed by "mind"

After some confusion... one can focus on what really matters; giving this post a like.

:3 this right here is an example of kind hearted manipulation. (as most others tend to have a more darker intent.)

It's primarily based on intentions of the manipulator.

:O i may be evil.

 

[o2b]

Wow, what a thread I bumped into.

At the highest of levels, my intuition tells me that character does not mandate type and type does not mandate character - whether good, bad, or neutral.

 

[zxgjhnmfm659]

There's levels to it, imo.

Final level you learn to let people change themselves through interacting with you, ideally, with you not doing anything at all. (Let them spin out, dizzy from reflecting themselves until they understand what they want)

For the levels below this one, you're more likely to react to people who require assistance or change either way so you intervene out of the "Hero" mindset.

For those who see the opposite end, of course they'll say it's manipulation.

If you (the person) want something, and someone (the INFJ) steers you towards what their unconscious mind isn't directly telling them (the person),

either you're:

A) conscious enough to know you need help to get pushed in the right direction from the INFJ (your unconscious desire)

or

B) you'll see it as a form of control because you can't understand why the INFJ can understand something you, yourself does not.

----

Edit: Wait there's drama here? Hahahhahahahahaha sick.

 

[Anomaly]

All communication falls under the umbrella of manipulation, of any type, not distinct to any particular people group. I think some of it is malicious, some of it is not. It is prudent to first ask yourself if you are being clear. Consider if you are being truthful. Weigh any insights or biases, which come to the surface. However, it is equally integral not to make presumptions about other's intentions. Sometimes, those assumptions derive from missing information or misunderstanding, which could easily be smoothed out given more questioning or time spent seeking clarity. Some manipulation is ill-intentioned, but I'd say it is equally disingenuous to calculate the sum of a person's character based on assumptions or projection of another individual's values. Further, to compare that individual to others you've interacted with, as if they are somehow complicit in malfeasance due to some fortuitous commonality in isolation, is grievous indeed.

How is this a subject of contention? We all have the capacity for evil, and an equivalent capacity for good. It is a constant choice, which determines where we fall, and whether we pick ourselves back up. There are no pedestals here. We are all eye to eye.

 

[o2b]

I do want to add one more concept because I think it is important.

Perhaps INFJ's are more predisposed to manipulate. (I am not saying we are, I am just being hypothetical.)

There is a world of difference between predisposition and consent to predisposition.

People have tendencies to do all sorts of bad things. And tendency may be resisted.

 

[Misty]

Manipulative behaviour is born of manipulative intentions. The ability to manipulate plagues all people, indeed, irrespective of mtbi type, race, or gender. Every person has the capacity for good and evil. Every person has the choice to manipulate another in any given situation.

Malevolent manipulation, however, only serves the master who wields it as a tool of destruction and self gratification. It is intended for darker gain. This behaviour is a choice, plain and simple.

It seems to me that willful manipulation is never something done for the greater good. It feels like there ought to be a seperate word entirely for persuading one to do something that is truly in their interest, like helping a drug addict get clean.

But even then, this persuading can become a form of playing God, which we aren't. And in this light, manipulation is negative, no matter what the intentions, good or evil.

 

[zxgjhnmfm659]

But even then, this persuading can become a form of playing God, which we aren't. And in this light, manipulation is negative, no matter what the intentions, good or evil.

I don't 100% disagree but I thought I'd point something out

Playing god would only apply to those who believe in it. Lets say someone of Christian religion with Christian values.

What you perceive as playing god is manipulation, which is considered negative, whether good or evil, yes?

What if someone else sees it as "tough love"? If this is the case, and all manipulation is inherently bad,

then why is telling someone "you're ruining your life with drugs, you should get help, I know a few rehabilitation centers that could" considered.. playing God too?

It could come down to everything, anyone says is a form of manipulation when you apply anything religious over the top.

Like what I just said above could be seen as manipulating Misty's opinion to suit my own needs when I'm supplying analytical critique to her idea to help create context to understand her point of view, because my view point is different than hers.

I personally, try to reframe from that line of thinking because it could seriously muddle an opinion or an argument where you're looking to get across some good information, of course, we're all here for our opinions.

---

In regards to manipulation, synonyms are:
Administration, Control, Direction, Handling, Use, Hack, Manage, Maneuver, negotiate, Play, Swing, Take, Treat, Cope (with), Contend (With), Grapple (With)

So to say, all manipulation is inherently bad is going to require some context because more than half of it, is good.

Glass half full, or Glass half empty, it returns to personal opinion at the end of the day (but that can be boring and lacks growth)

 

[Misty]

I don't 100% disagree but I thought I'd point something out

Playing god would only apply to those who believe in it. Lets say someone of Christina religion with Christian values.

What you perceive as playing god is manipulation, which is considered negative, whether good or evil, yes?

What if someone else sees it as "tough love"? If this is the case, and all manipulation is inherently bad,

then why is telling someone "you're ruining your life with drugs, you should get help, I know a few rehabilitation centers that could" considered.. playing God?

It could come down to everything, anyone says is a form of manipulation like what I just said above, when you apply anything religious over the top.

I personally try to reframe from that line of thinking because it could seriously muddle an opinion or an argument where you're looking to get across some good information.

---

In regards to manipulation, synonyms are:
Administration, Control, Direction, Handling, Use, Hack, Manage, Maneuver, negotiate, Play, Swing, Take, Treat, Cope (with), Contend (With), Grapple (With)

So to say, all manipulation is inherently bad is going to require some context because more than half of it, is good.

Glass half full, or Glass half empty, it returns to personal opinion at the end of the day (but that can be boring and lacks growth)

That's exactly why I feel like there ought to be another definition entirely, such as persuading, as doing it to help a loved one on drugs is good, of course. I'd personally not just sit and watch them self destruct.

But it is important that in any situation we examine our intentions to ensure they are constructed around the actual good of another and not just ourselves. Sometimes I word myself poorly when trying to make a greater point. It happens. ^_^

 

[zxgjhnmfm659]

Sometimes I word myself poorly when trying to make a greater point. It happens. ^_^

*gets up real close and whispers in Misty's ear*

you should have seen how many times I edited that post

 

[Misty]

*gets up real close and whispers in Misty's ear*

you should have seen how many times I edited that post

I feel your pain. I, as well.

Sometimes I feel like I just can't get my words out because the thought is too big or too tangled with other concepts & ideas.

 

[Anomaly]

*gets up real close and whispers in Misty's ear*

you should have seen how many times I edited that post

Relatable. Or I keep it open, editing it until I think it is coherent.

@Misty I think you word yourself well. Our inner critic, it seems, is a real you know what. haha.

 

[ESC2367]

I often just delete mine... i tend to second guess my self or get scared someone might take it the i wasn't intending... (which happens a lot for some reason.)