Mormons.

[Flavus Aquila]

@Flavus Aquila , acutally, I accept the majority of the Mormon faith. There are bits that I am confused about. But the few things I am puzzled by aren't going to destroy the joy and the fullness all the other parts bring me. I think that faith in Joseph Smith is important, but it's something that you'd have to work on. I still don't have complete confidence in my faith, but I am working towards it. There will come a point in this discussion where we are just going to have to agree to disagree because I can't make you feel in your heart what I feel in mine. True?

A this point in time, I think we actually both agree -in our hearts- about Joseph Smith and Mormonism: We both accept that some things he said are true; we are both unsure about some things he said and that Mormons believe; we both do not have complete trust in John Smith.

Where we differ is that you think it is important to overcome your lack of certainty about your hang-ups with Mormonism. I on the other hand, do not consider it honest (in myself) to have to accept with faith the incongruous for the sake of what is congruous. To accept such a religion would make a large part of one's spirituality about accepting what the heart does not love - kind of like a spouse forcing him/herself to accept infidelity in their other, for the sake of love.

To me it is less conflicting to pursue a different religion, which has no intrinsic obstacles "to overcome" - basically the religion and doctrines that Joseph Smith took, sorted through and selectively re-packaged as his own personal religion. Ie. Christianity, in its original form, without the additions/editions/deletions of modern political characters like Luther, Calvin, and Joseph Smith.

 

[isabellajay]

Definitely. I see where you're coming from. In fact, I really like what you said. I haven't done too much religious exploration, but I'm more than willing to give it a go. I can't say I'll change my mind though on my lack of certainty of mind. Ha Any particular religion you think I should look into?
And p.s. you might want to change your Johns to Josephs before Pocahontas shows up.

 

[sprinkles]

Well none of this is really an excuse to hate anybody.

Recognizing some problems, or not getting it, is totally different. Hate is unnecessary. I see no reason to put that huge pile of blinding emotion behind it, because if you're reasonable you can still do as you see fit without it.

Honestly people have to work pretty hard to get me to hate them. They have to be really really terrible and vile. I'll be apathetic and direct my energies elsewhere before I can hate somebody most of the time.

 

[isabellajay]

I have ne'er met a finer group of people online. Thanks for posting.

 

[this is only temporary]

I don't hate Mormons, I never even met one before until all these people from Utah started talking like Mormons are trying to take over the world or something, which was very confusing to me, because I was all "WHAT Mormons?" There aren't any where I live. Are you the people on bikes wearing ties I sometimes see? Or are those Seventh Day Adventists or Amish? (I honestly have no idea.) If those bike people are Mormon, then in that case, there are two where I live, but that's all, and frankly, they are not the least bit threatening. So, Hi, nice to meet you!

 

[Mary Shelley]

I don't hate Mormons, I never even met one before until all these people from Utah started talking like Mormons are trying to take over the world or something, which was very confusing to me, because I was all "WHAT Mormons?" There aren't any where I live. Are you the people on bikes wearing ties I sometimes see? Or are those Seventh Day Adventists or Amish? (I honestly have no idea.) If those bike people are Mormon, then in that case, there are two where I live, but that's all, and frankly, they are not the least bit threatening. So, Hi, nice to meet you!

Yes, the cute nicely dressed clean cut polite guys on bicycles are the Mormons. Either that or the Disney store is recruiting door-to-door now.

 

[isabellajay]

[MENTION=4680]this is only temporary[/MENTION], it's lovely to meet you. And [MENTION=9350]sentientsixpence[/MENTION] I know about 6 missionaries in Texas right now. Hahah not that you just so happen to know one of them in your second largest state.

 

[Mary Shelley]

[MENTION=4680]this is only temporary[/MENTION], it's lovely to meet you. And [MENTION=9350]sentientsixpence[/MENTION] I know about 6 missionaries in Texas right now. Hahah not that you just so happen to know one of them in your second largest state.

I used to live in a college town in Texas and we would always invite them in and talk to them for a bit. Even though we weren't interested in pursuing the church, they still seemed to appreciate it. I live in the suburbs in Dallas now and have not had them knocking yet. I do see them out and about occasionally, though.

 

[jimtaylor]

I live in Utah and I have no issue with the faith itself just as I have no issue with most faiths. It is the social construct of the faith that is disturbing. For anyone who is not blind, you can tell how messed up a lot of people in Utah are because of the social pressure to be Mormon. It becomes less and less about actually believing in it and more about following it to fit in, to not be socially ostracized by the majority.

I can't tell you how many friends houses I have gone into and found that they are hiding liquor. These are full grown adults who are afraid what people will think of them for not following the Word of Wisdom. My father served a mission and just like pretty much every person in Utah, I am related to Joseph Smith. So my family going back to when my great great great.... grandfather (Joseph Smiths brother) was murdered along with Joseph and others, have been Mormon. It's how I was raised and it is social suicide to leave the faith but I'm glad I did.

The faith itself is fine, I just have an issue with the people who turn that faith into a sense of superiority. I mean look at some of the most recent statistics that have come out about Utah. One of the lowest marriage ages for both genders, one of the highest divorce rates, prescription drug abuse, pornography abuse, etc... These are not results of the actual faith but the social pressure to confirm created by the people who abuse the faith.

The sad thing is that this is nothing new. It happens all the time because faith is a very powerful social mechanism. When it is not abused it can be a wonderful thing that makes life more bearable and perhaps removes some of the fears and uncertainties of death but when it is abused, it can result in some of the worst atrocities.

 

[isabellajay]

I live in Utah and I have no issue with the faith itself just as I have no issue with most faiths. It is the social construct of the faith that is disturbing. For anyone who is not blind, you can tell how messed up a lot of people in Utah are because of the social pressure to be Mormon. It becomes less and less about actually believing in it and more about following it to fit in, to not be socially ostracized by the majority.

That's sad and very true. People treat me weird because none of my family members are Mormons. And I dislike the "I'm Mormon cause my family is Mormon" thing in situations where people are only going to church on Sunday yet ceasing to try and live the gospel every other day of the week. But some people go who are trying to develop their faith still, and they still have to rely on the testimonies of others for a while.

 

[Tin Man]

I don't really know anything about Mormonism, apart from that episode of South Park. One thing I'm curious about, do you believe that native Americans are descended from Israelites? Does the Mormon church still believe that dark skinned people are "cursed"?

 

[Flavus Aquila]

I live in Utah and I have no issue with the faith itself just as I have no issue with most faiths. It is the social construct of the faith that is disturbing. For anyone who is not blind, you can tell how messed up a lot of people in Utah are because of the social pressure to be Mormon. It becomes less and less about actually believing in it and more about following it to fit in, to not be socially ostracized by the majority.

I can't tell you how many friends houses I have gone into and found that they are hiding liquor. These are full grown adults who are afraid what people will think of them for not following the Word of Wisdom. My father served a mission and just like pretty much every person in Utah, I am related to Joseph Smith. So my family going back to when my great great great.... grandfather (Joseph Smiths brother) was murdered along with Joseph and others, have been Mormon. It's how I was raised and it is social suicide to leave the faith but I'm glad I did.

The faith itself is fine, I just have an issue with the people who turn that faith into a sense of superiority. I mean look at some of the most recent statistics that have come out about Utah. One of the lowest marriage ages for both genders, one of the highest divorce rates, prescription drug abuse, pornography abuse, etc... These are not results of the actual faith but the social pressure to confirm created by the people who abuse the faith.

The sad thing is that this is nothing new. It happens all the time because faith is a very powerful social mechanism. When it is not abused it can be a wonderful thing that makes life more bearable and perhaps removes some of the fears and uncertainties of death but when it is abused, it can result in some of the worst atrocities.

Being snooty about inbreeding, polygamy and the like isn't especially endearing.
Overindulgence by men in some areas and high-handed abstemiousness in others, well.... that doesn't help either.

 

[SealHammer]

I don't really know anything about Mormonism, apart from that episode of South Park. One thing I'm curious about, do you believe that native Americans are descended from Israelites? Does the Mormon church still believe that dark skinned people are "cursed"?

No, they modified that belief in the late 70s because apparently their god told them to.

Isn't it funny how god's opinion always tends to change in the wake of significant social movements?

 

[Barnabas]

kind of like a spouse forcing him/herself to accept infidelity in their other, for the sake of love.

*cough* Hosea*cough,cough*

But on topic, I don't have anything against Mormons personally(mildly disappointed that I've not had any show up on my door.) I can understand that what was, is not, is(Any group can have accusations leveled at their history). It's only on a theological level that I have a disagreement, but hey I have theological disagreements with Baptists and Calvinists as well and find it best to with-hold any serious dispute until I've had time to measure the man/woman behind it.

 

[YourFavoriteNightmare]

Personally, I have nothing against Mormons. It's just another religion in this world with another explanation of what brought us here, why we're here, what happens to us after death and what will the Apocalypse is (or even if there's one).

 

[Lerxst]

I've lived in Utah for the past 5 years. Not just Utah, but one of THE MOST CONSERVATIVE parts of Utah in the southern end of the state. From what I see and hear, the SLC, "Big City" Mormons are just average people you'd never suspect of even being LDS - I've worked with several of them and know others personally. Go out into the "boonies" though and you'll still see the same historic traits that led most of the country to hate Mormons, still being practiced and/or condoned. Not just Polygamy, mind you, but complete and total... let's call it blissful ignorance. They live, grown up in and work in a small town their entire lives and have no desire to learn anything their church won't teach them.

Which brings us to the church...

I can probably say the same of most organized religions, but there are some of the more "radical" ones that seem to bend the rules further than the rest. The part of the LDS church that annoys me (and I'm sure many others) the most is outlined pretty well in Bill Maher's "Religulous" documentary. The presence of "outsiders" is unwelcome in any way, shape or form. The LDS church is run more like a cult than most other churches in the world. In many religions, you're free to talk openly and ask the leaders questions, you're invited to ceremonies, you can pose difficult questions, you can show some skepticism and the leaders will still welcome your presence. The LDS church is more likely to slam the door in your face and never let you see the inside of their temple if they even suspect you're a non-believer. Everything is secretive and protected by the members... ahem... God forbid we ask about your underwear!!

The church sends missionaries out whose main purpose is to recruit bodies first, help people second. And these kids are "brainwashed" into thinking this missionary work is a privilege and it gives them a high standing in their community and among the rest of their church. They do this at the price of alienating those who are not like them, not Mormon. In the late-teenage years their is a sharp divide between those going on their mission and those who do not. They may have attended school for over a decade together, but once they get that right of passage and go away for a while, they willfully sacrifice their friends and other relationships that fall outside of the scope of their religious convictions.

I also have a friend who teaches high school in this same area. The things she is simply not allowed to say, or met with blank faces when she brings up are mind-boggling! It's as though the Mormon church missed the Age of Enlightenment and scrapped huge parts of our Constitution in order to create Deseret.... errr... I mean Utah. Take a look at the beer. Seriously. There's such a small separation of church and state in Utah that this state has its own laws for alcohol, based on Mormon values. (It almost makes me want to go out and get a DWI, so I can sue the state for discrimination when I get arrested.)

Also I also consider many of them hypocrites...

I've seen 2 types of Mormons - those who believe and those who do not. The latter are the ones who are successful businessmen, professionals and leaders. They are well educated and usually fairly worldly in their knowledge. These are the types of people I was mentioning can blend in with a crowd and seem perfectly normal. How can well educated people who have lived abroad, believe angles came directly to Joe Smith and gave him golden tablets? How can they rationalize polygamy in their past? How can they believe their underwear is fire-proof?? They don't. They're in it to conform, be a part of the group and gain the perks and benefits of doing so.

The former of that group actually do believe in the scriptures. They read the Bible in one hand and the Book of Mormon in the other. They bless their clothing at the temple each week. They refer to everyone as "brother so and so" or "sister so and so". They're also often the under-educated, under-employed, poorer members of the community. They're essentially the peons of the Mormon church who are commanded to jump and then brainwashed from birth to ask "How high?".

My views on Mormons are no different than my views on any other religion or group that practices exclusion and ignorance, brainwashes their youth and takes advantage of the less fortunate to fulfill their own agenda.

 

[isabellajay]

[MENTION=2890]Lerxst[/MENTION] I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about. Are we even talking about the same religion here? You sound as though you’ve formed an opinion about an entire religion based on observing one group of Mormons alone. Your stereotyping is not only hurtful, but extremely ignorant and incorrect. I’m sorry, but how can you say that there are only two types of Mormons – stupid, uneducated believers and brilliant, worldly conformists? Um no. The leaders of the LDS church should clue you in that you should reconsider jumping to such conclusions. Just to name some apostles: Dallin H. Oaks, former Supreme Court justice, Russell M. Nelson, heart surgeon, and Jeffrey R. Holland, who has a masters and doctorate degree from Yale. These are all men who believe in the message and gospel of the LDS church, but because they believe they are idiots? Before making claims based solely on your observations, consider reading up a little on the church from reliable sources.

Your generalizations about missionaries are shallow and inaccurate. While some young men feel the social pressure to serve, many are serving because of a firm conviction and great personal desire. With 80,000 young men and young women serving and sharing our beliefs across the world, you cannot say that they are uncaring robots trying to simply add numbers.

And as far as conservatives, excessively conservative people in general tend to be bothersome. I know plenty of conservative Mormon people and while they can behave with ignorance sometimes (and it annoys me), it doesn’t mean they aren’t people who deserve respect and love.

You could’ve just described life in any small town with a predominant conservative religion. Sorry that your experience has been negative but I don’t think it’s indicative of the intelligence and faith of the average Latter-day Saint.

 

[Sriracha]

I have nothing against Mormons. I grew up around them. However; when we move back to AZ we will choose to live at least a 3 mile radius away from the temple.

This might explain the murders [MENTION=2710]jimtaylor[/MENTION] mentioned:

20 March 1884 (old newspaper article)
When the “Book of Mormon” was published in 1830 there was published with it a certificate of three men, afterward known as the “three witnesses,” who declared that they saw an angel of God come down with the golden book which Joseph Smith interpreted. Subsequently all three of these men renounced Mormonism and declared their testimony false. David F. Whitmer, one of the three, is now living, in his eightieth year, in Missouri. He was a brother-in-law of Oliver Cowdry, who wrote the copy of the book for Smith.

This is interesting in correlation to the above: http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

 

[Lerxst]

@Lerxst I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about. Are we even talking about the same religion here? You sound as though you’ve formed an opinion about an entire religion based on observing one group of Mormons alone. Your stereotyping is not only hurtful, but extremely ignorant and incorrect. I’m sorry, but how can you say that there are only two types of Mormons – stupid, uneducated believers and brilliant, worldly conformists? Um no. The leaders of the LDS church should clue you in that you should reconsider jumping to such conclusions. Just to name some apostles: Dallin H. Oaks, former Supreme Court justice, Russell M. Nelson, heart surgeon, and Jeffrey R. Holland, who has a masters and doctorate degree from Yale. These are all men who believe in the message and gospel of the LDS church, but because they believe they are idiots? Before making claims based solely on your observations, consider reading up a little on the church from reliable sources.

Your generalizations about missionaries are shallow and inaccurate. While some young men feel the social pressure to serve, many are serving because of a firm conviction and great personal desire. With 80,000 young men and young women serving and sharing our beliefs across the world, you cannot say that they are uncaring robots trying to simply add numbers.

And as far as conservatives, excessively conservative people in general tend to be bothersome. I know plenty of conservative Mormon people and while they can behave with ignorance sometimes (and it annoys me), it doesn’t mean they aren’t people who deserve respect and love.

You could’ve just described life in any small town with a predominant conservative religion. Sorry that your experience has been negative but I don’t think it’s indicative of the intelligence and faith of the average Latter-day Saint.

Ah, the crux of the matter. Where does an outsider "read up" on the Mormon church from? The temples close their doors, the followers go silent if you suggest an alternate to their views, even mormon.com kicks you out/denies you access if you're not a Mormon. It's like a secret club... so what's the password?

Wait... let me guess... missionaries? You can learn, as long is it's on their terms?

I moved here and wanted to learn things with an open mind, but the local, church-faring, Mormon community closed the doors to anyone not them. I'm friends with plenty of them as individuals, but as a group, there's a brick wall built between them and the rest of the world.

I've lived in several small towns across the country, some Liberal, some Conservative, some Libertarian. This isn't just a small town mind set or a Conservative mindset. There's a unique small-Mormon town mindset that's not like anything else in the country. I also live in Utah. I've been to Salt Lake. I'm basing my observations on entire towns, counties and states, not just a neighbor I once knew or one small group of individuals. How do you explain entire school districts not teaching certain subjects? States passing alcohol laws? Prayer allowed in public buildings (or not frowned upon at least)? As I said, not just one-off events or individuals, but entire groups conform to Mormon values despite laws stating otherwise.

But ultimately... seriously... let's talk about fireproof underwear!! Yep... right... another brick wall there. The undergarments are no secret, you see people wearing a t-shirt and then another "shirt" under it in 95 degree heat, but no one talks about the huge purple elephant in the room (or under their clothes). It's a "no fly zone" for conversation, yet you state that myself and people like me should "read up" on Mormons when I can't have a normal, rational, casual conversation with them about their clothing? I've asked Hasidic Jews about their clothing and they've been forthcoming, Buddhist monks about robes and they've been eager to explain, Catholic nuns about their outfits and again, all forthcoming. I ask Mormons what the story of the underwear is and I get a cold shoulder or casual laugh and a quick change of subject.

 

[isabellajay]

[MENTION=2890]Lerxst[/MENTION]mormon.org has answers to questions about our faith and it is a great source of information, you're just wanting to know all of the information that is sacred. It's not a matter of being a secret, we just consider it to be sacred. I don't really want to get into an argument about it though. I can respect that you have different beliefs, just please don't berate mine. With our "fireproof underwear" (ha can I ask who made that claim?), I can't say I know any more than you because I haven't reached the level of spiritual maturity they like you to have before making those covenants. I could prepare now if I wanted, I just don't think I'm ready.

And what terms are you talking about with the missionaries? They are simply teaching you, and like any lesson, you choose whether you will listen or not.

If you want to go inside a temple, go to an open house before it is dedicated. I think Utah has two coming up in the next couple years.

Thank you for sharing your opinion with me.