My Quest to Understand the INFJ

[slant]

If you want to be like an INFJ all you have to do is put faith in things that don't make a shred of sense and trust it; live on your impulses, go by 'vibes' or feelings you get that you might otherwise rationalize or ignore and feel overly emotional about everything. It's hard to get in such a frame of mind, but this can be achieved if you imitate behaviours of an INFJ. Focus on people as your main priorty: overanalyze every little detail and make things out to be something bigger than they are. When someone tells you something, assume their intentions and why they are telling you things; never ask them, assume that whatever they are telling you is a lie to hide the truth.

Seek the truth but ignore the facts when they come your way; completely disregard the facts because they aren't important, they don't point out what you want them to. Investigate areas of interest such as astrology, ghosts, mediums etc. Do not be skeptical of any mystical mysterious thing. Instead, be intrigued and 'open-minded'. Establish strong values that you are emotionally connected to and get extremely defensive when they are questions; avoid conflict at all costs, be avoidant if you have to.

Neglect your responsibilities the majority of the time but take care of things enough to be 'secure'. Develop strong visions and begin to believe you have an innate ability to understand people. Don't argue with people if you can avoid it, and only show your strong opinions with people you are close to; this might be difficult because the line between standing up for what you believe in and trying to please the people around you is very thin with an INFJ.

 

[Wyote]

Why do you say it will seem pointless? Am I just not smart enough to understand? Is it impossible to understand? Are you just embarrassed or otherwise reluctant to suggest things? I'm willing to try suggestions here.

How do you do the things you've mentioned? What procedures should I use for meditating/absorbing the environment subconsciously? How should I visualize how other people feel? I'm looking for concreteness here (I know it's tough for us as intuitives to think this way, but I'm asking for help here).

Not once have I made any sort of implication that you lack intelligence. I don't know why you are so standoffish with me, if I've done something to offend you personally, I am sorry and I assure you I had no intention of doing so. The reason I say it will seem pointless is because you are T and they are all things that (in my experience) have primarily interested Fs. If I were to say "you must learn ____ by doing such and such calculation and gather data from area yadda yadda whatever" this seems very pointless to Fs and very prudent to Ts.

The things I mentioned are very self explanatory. Also Slant's advice I found humorous but also probably effective to a certain extent.

 

[Duty]

Not once have I made any sort of implication that you lack intelligence. I don't know why you are so standoffish with me, if I've done something to offend you personally, I am sorry and I assure you I had no intention of doing so. The reason I say it will seem pointless is because you are T and they are all things that (in my experience) have primarily interested Fs. If I were to say "you must learn ____ by doing such and such calculation and gather data from area yadda yadda whatever" this seems very pointless to Fs and very prudent to Ts.

The things I mentioned are very self explanatory. Also Slant's advice I found humorous but also probably effective to a certain extent.

It sounds to me you're just saying I can't understand because I'm a T. First, I highly doubt any person is locked into being their personality type. Second, I've been told that I have to basically "step into the shoes of an INFJ" to understand one. I understand that part. Now I'm asking for you all to bring that down the ladder of abstraction. What activities do you think I should partake in to accomplish this? Should I keep a focus on certain things during this activity?

It's getting hard to progress this conversation. It has been generally agreed that I need to step into the shoes of INFJs in order to understand, but no one seems keen on volunteering how I do that in a specific way. This has nothing to do with F vs T, it just has to do with being too abstract for me to use your advice vs being specific and concrete about your advice so I can give it a try. I have the will here but I don't have the way.

 

[arbygil]

The problem might be Ni, Duty. To understand an INFJ you have to understand how to use Ni...and that's pretty down the list for most INTPs. The process we predominantly use is not one you're used to using. Plus the way we describe it isn't going to be a concrete way. We're very abstract - to make us be concrete calls us to choose a process we're not comfortable using. It can be done, but we might not explain it sufficiently for you.

There's not a 1-2-3 step process for being who we are and trying to make it so means we have to become someone we're not to describe it. Which is difficult for anyone.

If you can be patient with us, you'll probably get the answer out of us eventually.

 

[Blind Bandit]

Why do you say it will seem pointless? Am I just not smart enough to understand? Is it impossible to understand? Are you just embarrassed or otherwise reluctant to suggest things? I'm willing to try suggestions here.

How do you do the things you've mentioned? What procedures should I use for meditating/absorbing the environment subconsciously? How should I visualize how other people feel? I'm looking for concreteness here (I know it's tough for us as intuitives to think this way, but I'm asking for help here).

The problem is you want concrete answers to these questions and these are very hard to give.

My suggestion is to try and Use your other abilities besides just T.

You want clear instructions and I don't think we can give them.

Not once have I made any sort of implication that you lack intelligence. I don't know why you are so standoffish with me, if I've done something to offend you personally, I am sorry and I assure you I had no intention of doing so. The reason I say it will seem pointless is because you are T and they are all things that (in my experience) have primarily interested Fs. If I were to say "you must learn ____ by doing such and such calculation and gather data from area yadda yadda whatever" this seems very pointless to Fs and very prudent to Ts.

The things I mentioned are very self explanatory. Also Slant's advice I found humorous but also probably effective to a certain extent.

word

It sounds to me you're just saying I can't understand because I'm a T. First, I highly doubt any person is locked into being their personality type. Second, I've been told that I have to basically "step into the shoes of an INFJ" to understand one. I understand that part. Now I'm asking for you all to bring that down the ladder of abstraction. What activities do you think I should partake in to accomplish this? Should I keep a focus on certain things during this activity?

It's getting hard to progress this conversation. It has been generally agreed that I need to step into the shoes of INFJs in order to understand, but no one seems keen on volunteering how I do that in a specific way. This has nothing to do with F vs T, it just has to do with being too abstract for me to use your advice vs being specific and concrete about your advice so I can give it a try. I have the will here but I don't have the way.

Then you have to be willing to get past your own functions which you haven't been able to do so fair.

Everything I've seen from you is from T and its not changed.

As long as you come from a T prospective you won't be able to understand.

The problem might be Ni, Duty. To understand an INFJ you have to understand how to use Ni...and that's pretty down the list for most INTPs. The process we predominantly use is not one you're used to using. Plus the way we describe it isn't going to be a concrete way. We're very abstract - to make us be concrete calls us to choose a process we're not comfortable using. It can be done, but we might not explain it sufficiently for you.

There's not a 1-2-3 step process for being who we are and trying to make it so means we have to become someone we're not to describe it. Which is difficult for anyone.

If you can be patient with us, you'll probably get the answer out of us eventually.

Yes very very true.

The INFJ is not like deductive logic. We aren't an equation to figure out.

We are a personality that rely heavily on Ni and Fe. Which is not what you want to hear I'm sure.

So get past your T and you might figure out who we are.

 

[Duty]

Then you have to be willing to get past your own functions which you haven't been able to do so fair.

Everything I've seen from you is from T and its not changed.

As long as you come from a T prospective you won't be able to understand.



Yes very very true.

The INFJ is not like deductive logic. We aren't an equation to figure out.

We are a personality that rely heavily on Ni and Fe. Which is not what you want to hear I'm sure.

So get past your T and you might figure out who we are.

Forget it. I'm not getting help here and am just getting frustrated. You keep accusing me of "you're just using your T and you need to stop that." That sentence has little meaning without details. I need to know HOW to "stop using my T."

I've asked 3 times now for something concrete...not vague, abstract answers. I understand the abstractions very very well, but I don't understand how to implement it so I can do activities that are going to help me develop this.

It's ok guys, I'm asking you to do a sensor thing and you're all just uncomfortable doing it, or perhaps don't know how to do it. I'm frustrated with the fact that I'm getting no progress, but I'm not upset at any of you.

 

[arbygil]

Don't go away frustrated, though. If your hypothesis is INFJs are not psychic, then we need to look at that definition. What does it mean to be psychic? If psychic abilities simply means intuiting things that the average person does not because one looks at all the subtle subconscious clues, then yes. INFJs are psychic. If you're talking about psychic hotline, then I doubt anyone is psychic.

Give us your concrete definition for psychic, and we'll tell you if we are or not, as concretely as we can.

 

[Blind Bandit]

Forget it. I'm not getting help here and am just getting frustrated. You keep accusing me of "you're just using your T and you need to stop that." That sentence has little meaning without details. I need to know HOW to "stop using my T."

I've asked 3 times now for something concrete...not vague, abstract answers. I understand the abstractions very very well, but I don't understand how to implement it so I can do activities that are going to help me develop this.

It's ok guys, I'm asking you to do a sensor thing and you're all just uncomfortable doing it, or perhaps don't know how to do it. I'm frustrated with the fact that I'm getting no progress, but I'm not upset at any of you.

You wanted answers I gave you them honestly.

You aren't getting this. There is not an easy way to explain this to you.

And you must be willing to work things out on your own as well.

I can't give you step 1 step 2.

But I can say try using feelings and any gut feelings you may have that will get you closer. It won't be full proof but maybe that will work.

 

[Confused Mind]

It sounds to me you're just saying I can't understand because I'm a T. First, I highly doubt any person is locked into being their personality type. Second, I've been told that I have to basically "step into the shoes of an INFJ" to understand one. I understand that part. Now I'm asking for you all to bring that down the ladder of abstraction. What activities do you think I should partake in to accomplish this? Should I keep a focus on certain things during this activity?

It's getting hard to progress this conversation. It has been generally agreed that I need to step into the shoes of INFJs in order to understand, but no one seems keen on volunteering how I do that in a specific way. This has nothing to do with F vs T, it just has to do with being too abstract for me to use your advice vs being specific and concrete about your advice so I can give it a try. I have the will here but I don't have the way.

The way I use Ni is if someone says, "Whoa, you are awesome." I ask myself, Are they being complimentary? Snarky? If it's the former, are they annoyed at me for doing something or are they just having a bad day? Then i use my Se to pick up further clues to verify or deny one or more of my assumptions (tone of voice, body language, facial expression). My mindset is "There is always something below the surface." I hope this helps. Basically just question things. Ex. This person is saying one thing but is there more to it?" Also, just go with your gut and don't overanalyze yourself. When INFJs overuse Ti, it stumps their Ni. In a sense, to get into the shoes of an INFJ, I think you have to downplay your Ti and go w/ your gut using Ni. I think this might help you step into the INFJ mindset.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Now, an INTP, compared to other personalities, is extremely unmoved by social expectations...To an INFJ, this is extremely puzzling I imagine, as they feel "challenged."Well, the thing is, my earlier hypothesis would be supported by this...that INFJs aren't "psychic" at all.

(note, this a quick reply - I haven't read the whole thread so far - sorry, I'll get around to that soon)

This a good observation, but I would add that social expectations is but one area in which we INFJs notice patterns. INTPs are have their own patterns, however, their patterns of behavior are less determined by circumstance than other types, as you have noted.

I suspect that the 'psychic' lable gets applied to INFJs because we are able to read certain signs which communicate feelings/intention which are not ordinary means of communication.

Ordinary means: speech, writing, commonly understood hand and facial expressions, etc.
Uncommon/unconscious means of communication: posture, subtle movements, tone/pitch of voice, breathing rate, etc.

The term psychic, if it means the ability to receive information communicated by another person, especially if that person is not conscious of having communicated it, could be applied to INFJs.

 

[Tamagochi]

Hi Duty, - it was amusing to read your argument. Having myself spent a lot of time around "T" types, I can understand why you got frustrated in the end.

I can support your reasoning, because "reading" people in social situations can in fact be attributed to Ni and Fe going on unconsciously in the background of the mind. And if someone does not emit any information to the outside - we cannot read their minds. At least not on a normal day

However there are some cases when it cannot be explained by this simple reasoning. You can read about them here. Examples are: feeling someone’s pain over great distance, knowing what song will play next on the radio etc. I had some of these experiences myself, though their validity as “supernatural” is questionable of course.

 

[Angelbabe2000]

INFJ's are psychic.
Some more than others.
Sorry. That's just the truth of it.

We can project and pick up thoughts. That might lead some to claim telepathy, but that would be mis-nomer.

Anyone can be psychic. That's what yoga and Eastern religion is all about is: no faith needed; dont take our word for it. try it yourself.

Psychic skills can be learned by any one. There are various methods. One good book is: Your Sixth Sense: Activating Your Psychic Potential.

Slant, dont know your personality type, but I say dont close yr mind to things. 15 is too young for that. You got another 80 plus years of life in you. Be open.
Know that this physical level of reality is not the ONLY level of reality. Look deeper. See farther.

 

[acd]

Hear that slant? yerr goona live to 95+. A psychic said so.

 

[CoffeeShopDiva]

I want to, too!

Duty - perhaps you could pose specific questions to us rather than trying to get us to explain our thought process. I don't know if it would help.

 

[Auburn]

Then what is your suggestion?

Hey Duty, another INTP here.

I hope it's not too late to write this.
It seems you were a little outnumbered in this thread.
I hope I can help clarify things for you using a language (NT) you are more familiar with.

Your opening post was fashioned, whether intentionally or not, to an NT. I see nothing wrong with it myself, but I also understand exactly why it came across the way it did to many here.

Though you've been accused of drawing premature conclusions about the nature of INFJs, I know this is not so, because INTPs rarely make concrete decisions. We may state them as such, but only to probe another NT type to disprove them and enlighten us with their observations of the argument we presented.

However, to adequately communicate with NF types, it's more complicated for us. The best method I've learned for communicating with NF types is to use a sort of dual-filter for my thoughts.

Let me explain this further. We usually use Ti as our primary filter. The data received by Ne is analyzed here and either judged as reasonable or not. From this we form logical constructs and models. I'm sure you're familiar with this, but I only wrote this so we both know what we're talking about.

The second filter is to predict the reactions that said models will bring from people when presented before their eyes. This is sometimes difficult for us, I know. It's true that for some types, this comes naturally, while for some of us, we would require a Ph.D in psychology to make these predictions.

Our Ti-Ne core can help predict reactions form people to a certain extent, but truly Fe would be the most adequate function to use for this as it can make us feel whether a sentence would be appropriate or not if posted. Sadly I realize many INTPs do not have a developed Fe function.

However, ideally, once your logical model is formed, then analyze and foretell what types of reactions your audience (in this case INFJs) will have to your model. If you can predict certain phrases will yield controversial responses, then adjust them. The more you practice this, the better you will become at it.

We usually skip this filter altogether and just state our logical constructs and models without any awareness of how they may be perceived. Consequently the reactions we get are not what we desired, an I believe this is due to our unawareness/lack of knowledge in human psychology or what may be to some NF types; common knowledge.

Even if you cannot summon the will to do this out of genuine care and consideration (Fe) for them, at least do it considering the logic that unless such an approach is taken, you will not received the desired data in return, hence your efforts will be vain.

~Auburn~

 

[Reon]

I had a flash of insight and wrote this in an IM, critique is welcome:

Me:
I understand why INFJs can be so intrigued by INTPs now.
it's because INFJs really really don't have a psychic sense at all.
Fe is just the picking up of feeling by pitting it against the information received by another function
As the thing you sent me said: Fe is a measure of social rituals, dress, etc based on the circumstances presented
Any oddity in those rituals, to an Fe strong personality, is represented an expression of emotion
If I start dressing for work by wearing ripped up jeans and a tight tshirt and a punk hairdo...i'm supposedly expressing discontentment and belligerence
If I never show up to social functions that a specific friend invites me to, I'm showing that I don't want to be around that friend.
That's how an Fe strong personality takes these things.
Now, this judgment function of Fe is fed by an INFJ's Ni.
Ni sees patterns.
INFJs have a particularly strong sense of the social patterns that are expected to happen in association with a given emotion.
They recognize more of those patterns then do the average person.
So it may seem an INFJ is "psychic" to a personality type that is effected by these rituals and symbols in our society.
Because an INFJ can seemingly predict how they feel or will respond to these rituals and symbols.
Friend:
I can see that.
Me:
Add in familiarity with the person's normal responses to these rituals and symbols and they get more accurate.
Me:
Now, an INTP, compared to other personalities, is extremely unmoved by social expectations.
Often, they just don't know what the expectation is in the first place.
Let alone make an emotional connection to the ritual or expectation.
INTPs are far more disconnected from being provoked to emotional response to social rituals, expectations, and symbols. They may recognize them, even recognize they have an emotional impact on others, but they don't have this reaction themselves.
To an INFJ, this is extremely puzzling I imagine, as they feel "challenged."
Well, the thing is, my earlier hypothesis would be supported by this...that INFJs aren't "psychic" at all.
They just have a developed sense of how people react to certain symbols, patterns, and the like in society.
Which, is not to diminish their gifts, but perhaps to bring down this notion that INFJs think they have some connection to the supernatural world of emotion.
There is nothing supernatural about it, but it is no less remarkable.
INFJs just tend to understand people much better then others because they understand the implications of the social patterns that have a subconscious effect on the majority of people...and because it is subconscious, understanding it seems to somehow be a "psychic" sense.

initial thoughts:

Do other infjs claim to be physic ? That's absurd and ludicrous
Does Fe really 'measure' social ritual? I thought that was another function.(if they value tradition and ritual, I guess I could see it)
Infjs get interested in intps in order to understand then, am I getting this correct?

<offtopic>

why do you think people can change their mbti over time? i'm quite interested in your answer.

Edit: His post didn't come off NTish to me, but hey, I tend to spend my time on the intj forum. Maybe i'm different

 

[evalura]

Then what is your suggestion? Every time I get to this point and ask for suggestions I get answers that say it's impossible to just experience what it's like to be INFJ, no one understands INFJs so don't try, or "you just have to step inside our shoes." I need something concrete to try here. I get the abstract concept: step into your house and view it from the inside instead of viewing it through the window of my own house, but I need ways to go about doing this. I need you all to bridge the gap between such an abstraction and give me some concrete exercises to do.

Until that point, I can only mold statues out of the marble I have.

I appreciate your interest in learning how we function. Most people would cast us off as weird and leave it at that. We may be able to predict what people are about to do or say due to memorized observations of human nature. We might experience more synchronicities?