Masculinity and Femininity

Ortorin said:
Go tell some ageing, draft dodging hippy that war is the real solution to everything and see how far you get.

To change how society, you would need ALOT of time, and a GIANT effort. I do not see that happening...ever. (just being a realist)
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Really? I have hope that society will change, over time of course. It wouldn't be an overnight thing; I agree on that. But look how far we've come to be rid of gender stereotypes. A century ago, women weren't even allowed to vote in America. Now they're working just as much as men. I think that's a huge step forward in an equal world, so why not continue? Social reform is a little difficult, but a lot of the political reform has already come. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but someday it could happen.
 
Solstice said:
Really? I have hope that society will change, over time of course. It wouldn't be an overnight thing; I agree on that. But look how far we've come to be rid of gender stereotypes. A century ago, women weren't even allowed to vote in America. Now they're working just as much as men. I think that's a huge step forward in an equal world, so why not continue? Social reform is a little difficult, but a lot of the political reform has already come. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but someday it could happen.
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Maybe I tend to see the bad side in people more often, but I will stand by what I think untill you can prove to me that society will actualy accept this.
 
Ortorin said:
Maybe I tend to see the bad side in people more often, but I will stand by what I think untill you can prove to me that society will actualy accept this.
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Hmm... Well, it's not like I can "ask" society if they'll accept getting rid of gender stereotypes. Social reforms have to happen by being supported by the majority, or at least a minority that has a lot of influence over the general population.

I think a lot of people already do accept getting rid of stereotypes. Maybe not enough to make a huge difference, but enough to not feel completely alone if you object to stereotypes. Maybe if the goal was worded differently more people would support it. Like instead of saying, "We should undo thousands of years of traditional practices because some people feel offended," people who support getting rid of gender stereotypes should say, "We should try to create a world where people are considered equal in order to benefit society." It might not convince everyone but I'm sure a lot more people would be for it if that was the message and mentality.
 
There will be a day where technology will have found a way to make hybrid people without the means of traditional reproduction.

At that point, gender roles are absolutely useless. Until that day, the strength and influence of the concepts are slowly fading as the human race advances.
 
slant said:
There will be a day where technology will have found a way to make hybrid people without the means of traditional reproduction.

At that point, gender roles are absolutely useless. Until that day, the strength and influence of the concepts are slowly fading as the human race advances.
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On that day, they will create a giant womb-room to gestate male babies, and kill off all the females. ;D
 
Solstice said:
Hmm... Well, it's not like I can "ask" society if they'll accept getting rid of gender stereotypes. Social reforms have to happen by being supported by the majority, or at least a minority that has a lot of influence over the general population.

I think a lot of people already do accept getting rid of stereotypes. Maybe not enough to make a huge difference, but enough to not feel completely alone if you object to stereotypes. Maybe if the goal was worded differently more people would support it. Like instead of saying, "We should undo thousands of years of traditional practices because some people feel offended," people who support getting rid of gender stereotypes should say, "We should try to create a world where people are considered equal in order to benefit society." It might not convince everyone but I'm sure a lot more people would be for it if that was the message and mentality.
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Ok, now your being silly.

You'll never get rid of a "stereotype", that's more or less a common characteristic that runs through a group of people that can be infured that one in the group has that characteristic without actualy knowing them. Saying your going to get rid of the gender role stereotype is saying that your gonna convice black people that white people CAN dance... never gonna happen, stereotypes have a grain of truth in them so they will never die.

Now if you want to get rid of being "forced" into the sterotype... that's a diffrent story.

I still say it won't happen, but at least it's something that "could" happen.
 
You have been weakened by your interaction with the worthless sex. Your mannliness sapped. You will be sent with The Men to the forests to hunt and drink the blood of a young buck.
 
Ortorin said:
Ok, now your being silly.

You'll never get rid of a "stereotype", that's more or less a common characteristic that runs through a group of people that can be infured that one in the group has that characteristic without actualy knowing them. Saying your going to get rid of the gender role stereotype is saying that your gonna convice black people that white people CAN dance... never gonna happen, stereotypes have a grain of truth in them so they will never die.

Now if you want to get rid of being "forced" into the sterotype... that's a diffrent story.

I still say it won't happen, but at least it's something that "could" happen.
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Well a lot of stereotypes are supported by the media to be practically 100% fact. Look around the internet even. You could find thousands of articles about "Understanding women" or "How to figure out your boyfriend" and other things like that. The unfortunate part is that many uneducated individuals buy into that kind of stuff and begin to believe that there is a clear cut different between every man and woman. But the people who control the media don't really care about what effects they're having on the people because the people will still buy their magazines/watch their movies which will make them more money. I'm not saying gender stereotypes come completely from the media, but it doesn't help when you see all of these things saying, "Men and women are completely different and will never understand each other," as if they're a completely different species.
 
Solstice said:
Well a lot of stereotypes are supported by the media to be practically 100% fact. Look around the internet even. You could find thousands of articles about "Understanding women" or "How to figure out your boyfriend" and other things like that. The unfortunate part is that many uneducated individuals buy into that kind of stuff and begin to believe that there is a clear cut different between every man and woman. But the people who control the media don't really care about what effects they're having on the people because the people will still buy their magazines/watch their movies which will make them more money. I'm not saying gender stereotypes come completely from the media, but it doesn't help when you see all of these things saying, "Men and women are completely different and will never understand each other," as if they're a completely different species.
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The media has no agenda, save for profits. They only churn out that bullshit you're talking about because it sells. Because people want it; because they believe in it. Guaranteed our society decides to abolish gender roles and these stereotypes you two are speaking of, advertisers and all those other media moguls are all over that... marketing oh, say, Axe Androgyny or something to that effect.

People need to become more educated, perhaps. Maybe hip young parents need to stop buying baby dolls and trucks for their kids; encouraging them to play with whatever suits them individually instead of telling them to choose from one designated category. We'd have to alter the way we think about most things. Good word! Even food is gendered! Steaks are manly, salads are for women considering their figures.
Blah.
 
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I guess I can't really change anything either, alone. To be honest I'm not even sure how to change society to be more tolerant, when there's so many people who are closed-minded and only accept what they're taught. :(

I think people like to assign genders to objects (like food, as ctrl alt del mentioned) because it allows them to make decisions quickly. Like if you think of the position a parent is probably in when preparing for a child, they don't want to have to spend a lot of them thinking about what toys to buy them when they might already be searching for a new house to buy if their current abode is too small, and other stressful things like that. With stereotyping it cuts the load so they can think, "Oh I'm having a girl so I'll just buy her a doll because all girls love that." They wouldn't know any better and wouldn't want to think differently because it wouldn't be convenient for them in the situation.

So I guess my conclusion is not enough people want to think in the world. I thought I was being the optimist too.
 
Solstice said:
I guess I can't really change anything either, alone. To be honest I'm not even sure how to change society to be more tolerant, when there's so many people who are closed-minded and only accept what they're taught. :(

I think people like to assign genders to objects (like food, as ctrl alt del mentioned) because it allows them to make decisions quickly. Like if you think of the position a parent is probably in when preparing for a child, they don't want to have to spend a lot of them thinking about what toys to buy them when they might already be searching for a new house to buy if their current abode is too small, and other stressful things like that. With stereotyping it cuts the load so they can think, "Oh I'm having a girl so I'll just buy her a doll because all girls love that." They wouldn't know any better and wouldn't want to think differently because it wouldn't be convenient for them in the situation.

So I guess my conclusion is not enough people want to think in the world. I thought I was being the optimist too.
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Yep. Doing what we've been taught forever because that's the way it is, is the easy, mindless, and convenient way. It's easier to adopt and go with the flow than it is to hold to your ideals and work to implement them in your life and set an example for others. Don't give up the good fight.
 
Ortorin said:
Saying your going to get rid of the gender role stereotype is saying that your gonna convice [sic] black people that white people CAN dance... never gonna happen, stereotypes have a grain of truth in them so they will never die.
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Ex-SQUEEZE-ME???


Young buck you need to do your homework.


(BTW did I mention I have a hall pass?)
 
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I believe, that harmful society stereotypes can and should be changed. Look at the feminist movement for example - even though I don't necessary agree with all of it's goals, the result has been a much better and fairer society today. And it all has happened in a course of just one lifetime, it didn't take a million years to change.

There are a lot of plain wrong assumptions about gender that still lurk in our minds. A bit surprisingly, one of the darkest areas is on male upbringing. One researcher in her blog describes the situation:
The saddest thing I learned in my research on little boys is that boy babies are left to cry in their cribs much, much longer than girl babies. <...> Research showed that male children were told to play by themselves more often, were engaged in conversation less, disciplined more, and received less overall attention by their parents. The kicker? These parents wholeheartedly believed that they were treating their children the same!!! They were shown video footage of how they treated their male and female children, and some of these parents CRIED because they felt so bad.
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That statement above saddens me to a great extent - how can we be so ignorant and blind? We can change things in our lifetime. And we can start by raising our own children better if we take time to examine and understand our beliefs.
 
Well, mistake is that parents sometimes (often) act different with male and female children. At the end we have boys who have problem to talk about their emotions and problems because they were thought it is wrong. Ofcourse, they have to show how they feel so sometimes they have problems with agression, anger, violence etc.
Dam Kindlon wrote book about these problems: Raising Cains.
It would be nice when we could be free from stereotypes, but what do you think - is it possible or we all have our sterotypes and we are not aware of them?
 
RetardedMonkey said:
I hate stereotyping as it is, let alone GENDER stereotyping!

I don't think that a man can act too feminine nor a woman too masculine. I don't believe in "gender roles" either. I think we are doing a great disservice to ourselves as a society by assigning gender roles and negatively judging those who chose a lifestyle or role that goes against what is considered social norms.

I've known plenty of men who would make FAR better stay at home parents than many women I've met. I have also met many women who have far better qualities (at things that would be considered more "masculine") like sports and auto mechanics.

In all situations I think we should be able to express our true feelings and behave in ways we feel appropriate and it be viewed as a HUMAN reaction. We shouldn't have to worry about HOW we should respond based on the assigned and accepted male or female roles.

Ok, that's my little rant. I'm done now. :-) (I hope it made sense.)
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yeah! what retardedmonkey said..

ahahahahha

hey!!! do you like monkeys???? your avatar si cute..... i want a pet monkey!!!!!! :mwaa:
 
I've confused some of you male INFJs for female... if that helps.
 
soulseeker said:
yeah! what retardedmonkey said..

ahahahahha

hey!!! do you like monkeys???? your avatar si cute..... i want a pet monkey!!!!!! :mwaa:
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I LOVE MONKEYS!!!!:m015: They are my most favorite animal EVER!!! I've ALWAYS wanted a pet monkey, maybe one day. Oh! Thank you for the avatar compliment!! :m107:
 
Wolfe said:
I've confused some of you male INFJs for female... if that helps.
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Hahaha.

People keep mistaking me as male :o

Gender roles are pretty screwed up online.
Last night I watched this movie I hadn't seen for a long time "What Dreams May Come" and a quote struck me as needing to be added to this discussion.

"The old baggage, old roles of authority, who's the teacher, who's the father, gets in the way of who we really are to each other."

What do you people think of that? Are gender roles liable to skewer a person's perception of the actual person, or are things like gender part of a person's identity? I had this discussion with my cousin, and we went on to mention that he believes that no one has a set identity. For example, he could easily change his gender. So if gender and such things aren't set in stone, than what do gender roles really have to do with anything?
 
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