Men and women are different. And that's okay

Faye said:
I definitely see what you're saying Slant. It would be easier if society didn't tie a mythos to testosterone and estrogen that goes way beyond biology into the realm of socialization.

I would argue that people don't really want to have a conversation about it either. If all behavior is attributed to biology, then people don't feel responsible for their behavior. I see this a lot with "boys will be boys", "all men are pigs", and "women are crazy" mentalities. Sex hormones are not an excuse for bad behavior, but many people seem to think they are.
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Sorry to kind of bury this post with shenanigans. It's very good.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
Funnily enough I've been pulled towards the Catholic Church for a long time. I was talking to @Pin about that yesterday.

I'm agnostic, but it seems that everyone who becomes important to me is Catholic or has a Catholic background. It feels like some circle of completion that will occur sometime in the future.
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Pope Deleted member 16771 sounds acceptable
 
dragulagu said:
Men don't have feelings.
Women have feelings.

When 2 mix together, explosions.
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Men have feelings. We got the feels as much as anyone.

We're just taught to repress them and "Be a man", whilst also being told not to conform to society's views of masculinity.

I mean, when is the last time anyone said "He's such a great guy, he's so emotional! He really lets everyone know how he feels inside!"

Men are still expected to be the strong silent type and that isn't going to change because no one wants a bleeding heart for a friend or lover.

People want someone who is strong, confident and together.
 
ReasonEnduring said:
Men have feelings. We got the feels as much as anyone.

We're just taught to repress them and "Be a man", whilst also being told not to conform to society's views of masculinity.

I mean, when is the last time anyone said "He's such a great guy, he's so emotional! He really lets everyone know how he feels inside!"

Men are still expected to be the strong silent type and that isn't going to change because no one wants a bleeding heart for a friend or lover.

People want someone who is strong, confident and together.
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It's emotional management which is important and some "mystery" in not showing what's inside the little pandora's box.
"Strong and silent", keeping everything inside is just waiting for an explosive outset. I'm not saying that you need to wear your emotions
on a sleeve off course but what is wrong by opening up a bit on your emotions.

We're just taught to repress them and "Be a man", whilst also being told not to conform to society's views of masculinity. -> That is the issue. It's confusing.
 
ReasonEnduring said:
Men have feelings. We got the feels as much as anyone.

We're just taught to repress them and "Be a man", whilst also being told not to conform to society's views of masculinity.

I mean, when is the last time anyone said "He's such a great guy, he's so emotional! He really lets everyone know how he feels inside!"

Men are still expected to be the strong silent type and that isn't going to change because no one wants a bleeding heart for a friend or lover.

People want someone who is strong, confident and together.
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dragulagu said:
It's emotional management which is important and some "mystery" in not showing what's inside the little pandora's box.
"Strong and silent", keeping everything inside is just waiting for an explosive outset. I'm not saying that you need to wear your emotions
on a sleeve off course but what is wrong by opening up a bit on your emotions.

We're just taught to repress them and "Be a man", whilst also being told not to conform to society's views of masculinity. -> That is the issue. It's confusing.
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I'm a latecomer to this thread, so I've not caught up with all the thoughts that have been aired, but my experience is that men show their feelings very strongly - they signal emotionally to people around them all the time. It's just that we are far more inhibited from expressing our weaknesses in our emotions than women. The emotions that men do exhibit are usually the sort that colour their interactions with strong beliefs and values, or which signal their jockying for social ranking, or aim to put others a little off balance, or give others builds and positive feedback strokes, etc. Confident men, high up in their social pecking order, are often more open about showing their softer feelings than less secure men. What can be hard is for us to open up and seek help in the face of severe emotional distress, but that's only a part of it.

You don't have to look very far to find role models that are icons for male emotional signaling:


These are all amplifications, even caricatures, but I think they show a whole range of emotional interactions that men use all the time - for some reason we seem to discount these common behaviours when we say that men don't show emotion.
 
slant said:
I am not sure why this is such a controversial statement in this day and age. There are obvious biological differences and we are often so busy trying to deny them that it hurts people.

Not all men are the same.
Not all women are the same.

Both have variance.

But Im frequently having these conversations with my male friends who are terrified.

One of my friends recently went on a no sex no masturbating challenge from his girlfriend and he was saying how difficult it was for him to control himself when he was around her, that he was almost afraid he could rape her. The thing is; he wouldn't. He didn't mean that. What he is talking about is how strong the uncontrolled male sex drive can be. Testosterone is powerful shit and women don't know what that feels like. Although I don't have a hormonal imbalance persay, my levels of T and other associated male sex hormones were on the higher range which makes me less able to relate to women who have very high female sex hormones.

Everyone has different levels and they effect everyone differently, but it frustrates me that as a society we're not allowed to talk about scientific facts in a calm manner. Any validation of legitimate problems men may have is often compared to rape culture. On the opposite extreme, women who suffer severe moodswings and pain due to our sexual reproductive cycle are seen then as the "weaker sex" when, if those kind of crazy hormone shifts happened to a man, he would behave the same exact way.

I really want to talk about this, about how we're different and that it's okay. It doesn't mean we subscribe to societal culture based stereotypes. But we do need to understand basic human biology. It's the lack of nuance in these conversations, the lack of respect for diversity within the sexes itself, that leads to generalizations. Not all men have the same level of hormones therefore they don't all feel the same way. This applies to women too.

Discuss
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They certainly are different and that's gloriously OK :) - but, I think a lot of people are heavily influenced by social stereotyping, learnt behavior and learnt attitudes regarding the similarities and differences between the sexes, and it isn't clear to me what's hard-wired into us and what isn't. The biological ones are obvious but I'm a lot less sure about the psychological ones.

As an example, I think that men are ill served by the idea that they cannot control their physical sexuality. You can see the evidence for this when a powerful alternative motivation overrides the sexual ones - for instance in people who voluteer to spend extended times in single sex communities for a purpose they are enthusiastic about. The sexual urges don't disappear, but they can be managed and set aside for the sake of something else. My own experience working in the Antarctic for 20 months in the 1970s is an example - ours were all male bases at that time and everyone was heterosexual. I wouldn't for a minute recommend them going back to all male communities like that, but that's for the sake of giving women the same opportunity as men to carry out relevant research and to experience that part of the world. The dynamics of a small mixed community over-wintering in isolation is going to be completely different to an all male one of course.
 
John K said:
They certainly are different and that's gloriously OK :) - but, I think a lot of people are heavily influenced by social stereotyping, learnt behavior and learnt attitudes regarding the similarities and differences between the sexes, and it isn't clear to me what's hard-wired into us and what isn't. The biological ones are obvious but I'm a lot less sure about the psychological ones.

As an example, I think that men are ill served by the idea that they cannot control their physical sexuality. You can see the evidence for this when a powerful alternative motivation overrides the sexual ones - for instance in people who voluteer to spend extended times in single sex communities for a purpose they are enthusiastic about. The sexual urges don't disappear, but they can be managed and set aside for the sake of something else. My own experience working in the Antarctic for 20 months in the 1970s is an example - ours were all male bases at that time and everyone was heterosexual. I wouldn't for a minute recommend them going back to all male communities like that, but that's for the sake of giving women the same opportunity as men to carry out relevant research and to experience that part of the world. The dynamics of a small mixed community over-wintering in isolation is going to be completely different to an all male one of course.
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Interesting perspective. In Western culture, male virility is really hyped up and made to create status.

Whereas in eastern culture restraint is value, and I tend to view male strength as what you say: mastery over the physical sexual impulse
 
slant said:
Interesting perspective. In Western culture, male virility is really hyped up and made to create status.

Whereas in eastern culture restraint is value, and I tend to view male strength as what you say: mastery over the physical sexual impulse
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I very much agree. At their best, Eastern cultures have explored the achievement of psychological and existential freedom through self-mastery - for example in the martial arts, yoga and in other meditation techniques and disciplines. These aren't restricted only to men of course, but I think men can find a much more fulfiling symbol of masculinity to aim for with some of these. Not that everything is perfect there - they have their own issues, but different ones.
 
John K said:
I'm a latecomer to this thread, so I've not caught up with all the thoughts that have been aired, but my experience is that men show their feelings very strongly - they signal emotionally to people around them all the time. It's just that we are far more inhibited from expressing our weaknesses in our emotions than women. The emotions that men do exhibit are usually the sort that colour their interactions with strong beliefs and values, or which signal their jockying for social ranking, or aim to put others a little off balance, or give others builds and positive feedback strokes, etc. Confident men, high up in their social pecking order, are often more open about showing their softer feelings than less secure men. What can be hard is for us to open up and seek help in the face of severe emotional distress, but that's only a part of it.

You don't have to look very far to find role models that are icons for male emotional signaling:


These are all amplifications, even caricatures, but I think they show a whole range of emotional interactions that men use all the time - for some reason we seem to discount these common behaviours when we say that men don't show emotion.
Click to expand...
Just had to add Planes trains and automobiles to your list of movies. The dynamics between John Candy and Steve Martin are great! It shows the whole range of male interaction and emotions between the two. I always laugh watching that movie even though I know what's coming it just seems to make me laugh.
 
Pin said:
I wonder how American politics would look if men didn't have the right to vote, probably pretty Socialist/Communist. :laughing:
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Actually women tend to vote more Right-Wing than men if I remember a study correctly.

Whilst the left tends to champion Progressive ideals, some women tend to be put off by things they consider too extreme (like a lot of men who often disagree with those ideals).

Also the idea that all women are love and sharing is often cited by men who don't spend a lot of time in the company of women... Women can be just as aggressive and argumentative as men, and just as ideologically zealous.

Women tend to lean more Conservatives because of 2 subsections of the female population.

1) Traditional Women - Homemakers or partial homemakers. The value traditional family values and are often anti-abortion because... well... fetus destruction is a rather exteme thing they dislike, amongst other things. The enjoy more traditional lifestyles so anything too Progressive they feel threatens that.

2) Business Women - These are women who have been successful through business and have climbed the ladder despite any disadvantages they may have had. They use their success as proof we live in a work of equality and so Progressives are complain needlessly. They also favour economic Conservativism to protect their businesses so don't want to lose money in taxes.

This doesn't apply for ALL Traditional Women or ALL Business Women, but its enough of a factor to come up.

At least in the UK but I suspect this applies to most of the Anglo-Sphere as well, especially the US.

The idea that 100% of Conservative Governments are due to old white men is rather silly notion. Women and minorities do vote in significant numbers for Conservatives for various reasons. You don't get over 50% with old white men alone. Or just white men. Or just men.
 
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