Masculinity and Femininity

slant said:
Hahaha.

People keep mistaking me as male :o

Gender roles are pretty screwed up online.
Last night I watched this movie I hadn't seen for a long time "What Dreams May Come" and a quote struck me as needing to be added to this discussion.

"The old baggage, old roles of authority, who's the teacher, who's the father, gets in the way of who we really are to each other."

What do you people think of that? Are gender roles liable to skewer a person's perception of the actual person, or are things like gender part of a person's identity? I had this discussion with my cousin, and we went on to mention that he believes that no one has a set identity. For example, he could easily change his gender. So if gender and such things aren't set in stone, than what do gender roles really have to do with anything?
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I think it's just from the go with the flow/conformist mentality that most people have. If you want to bring MBTI into it (since this is an MBTI forum), Sensors make up the majority of the population who are stereotypically conformists, especially SJs. Of course, I know you label yourself a Sensor, Slant, and I don't see you as a conformist. It would seem counter-productive to replace society's stereotypes with MBTI stereotypes but if I had to choose I would definately prefer the MBTI ones. People can choose what MBTI type they feel represents them the best, or they can choose not to pick one. However male and female stereotypes are forced upon people at birth. No one ever asked me, "Would you rather be represented by the male or female stereotype?" It was picked for me. At least I got to pick that I'm an INFJ, even if everything doesn't fit me, because almost every description fits me. The male stereotype that society picked for me barely fits. Plus 16 choices definately beats 2.
 
Solstice said:
I think it's just from the go with the flow/conformist mentality that most people have. If you want to bring MBTI into it (since this is an MBTI forum), Sensors make up the majority of the population who are stereotypically conformists, especially SJs. Of course, I know you label yourself a Sensor, Slant, and I don't see you as a conformist. It would seem counter-productive to replace society's stereotypes with MBTI stereotypes but if I had to choose I would definately prefer the MBTI ones. People can choose what MBTI type they feel represents them the best, or they can choose not to pick one. However male and female stereotypes are forced upon people at birth. No one ever asked me, "Would you rather be represented by the male or female stereotype?" It was picked for me. At least I got to pick that I'm an INFJ, even if everything doesn't fit me, because almost every description fits me. The male stereotype that society picked for me barely fits. Plus 16 choices definately beats 2.
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Yes! A higher number of choices is better... just look how well people from diffrent countries don't judge each other!
 
Ortorin said:
Yes! A higher number of choices is better... just look how well people from diffrent countries don't judge each other!
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I'm pretty sure you were being sarcastic, but nationality also falls into the category of traits you can't choose. I never chose to be an American so why should I be subject to the stereotypes that go with it? The main point I was getting at with my last post is that it'd be better if people could choose the labels for themselves, if they even want any, instead of having others pick it for them, or "society" picking it for them.
 
Solstice said:
I think it's just from the go with the flow/conformist mentality that most people have. If you want to bring MBTI into it (since this is an MBTI forum), Sensors make up the majority of the population who are stereotypically conformists, especially SJs. Of course, I know you label yourself a Sensor, Slant, and I don't see you as a conformist. It would seem counter-productive to replace society's stereotypes with MBTI stereotypes but if I had to choose I would definately prefer the MBTI ones. People can choose what MBTI type they feel represents them the best, or they can choose not to pick one. However male and female stereotypes are forced upon people at birth. No one ever asked me, "Would you rather be represented by the male or female stereotype?" It was picked for me. At least I got to pick that I'm an INFJ, even if everything doesn't fit me, because almost every description fits me. The male stereotype that society picked for me barely fits. Plus 16 choices definately beats 2.
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I would just like to point out that it was not me who decided I was an ISTP; it was you, the forum members. Also: defiantly.
 
slant said:
I would just like to point out that it was not me who decided I was an ISTP; it was you, the forum members. Also: defiantly.
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Oh I never picked it out for you. Why wouldn't you pick it for yourself? Surely you know yourself better than any of us here. Or if you don't like any of them you can just say you don't fit in well with any of the types. What was the "defiantly" supposed to go with?
 
I personally despise gender roles...mainly because the things I'm most attracted to (in terms of art & livelihood) are very 'male' in nature. I'm girly on the surface, but deep down I'm a guy. Sometimes though, I feel I need to apologize for NOT embracing my stereotypical-femaleness. I do wonder if the way I am naturally has sabotaged my efforts to find love, romance, marriage, (not too keen on children.) I sometimes ask myself if I were more cloying, wore sluttier clothes, or was a selfless-martyr, would I attract more men? I'm definitely not like most women I know, especially women of my age. I don't cook. I don't clean. I don't have a compulsion to take care of people or pets. And I'm often made to feel guilty about this.
 
That's not necessarily true. Most of it's society, but some of it is somewhat true, especially in regards to what hormones do to people (maybe not to the extent we're lead to believe, either, but it's still there)
 
gloomy-optimist said:
That's not necessarily true. Most of it's society, but some of it is somewhat true, especially in regards to what hormones do to people (maybe not to the extent we're lead to believe, either, but it's still there)
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I've always sort of wondered about hormones and whether or not they actually cause us to feel certain emotions. I won't deny that emotions can be directly linked to the physical body (I get physically sick a lot from stress), but I don't really believe in the whole "my hormones are controlling my mind" thing that especially a lot of teenagers seem to have. I'm perfectly fine and can still think. Sure, I'm a bit more irritable when I'm sick (an example of physical affecting emotion) but I don't have to act that way, and I try not to. Hormones might sway the minds of those who care not to control their mind, but those people are usually the conforming types of people anyway. Hmm... I wonder which way it goes. Emotions affecting hormones or hormones affecting emotions?
 
Hormones shouldn't be used as an excuse to allow certain actions....that's drawing the line. However, women and men do have some differences in the brain; women are more prone to caretaking instincts, and men are more prone to aggression, among other things. That's kind of a generalization, and naturally everyone under the sun isn't like that because everyone doesn't have the same balance of hormones. But you can't neglect the fact that it is there.
 
Ortorin said:
To change how society, you would need ALOT of time, and a GIANT effort. I do not see that happening...ever. (just being a realist)
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The very fact that this conversation is taking place is proof that change is happening. You're making references to human evolution which has been a slow process to this point, so in this context attitudes are changing pretty rapidly imo and it is issues like this that are the new focus of that evolution.
 
Gender roles serve to maintain the order of patriarchy, or at least what is left of it. Amythyst is right- the fact that this is discussed so much shows that things are changing.

As far as the hormone thing goes, I'd be skeptical of that. I don't think our hormones make us predetermined to any caretaking and cooking behaviors any more than they make men act like cads. But I'd have to really look into it. So far, it seems to me that gender roles are social constructs to maintain an order. But I haven't looked into the effects of different hormone levels on men and women and then compare behavior. Are there studies like that? Where hormone levels are measured and behaviors are evaluated?

To go off topic: Slant, I never thought you were a sensor.
 
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There was a vote? I'm usually oblivious to things like that.
 
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