Michael Brown Case
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cvp12gh5
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I understand everything you are saying. That doesn't mean I need to agree with it.
muir
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No...you 'know' what i have said but you don't understand it
If you understood it then 'agreement' is not an issue...you would just see what is for what it is
dogman6126
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No Muir, he got shot because he was an aggressor towards a police officer. Your assuming that the officer baited him, but it makes more sense that the kid was the aggressor. His history suggested that. He had drugs in his system. He had just stolen from a store. The cigarettes got the police looking for him, but his actions led to his death. He had so many chances. He didn't have to take drugs, he didn't havemakes to steal, he didn't have to walk down the middle of a street in the way of traffic, he didn't have to ignore the officer, he didn't have to fight the officer, he didn't have to run away, he didn't have to charge the officer. His history shows he was a criminal. Does the officer have a history of racism? I don't think so. Did the officer have a history of shooting innocent people? I don't think so. But that's the point isn't it. Brown wasn't innocent. Yes it's terrible that he died, but that is not the officers fault. It would have been very wrong to put this man behind bars for something he had no alternative in doing.
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cvp12gh5
What a lovely way to burn...
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Mm, no...I understand it. Who said there was an issue? I'm posting my view, you're posting yours. :ranger:
Really though. I get that you have a penchant for making everything into a conspiracy. And you have every right to do that. And as soon as you come up with one based in facts and real evidence, then I will consider it. I promise. I give credit where credit is due.
But until then...
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dogman6126
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Sorry Muir, that would only work if what you were saying was actually true
cvp12gh5
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For anyone who didn't catch this essay posted by one of our forum members a few days ago, I highly suggested taking the time out to read it. Here is a part about the psychological addiction involved in conspiracy theories:
http://realitysandwich.com/118054/synchronicity_myth_and_new_world_order/
"I have noticed that conspiracy theories have a very strong emotional appeal –
at least to some people.
Believers like to think that they are impartially choosing their belief because
they are more rational, more intelligent, or more open-minded than all those
benighted, deluded "sheeple" out there. Two people look at the same
set of facts and draw different conclusions. Is that choice a function of
intelligence and reason? Or could it be that we choose interpretations to meet
psychological and emotional needs?
One indication of the emotional appeal of conspiracy theories is their addictive nature.
When I visited the conspiracy state of being some time ago, I found myself constantly
checking certain websites, and feeling a kind of gratification at each discovery of some
new outrage. Other than that, it was a very dark and heavy state of being that I visited,
full of gloomy cynicism and a superficial feeling of superiority that didn't even fool myself.
I've heard from people for whom this became a full-fledged addiction. They
spend hours every day reading about the machinations of the New World Order,
and go through intense withdrawal whenever they miss their
"fix".
Believers spend lots of time getting "informed", but do they really act upon that information?
Some do, I suppose: they move to an armed compound in Idaho or hide gold coins
in their basement. But most go on with life as usual. How are they any
different from their neighbors? Their eyeballs linger over Alex Jones' website
rather than NPR's, but to what end? They may believe themselves to be among the
canny, righteous few, fighting against evil on behalf of the ignorant masses,
but mostly they do nothing. Like any addiction, addiction to conspiracy
websites or the closely related end-of-the-world websites disempowers people,
and actually helps maintain the status quo..."
http://realitysandwich.com/118054/synchronicity_myth_and_new_world_order/
"I have noticed that conspiracy theories have a very strong emotional appeal –
at least to some people.
Believers like to think that they are impartially choosing their belief because
they are more rational, more intelligent, or more open-minded than all those
benighted, deluded "sheeple" out there. Two people look at the same
set of facts and draw different conclusions. Is that choice a function of
intelligence and reason? Or could it be that we choose interpretations to meet
psychological and emotional needs?
One indication of the emotional appeal of conspiracy theories is their addictive nature.
When I visited the conspiracy state of being some time ago, I found myself constantly
checking certain websites, and feeling a kind of gratification at each discovery of some
new outrage. Other than that, it was a very dark and heavy state of being that I visited,
full of gloomy cynicism and a superficial feeling of superiority that didn't even fool myself.
I've heard from people for whom this became a full-fledged addiction. They
spend hours every day reading about the machinations of the New World Order,
and go through intense withdrawal whenever they miss their
"fix".
Believers spend lots of time getting "informed", but do they really act upon that information?
Some do, I suppose: they move to an armed compound in Idaho or hide gold coins
in their basement. But most go on with life as usual. How are they any
different from their neighbors? Their eyeballs linger over Alex Jones' website
rather than NPR's, but to what end? They may believe themselves to be among the
canny, righteous few, fighting against evil on behalf of the ignorant masses,
but mostly they do nothing. Like any addiction, addiction to conspiracy
websites or the closely related end-of-the-world websites disempowers people,
and actually helps maintain the status quo..."
dogman6126
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your missing the point....
yeah but it's not true, soooooo....
Your speculation isn't supported by thehistory of the individuals. Mine is. Therefore "my" speculation which is the same as the grand jury, is far more likely than your example of a conspiracy working to get done random black guy killed.
You don't actually think that. This is you trying to be persuasive not realistic.
That was the kid not the officer. The kid had so many chances
Actually that thought hasn't even crossed my mind. I was hinting at how I respect the officers, and I follow the law. If he had done either of those then this wouldn't have happened.
Your amazed because you misunderstand how police really are. The police are not beating people with battons every time there's an arrest or traffic stop. It's actually extremely rare.
You sure love spamming videos and articles. 316 million people in America. How many in the UK? Do you look at videos of arrests where there was no abuse? It's called negativity bias Muir. The negative feels more prominent than the kind. That's because kind is normal. More common.
Just because the police are"militarizing" or upgrading their tech and weapons does not mean officer Wilson baited and brutalized Brown and then killed him when he supposedly tried to surrender.
muir
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No if you understood it then you would know its real
You will know its real at some point in the future...it's just a matter of time
muir
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What am i saying?
muir
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And the final and most important pont:
the officer didn't need to shoot him
I guess it all comes down to whether or not you believe the state has a right to kill people
muir
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Oh yes...i read that essay
Struck me as someone saying: ''yes the conspiracy theories are in fact true, but i've decided that my life is easier if i buried my head in the sand so now i'm just going to ignore it's all happening and instead of discussing the theory i'm going to attack and criticise people who still have the balls to look reality in the face''
Very likely psyops material designed to provide a let out clause to moral cowards
Ex CIA officer saying that online bloggers sharing information is what will change the world
[video=youtube;ofaL2fAFNCM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofaL2fAFNCM[/video]
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muir
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Ok so the freemasonic police all swear allegiance to the 'crown' city of london corporation which in turn protects the bankers behind all the recent scandals such as LIBOR rate rigging and also the paedophile scandals that are exploding onto the mainstream media now
The police have been found to be covering up the child abuse and murders and also the royal family who are the heads of freemasonry and the figureheads of the 'crown' entity knighted britaisn most prolific child murderer and rapist Jimmy Saville (a disk jockey); they also gave him an OBE and the pope (head of the worlds biggest child abuse ring, the vatican) also gave saville a papal knighthood; this was all while the intelligence services and the police knew about savilles behaviours
So we have thre freemasonic police protecting the freemasonic royals and bankers as they loot the economy and murder and rape children
If anyone is a fan of the 'godfather' films then you'll remember the bit in the second film where 'gods banker' Roberto Calvi is found hanging under blackfriars bridge in London. This was a freemasonic message as 'blackfriar' is a freemasonic term
That hollywood depiction was of a real event involving the vatican bank, the mafia, the freemasons and the bankers
This is widely known as the P2 Lodge scandal
Here's a mainstream newspaper story about it:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2003/dec/07/italy.theobserver
[h=1]Who killed Calvi?[/h] Reopening the inquiry into the 'suicide' of 'God's banker' has exposed links with the mafia, masons and Vatican fraud, writes Nick Mathiason
Roberto Calvi, known as God's banker because of his close ties to the Vatican, was found hanging from Blackfriars Bridge, central London, with a length of orange rope woven into a lover's knot around his neck. He was weighed down by bricks and found with £15,000 in cash in his pockets.
Calvi's death, in June 1982, was the moment the Italian underworld went overground in London. 'If you're going to take this case on it'll be like dancing in the mouth of wolves,' a secret service agent told Katz in Rome.
Katz was bitten. 'It was a fascinating case,' he said in London last week. 'It involved the mafia, the Vatican, P2 [a powerful masonic group]. It had 90 per cent of my time for two years so I was really stuck into it.' The painstaking work, carried out by the New York investigator and 30 others in the early 1990s, is now leading tantalisingly closer to the arrest of key figures in Britain and the recovery of tens of millions of pounds in what was one of the 20th century's most intriguing murders and financial scandals. The affair saw Italy's biggest private bank collapse with debts of $1.4 billion in 1982.
The City of London police working on the case today describe a mosaic of vicious mafia dons, and assets traced all over the world.
But it seems there are plenty of people who still do not want the secrets which supposedly died with Calvi 21 years ago to come to light. The Italian detective leading the investigation, Luca Tescaroli, recently received a hand-delivered letter containing black powder and two 12-volt batteries with a note saying: 'This is an ultimatum. Stop.'
But it is too late now. Evidence has come to light which is leading the investigation to four UK suspects who helped bring about Calvi's downfall. Three months after Calvi's death, a small-time drug dealer, Sergio Vaccari, was stabbed in the face, neck and chest more than 15 times. At the time the City of London police saw no link with Calvi. But Vaccari had possession of masonic papers. And Katz tracked down Vaccari's former landlord, who, he learned, had demanded that his tenant left his flat. Vaccari agreed on condition that the landlord found him another home. The landlord presented two options, one of which Vaccari picked. A while later Vaccari wanted details from the landlord of the other place; that flat was in Chelsea Cloisters, the place Calvi stayed in just before he died.
'From there we began to make other linkages between Vaccari and the Calvi entourage,' said Katz.
The new City of London investigation, led by Detective Superintendent Trevor Smith, drew on a detailed reconstruction of the last hours of Calvi's life. The reconstruction, devised by Katz and a forensic expert, Angela Gallop, established conclusively that Calvi was murdered. The scaffolding that Calvi was hung from, was assembled again, and a man of Calvis's height and weight climbed along it. Pressure from such weight would have left rust on Calvi's shoes, but forensic research found no rust stuck to his footwear.
It was decided that Calvi could not have committed suicide, as was first suggested by the City of London police after an investigation that lasted no more than a week. It has long been suggested that it was a masonic influence that led the City police to issue this conclusion, a claim denied by the police.
For Carlo it was not just a case of proving that his father was murdered. A suicide verdict would have meant that the son could not have got access to the $10m life insurance payout. A second inquest produced an open verdict, which still did not satisfy the insurers. When subsequent forensic work did satisfy them that Calvi had not died by his own hand, his bank's creditors - owed $1.4bn - were waiting. Touche Ross, the liquidator, took a significant slice.
Calvi was a haunted man as he entered his final days. As chairman of Banco Ambrosiano, he was in charge of an organisation that laundered money made largely from the heroin trade for the mafia. He knew the dark financial secrets of the Vatican. Letters of comfort to offshore companies which he created were signed by Archbishop Marcinkus, a Chicago-born prelate and key Vatican insider who has never faced an interview or charges.
But more ominously Calvi had intimate knowledge of regular payments made by large Italian companies to political parties. He should have known: the payments went through his bank.
Calvi was on the point of going to prison for violating exchange controls. It was Michele Sindona, once Calvi's mentor, who ratted on him. Calvi had one chance to avert humiliation. Tell the world what he knew. It was this which led to his death, Katz believes.
'There was a point at which he threatened that if the Vatican and other people who he had been working with did not get him off the hook for the four years in jail for currency exchange violations, he was going to talk,' Katz argues. 'It would have landed the heads of all the major corporations in jail and it would have ended up probably with the indictment of political leaders.'
No mafia killing in London could happen unless it were ordered by Francesco di Carlo. He was one of the first of the Cosa Nostra to realise the need to 'clean' criminal profits through the financial system. Now serving 25 years for heroin trafficking, in 1967 he had met Queen Elizabeth in Italy.
For many years it was assumed that the Calvi mystery would fade into the mists of time. But the City of London police have now established a link between di Carlo and Sergio Vaccari. And the mists are clearing.
Banking scandal
It was one of the biggest and most intriguing financial scandals of the last century.
Weeks after Roberto Calvi's murder in June 1982, the Italian bank he chaired, Banco Ambrosiano, went under with a then staggering $1.4 billion debt.
Mafia, Freemasons and the Vatican are implicated in a tale of drug trafficking, money laundering and tortuous financing spanning the world.
Many believe the death of Pope John Paul I in 1978, just 33 days after his election, happened because he wanted to break the murky links between what was then Italy's largest private bank and the Vatican.
The scandal touched financial institutions around the world and the Italian political elite.
Calvi's bank built its empire in close association with the Vatican bank, the Institute for Religious Works. This was headed by Archbishop Paul Marcinkus from Chicago. While the Vatican never accepted culpability in the collapse of Ambrosiano, it stumped up $250m to creditors. Some believe Marcinkus may yet face trial now a court case in Italy is progressing.
One of the most influential figures in the Calvi story was Licio Gelli, now 84. He was Grand Master of the P2 masonic lodge of which Silvio Berlusconi was once a member. Gelli was sentenced to 12 years for fraud in connection with the collapse of Calvi's bank and is under house arrest.
Calvi's mentor Michele Sindona was friends with former US President Richard Nixon. Sindona died in prison in 1986 poisoned by coffee laced with cyanide.
The police have been found to be covering up the child abuse and murders and also the royal family who are the heads of freemasonry and the figureheads of the 'crown' entity knighted britaisn most prolific child murderer and rapist Jimmy Saville (a disk jockey); they also gave him an OBE and the pope (head of the worlds biggest child abuse ring, the vatican) also gave saville a papal knighthood; this was all while the intelligence services and the police knew about savilles behaviours
So we have thre freemasonic police protecting the freemasonic royals and bankers as they loot the economy and murder and rape children
If anyone is a fan of the 'godfather' films then you'll remember the bit in the second film where 'gods banker' Roberto Calvi is found hanging under blackfriars bridge in London. This was a freemasonic message as 'blackfriar' is a freemasonic term
That hollywood depiction was of a real event involving the vatican bank, the mafia, the freemasons and the bankers
This is widely known as the P2 Lodge scandal
Here's a mainstream newspaper story about it:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2003/dec/07/italy.theobserver
[h=1]Who killed Calvi?[/h] Reopening the inquiry into the 'suicide' of 'God's banker' has exposed links with the mafia, masons and Vatican fraud, writes Nick Mathiason
Email- Nick Mathiason
- The Observer, Sunday 7 December 2003
Roberto Calvi, known as God's banker because of his close ties to the Vatican, was found hanging from Blackfriars Bridge, central London, with a length of orange rope woven into a lover's knot around his neck. He was weighed down by bricks and found with £15,000 in cash in his pockets.
Calvi's death, in June 1982, was the moment the Italian underworld went overground in London. 'If you're going to take this case on it'll be like dancing in the mouth of wolves,' a secret service agent told Katz in Rome.
Katz was bitten. 'It was a fascinating case,' he said in London last week. 'It involved the mafia, the Vatican, P2 [a powerful masonic group]. It had 90 per cent of my time for two years so I was really stuck into it.' The painstaking work, carried out by the New York investigator and 30 others in the early 1990s, is now leading tantalisingly closer to the arrest of key figures in Britain and the recovery of tens of millions of pounds in what was one of the 20th century's most intriguing murders and financial scandals. The affair saw Italy's biggest private bank collapse with debts of $1.4 billion in 1982.
The City of London police working on the case today describe a mosaic of vicious mafia dons, and assets traced all over the world.
But it seems there are plenty of people who still do not want the secrets which supposedly died with Calvi 21 years ago to come to light. The Italian detective leading the investigation, Luca Tescaroli, recently received a hand-delivered letter containing black powder and two 12-volt batteries with a note saying: 'This is an ultimatum. Stop.'
But it is too late now. Evidence has come to light which is leading the investigation to four UK suspects who helped bring about Calvi's downfall. Three months after Calvi's death, a small-time drug dealer, Sergio Vaccari, was stabbed in the face, neck and chest more than 15 times. At the time the City of London police saw no link with Calvi. But Vaccari had possession of masonic papers. And Katz tracked down Vaccari's former landlord, who, he learned, had demanded that his tenant left his flat. Vaccari agreed on condition that the landlord found him another home. The landlord presented two options, one of which Vaccari picked. A while later Vaccari wanted details from the landlord of the other place; that flat was in Chelsea Cloisters, the place Calvi stayed in just before he died.
'From there we began to make other linkages between Vaccari and the Calvi entourage,' said Katz.
The new City of London investigation, led by Detective Superintendent Trevor Smith, drew on a detailed reconstruction of the last hours of Calvi's life. The reconstruction, devised by Katz and a forensic expert, Angela Gallop, established conclusively that Calvi was murdered. The scaffolding that Calvi was hung from, was assembled again, and a man of Calvis's height and weight climbed along it. Pressure from such weight would have left rust on Calvi's shoes, but forensic research found no rust stuck to his footwear.
It was decided that Calvi could not have committed suicide, as was first suggested by the City of London police after an investigation that lasted no more than a week. It has long been suggested that it was a masonic influence that led the City police to issue this conclusion, a claim denied by the police.
For Carlo it was not just a case of proving that his father was murdered. A suicide verdict would have meant that the son could not have got access to the $10m life insurance payout. A second inquest produced an open verdict, which still did not satisfy the insurers. When subsequent forensic work did satisfy them that Calvi had not died by his own hand, his bank's creditors - owed $1.4bn - were waiting. Touche Ross, the liquidator, took a significant slice.
Calvi was a haunted man as he entered his final days. As chairman of Banco Ambrosiano, he was in charge of an organisation that laundered money made largely from the heroin trade for the mafia. He knew the dark financial secrets of the Vatican. Letters of comfort to offshore companies which he created were signed by Archbishop Marcinkus, a Chicago-born prelate and key Vatican insider who has never faced an interview or charges.
But more ominously Calvi had intimate knowledge of regular payments made by large Italian companies to political parties. He should have known: the payments went through his bank.
Calvi was on the point of going to prison for violating exchange controls. It was Michele Sindona, once Calvi's mentor, who ratted on him. Calvi had one chance to avert humiliation. Tell the world what he knew. It was this which led to his death, Katz believes.
'There was a point at which he threatened that if the Vatican and other people who he had been working with did not get him off the hook for the four years in jail for currency exchange violations, he was going to talk,' Katz argues. 'It would have landed the heads of all the major corporations in jail and it would have ended up probably with the indictment of political leaders.'
No mafia killing in London could happen unless it were ordered by Francesco di Carlo. He was one of the first of the Cosa Nostra to realise the need to 'clean' criminal profits through the financial system. Now serving 25 years for heroin trafficking, in 1967 he had met Queen Elizabeth in Italy.
For many years it was assumed that the Calvi mystery would fade into the mists of time. But the City of London police have now established a link between di Carlo and Sergio Vaccari. And the mists are clearing.
Banking scandal
It was one of the biggest and most intriguing financial scandals of the last century.
Weeks after Roberto Calvi's murder in June 1982, the Italian bank he chaired, Banco Ambrosiano, went under with a then staggering $1.4 billion debt.
Mafia, Freemasons and the Vatican are implicated in a tale of drug trafficking, money laundering and tortuous financing spanning the world.
Many believe the death of Pope John Paul I in 1978, just 33 days after his election, happened because he wanted to break the murky links between what was then Italy's largest private bank and the Vatican.
The scandal touched financial institutions around the world and the Italian political elite.
Calvi's bank built its empire in close association with the Vatican bank, the Institute for Religious Works. This was headed by Archbishop Paul Marcinkus from Chicago. While the Vatican never accepted culpability in the collapse of Ambrosiano, it stumped up $250m to creditors. Some believe Marcinkus may yet face trial now a court case in Italy is progressing.
One of the most influential figures in the Calvi story was Licio Gelli, now 84. He was Grand Master of the P2 masonic lodge of which Silvio Berlusconi was once a member. Gelli was sentenced to 12 years for fraud in connection with the collapse of Calvi's bank and is under house arrest.
Calvi's mentor Michele Sindona was friends with former US President Richard Nixon. Sindona died in prison in 1986 poisoned by coffee laced with cyanide.
dogman6126
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lol, well then. I guess that's easy for you to say. Thinking that you know more about arresting people, shooting a gun, and how to act in high intensity situations than a trained police officer. Forgive me, I forgot about your extensive training in law enforcement and ethical philosophy.
Whether or not the state has a right to kill people is a completely separate issue Muir, and you know it. The question here is if an officer has a right to defend himself if a civilian is threatening him, and the extent to which an officer should defend himself.
dogman6126
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That's not even close to what that article is saying, and if you can't see that then I truly feel sorry for you Muir. Your search for clarity has you trapped in darkness.
muir
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No you are missing the point
The point is your country is being taken over by corporate forces who are using your police force as an enforcer against the public
You brought it up
I haven't said there was a conspiracy to get a random black guy killed
I've said the police are being militarised which is leading to greater levels of antagonism and confrontation with the public leading to increased tensions and violent incidents fatal or otherwise
If there had been no call put out about the cigarellos then there would have been no shooting...so he was killed over a pack of cigarellos
That's speculation...you don't know how the cop handled it
Well the law is used to protect child murdering peadophiles and the polcie are used to do that as well so its difficult to 'respect' either given that context
No it's not rare and it will get worse and worse the more aggressive the police get (they are being pressured from above to pressure the public and they are recruiting people who are less able to empathise)
No
There are so many different aspects to what you are saying there that you are not considering
For example there are debates over whether carrying weed should be a crime
There are debates over whether or not police should be doing random stops of vehicles
There are debates over whether the police should be arresting the banksters instead of harrassing the public
The tensions between the public and the police are going to grow because the police are militarising and are being given quotas to encourage then to hastle the public
[video=youtube;h6RbHeTLofA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6RbHeTLofA[/video]
If it hadn't been the Brown incident it would have been another one...but this situation has been in the pipeline for a while
If you look at old threads you'll see me posting warnings about this going back years
This is going to be a grwoing issue and i don't care if you disagree with that because i know that events will prove i'm right, so all i have to do is wait and then as events evolve i'll remind you of this discussion in a year or two
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cvp12gh5
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No, I do understand. Some of what you say holds bits and pieces of truth. But what you do is take these pieces, hype them up and then spin them into evidence supporting a conspiracy.
muir
Banned
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Oh yes it is
It is basically trying to pull people away from discussing the truth online
It comes down to whether you think you are an idiot who shouldn't know anythingand who should leave everything upto the politicians and that you shouldn't talk about things or the truth behind the offical narratives because you are just little old you with no power or if you think that we should all be informed, all know the truth behind the offical line and should all then discuss things, informourselves and others and empower ourselves to begin developing a political voice on the road to a more democratic country
I believe the latter
I think we should be informed so that we can then demand a greater say in the decision making process
Maybe you haven't noticed but there is a massive shift in power occuring at the moment with the public growing more restless, better informed and more engaged by the day
Heck even the conspirators at the top recognise its happening...bzrezinski on the mass awakening of poltiical consciousness:
[video=youtube;bHknL5z8f6k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHknL5z8f6k[/video]
You know what i find interesting about you people who support the government line is how you are fine with other government line supporters filling up the internet with their opinions but when anyone tries to post informtion that contradicts the offical state narrative they are demonised and called 'conspiracy theorists', 'crazy' or said to be defective in some way!
What you fail to realise is that articles like that one above that takes aim at so called 'conspiracy theorists' are nothing more than an attempt to try and shame them into silence. But since when did speaking the truth become a shameful thing? I'm not ashamed and i'll keep speaking it so tough luck
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muir
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You are doing a classic thing that the naysayers do which is that you say vague things about what i'm doing but you never pin down what you think is wrong!
You tell me what you think is wrong and i'll show you how its right