Ne + Fi = Assumptions

[Honey]

Hi Von Hase, I have not bothered to post here since I registered and I mostly just lurk whenever I remember that this forum exists, besides someone usually says what I was going to say anyway, however I felt moved to respond to this topic because I have been really angry and extremely frustrated with the four types you mentioned for quite a while now.

All the problems I have had with them are exactly and I do mean exactly as you have described.

1. Their belief that if you are critical of them or someone they like on certain issues then that must mean that somehow you must not like them/the person they like or are attempting to attack them.

2. Once they have formed certain assumptions about you they are practically unshakeable and it is then extremely difficult to get them to reconsider. Personally, I do not bother to even try these days because they tend not to like external efforts to convince them that they might be incorrect.

3. The "coalition tactic" is also extremely irritating and unfair. You are trying to sort out an issue with one of them individually and if it appears they are not doing that well and so they try to call in support from the "masses" (and they are extremely good at this) and pretty soon you get the feeling that they are trying to create a gang against you and what is more, it is at this point too that they start being very personal, brutal and aggressive in their attacks directed at you and they make you out to be some kind of "bad" person, again very personal.

4. A related point to the above is that when they have decided to be brutal, rude, personal and aggressive they assume that your attempts to remain civil, polite and diplomatic and not harshly spill your guts like they are doing then you must somehow be fake. You might have seen this too that you have a problem A related to them that is bothering you and that you are trying to get some help with it so you can get along better with them, instead of helping you with Problem A they will suddenly turn the issue away from problem A, get defensive and start saying you are or have the problem yourself and in addition you are also problem B-Z and the specific issue of how to deal with Problem A like you wanted is not dealt with. It seems they take every negative comment as a personal attack against them and now I have started to wonder because of that if when they make a negative comment about me if that means that they do not like me too.

5. One that you have not mentioned specifically but which I have experienced a lot as well with these types is blatant projection of their own weaknesses unto others. All types project to some extent I think however I find that if an INFJ has some negative fault they tend to like to own it and do something about it and are not usually rigid about questioning the truth about themselves, I think this is because INFJs tend to have a less strong sense of our own self understanding than say an INFP. With the four types mentioned it is like their whole self esteem is revolving around being good people and so they just seem to have greater difficulties acknowledging their flaws but somehow can see these exact flaws that they have in others who absolutely do not have them at all and this feature in particular can cause you to question if you are losing your own sanity and sense of what is real and what is truly you especially if you are an INFJ child with parents of these types.

I concede that my thinking on this might be somewhat irritional at this point because my strong negative emotions against these types formed from years of experience might be clouding my judgement. When I know that a person is ESTJ, INFP, ENFP or ISTJ I stay well clear of them usually because dealing with them even when I do like them is so painful and conflicting.

I would also like to add that I think the Se-Si conflict is at the heart of the problems too. No disrespect to anyone who has made a suggestion to you so far but I have tried all of them and none of them worked coming from me, repetition of yourself and your views are unlikely to cause them to rethink their assumptions, I find that because the four functions we are using is different from the four these types are using overall we do not communicate well on differences and conflicts with each other despite our best efforts. What I find works a bit is to bring in a third party that both sides trust and who also share some functions with both sides to communicate through but this does not always work either. This is why I like to stay away from these types or if I really like many things about them to keep a certain distance and interact superficially even though I would prefer some type of more positive interaction with them because they often have many great positive qualities too.

 

[Goatman455]

Hi Von Hase, I have not bothered to post here since I registered and I mostly just lurk whenever I remember that this forum exists, besides someone usually says what I was going to say anyway, however I felt moved to respond to this topic because I have been really angry and extremely frustrated with the four types you mentioned for quite a while now.

All the problems I have had with them are exactly and I do mean exactly as you have described.

1. Their belief that if you are critical of them or someone they like on certain issues then that must mean that somehow you must not like them/the person they like or are attempting to attack them.

2. Once they have formed certain assumptions about you they are practically unshakeable and it is then extremely difficult to get them to reconsider. Personally, I do not bother to even try these days because they tend not to like external efforts to convince them that they might be incorrect.

3. The "coalition tactic" is also extremely irritating and unfair. You are trying to sort out an issue with one of them individually and if it appears they are not doing that well and so they try to call in support from the "masses" (and they are extremely good at this) and pretty soon you get the feeling that they are trying to create a gang against you and what is more, it is at this point too that they start being very personal, brutal and aggressive in their attacks directed at you and they make you out to be some kind of "bad" person, again very personal.

4. A related point to the above is that when they have decided to be brutal, rude, personal and aggressive they assume that your attempts to remain civil, polite and diplomatic and not harshly spill your guts like they are doing then you must somehow be fake. You might have seen this too that you have a problem A related to them that is bothering you and that you are trying to get some help with it so you can get along better with them, instead of helping you with Problem A they will suddenly turn the issue away from problem A, get defensive and start saying you are or have the problem yourself and in addition you are also problem B-Z and the specific issue of how to deal with Problem A like you wanted is not dealt with. It seems they take every negative comment as a personal attack against them and now I have started to wonder because of that if when they make a negative comment about me if that means that they do not like me too.

5. One that you have not mentioned specifically but which I have experienced a lot as well with these types is blatant projection of their own weaknesses unto others. All types project to some extent I think however I find that if an INFJ has some negative fault they tend to like to own it and do something about it and are not usually rigid about questioning the truth about themselves, I think this is because INFJs tend to have a less strong sense of our own self understanding than say an INFP. With the four types mentioned it is like their whole self esteem is revolving around being good people and so they just seem to have greater difficulties acknowledging their flaws but somehow can see these exact flaws that they have in others who absolutely do not have them at all and this feature in particular can cause you to question if you are losing your own sanity and sense of what is real and what is truly you especially if you are an INFJ child with parents of these types.

I concede that my thinking on this might be somewhat irritional at this point because my strong negative emotions against these types formed from years of experience might be clouding my judgement. When I know that a person is ESTJ, INFP, ENFP or ISTJ I stay well clear of them usually because dealing with them even when I do like them is so painful and conflicting.

I would also like to add that I think the Se-Si conflict is at the heart of the problems too. No disrespect to anyone who has made a suggestion to you so far but I have tried all of them and none of them worked coming from me, repetition of yourself and your views are unlikely to cause them to rethink their assumptions, I find that because the four functions we are using is different from the four these types are using overall we do not communicate well on differences and conflicts with each other despite our best efforts. What I find works a bit is to bring in a third party that both sides trust and who also share some functions with both sides to communicate through but this does not always work either. This is why I like to stay away from these types or if I really like many things about them to keep a certain distance and interact superficially even though I would prefer some type of more positive interaction with them because they often have many great positive qualities too.

I am sorry you guys feel this way and I apologize for anyone who has mistreated you or assumed things. I personally have noticed this in every type, especially EJs, ENFJs really do all these things IMO. Perhaps I do too, and I don't want to hurt you guys, so I apologize in advance, but I just felt that you guys are stereotyping a bit too much and making assumptions of your own in a negative manner. Still you are more than welcome to have your own opinions and I respect that.

 

[minkowski thermodynamics]

Both Goatman and Von Hase/Honey are correct.

This might seem like more of the relativism that Blind Bandit doesn't like , but I actually have been on both sides of the fence.

I had an infp ex-girlfriend who I absolutely loved, and she loved me, but once she got the crazy idea into her head that I was not as attracted to her body type as I said, there was nothing I could do to assuage her or reassure her. She also projected her own faults unto other people alot like Honey said. I spotted this quite early in our relationship, and I suppose a part of me wanted to save her because I saw the good buried beneath her flaws. Little did I know that these flaws would eventually lead to her dumping me in a most painful way.


However, she was decidedly an unhealthy example of her type, and I feel no need as yet to tar all INFP's or deliberately avoid them. Yes, perhaps this type is more susceptible to this flaw, just like how Jews are susceptible to Tay Sachs, but this doesn't mean that all Jews have the disease.



Von Hase, if you were in love with an INFP girl like I was, obviously it means that you are capable of appreciating the good qualities that INFP's have, just like I was able to appreciate my ex-girlfriend's good qualities. So I think it's not so much that you hate INFP's, just this potential pitfall that could occur.

I would encourage you and Honey to pay more attention to the flaw than to the type. In other words, instead of avoiding all INFP's in a blanket "I hate INFP's!!!" way, just avoid those ones who exhibit the flaw.

There are potential pitfalls/misunderstandings that could occur with INFJ's too. You wouldn't appreciate being tarred with one brush. The thing with type is that life can potentially be so complex that our own unique experiences add all these other variables into the mix which can make for great differences between people within the same type.

I hope my post didn't come across as too preachy, that was not my intent. It's just that in this case, both sides (Goatman and Von Hase) are right in a way, and I can personally relate to both sides.

 

[mjgjr706]

Here is my short answer... I am completely, utterly, ridiculously, deeply, unimpressed with humanity so much so that worrying about what they assume doesnt even cross my mind... I guess being NT helps there but in my opinion it isnt worth all that... I say let them jump to conclusions all they want... The only good thing about people is that they offer me test subjects for my psychological escapades...

 

[Goatman455]

Here is my short answer... I am completely, utterly, ridiculously, deeply, unimpressed with humanity so much so that worrying about what they assume doesnt even cross my mind... I guess being NT helps there but in my opinion it isnt worth all that... I say let them jump to conclusions all they want... The only good thing about people is that they offer me test subjects for my psychological escapades...

I have felt like this before, except for the test subject part, lol. The way I eventually saw it was that I was becoming part of the problem by feeling that way about people. Sure, there are some serious D-bags out there, but most of the problems people have with each other are due to misunderstandings or not giving each other the benefit of the doubt.

I really hope we can get over these assumptions about people and realize that there is in fact a lot of good in most people, even if we can't always realize it.

BTW,
I still don't get how Ps are supposed to be making more assumptions than Js. Also, the irony of the original statement being an assumption is something I am also not understanding. What's more any attempt to explore other sides of the issue result in relativism arguments. I have to agree with you 100% or I am being too relativistic. You guys must have met some whacked out unhealthy, moronic Ps. (no, that's not an oxymoron

 

[Goatman455]

I just thought of something else. I know as an ENFP I tend to talk out some of my thought process where I know many NFJs do not. Perhaps you are seeing this thought process or observations as more solid than they are meant. I can muse things over out loud or pop out things that most people keep in their mind or subconscious, I kind of release them and it can help me to think or put things together. Perhaps you are seeing these things as a bit more solid than they really are or seeing them as judgments, when they are not.

Just an idea.

 

[mjgjr706]

Hi GM455... Just so you know I dont allow my test subjects to know my contempt and ill will... They think I am the coolest guy ever... I am not mean I just understand how things work on a deeper level than most... I dont mistreat the animals I just put them to work so to speak... hahaha

 

[Goatman455]

Hi GM455... Just so you know I dont allow my test subjects to know my contempt and ill will... They think I am the coolest guy ever... I am not mean I just understand how things work on a deeper level than most... I dont mistreat the animals I just put them to work so to speak... hahaha

HAHAHA, oh man, at least you are manipulating ethically with humility, I can respect that.







I really look at this like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. The idea is that Dr. Jekyll completely denied his negativity and that in doing so, became Mr. Hyde and released and projected it on everyone else. The theme of the story is that if you can't face and accept your own negativity, you are going to push that very evil on others. I think that this story is a perfect example of how HUMAN this trait is. I don't think it is defined to any one type, and if we make these assumptions we are going to see others very negatively. That is a decision that is up to the individual, but I don't think viewing things in an extremely negative, or an extremely positive manner is going to get closer to the "truth", rather it will just make one more extreme and prone to misjudgments. I have noticed Von's ideas in many different types and I feel for you Von, they are very frustrating traits (I know because I hate all those things people are saying and attempt to curb them in others), but please for my sake, don't box me in with those people in your life who have accused you of doing things you aren't doing then stuck to those assumptions like glue. It is my understanding that is completely against MBTI type theory anyway. J's are supposedly more like to stick to their assumptions than Ps who operate more spontaneously. This doesn't mean it can't happen, but we can't just discard our communication medium on this topic.

From Myersbriggs.org


P
"Others see me staying open to new experiences and information."

"Since this pair only describes what I prefer in the outer world, inside I may feel very planful or decisive (which I am)."

"Sometimes I stay open to new information so long I miss making decisions when they are needed. "

J
"To others, I seem to prefer a planned or orderly way of life, like to have things settled and organized, feel more comfortable when decisions are made, and like to bring life under control as much as possible."

"Since this pair only describes what I prefer in the outer world, I may, inside, feel flexible and open to new information (which I am)."

"Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information."



Here in this post we have a trend of the Js wanting things in the outer world set, and seeing Ps trying to keep things more flexible and open to new information. As this points out though, how we see ourselves in our inner world can be completely different (I would modify "which I am" to "which I can be" btw, just so it fits more people, look at that, flexible).

Let's all try this: Let's try and accept each other and see each others strengths some, at least balance out the negative with the positive. mjgjr706 you are exempt from this, lol.

 

[Kaipaus]

As a probable INFP and someone who also knows some NFPs, I actually don't understand what you're talking about. The behaviour that you described in the OP seems very regrettable and irritating, but I don't see its correlation to type. I used to date a person... whose type I'm not sure about... perhaps an ENTP or ESTP (so, Ne-Ti or Se-Ti)... who constantly made all these false judgments about me and it was irritating, but with my sister, for instance, who's an INFP, I haven't had these kinds of misunderstandings with.

Then again, some people have said that I tend to make judgments like that too easily. x) But they say it good-naturedly, in a "silly you" sort of way, and then we sniff and laugh about it together.

 

[mjgjr706]

Thank you GM455 for exempting me Now I can continue my experiments in peace and free from the prying eyes of a well balanced look at reality... I mean its mostly evil anyway right?

 

[arbygil]

Personally chiming in (my two cents):

I think we need to see what Von Hase is trying to do in two ways. He's not in any way stereotyping folks but he *is* indicating personal experiences and he's trying to explain why type conflicts occur. We all have type conflicts because we all have conflicts with one another. But there are types we will come into conflict with more often, simply because our thought processes are not the same - and simply because we don't process the information we receive the same way.

I don't, for any moment, see "all X's act like this" in his words. I see one person relating personal accounts, or a few people relating personal accounts of how they felt when they had type conflicts. Mind you, it could definitely border on stereotyping behavior. But note this: There were positive examples given as well as negative, and those positive examples are all around the forum. I think it's rather unfair (speaking for myself, here - I'm not representing anyone) to point out parts of his arguments without taking in all of what he's saying here. Or what Honey is saying.

Truth is, INFJs *do* have conflicts. Our most common conflicts are with the MBTI's mentioned above for the most part, and sometimes we have to analyze why this occurs. Does this mean we're calling out all of those folks and calling all of them evil? No. Not at all. That's not the point of the OP, IMO. The point, I feel, is him simply saying conflict exists, and here could be some reasons why by way of personal example.

Heck, if he changed the wording and we were suddenly talking about minority groups instead of MBTI I'd still be willing to discuss it because we're learning something about one another and how we conflict. You have to talk about these things in order to understand why the conflict happens, and it's not stereotyping (or "typist") to talk about it.

 

[minkowski thermodynamics]

Truth is, INFJs *do* have conflicts. Our most common conflicts are with the MBTI's mentioned above for the most part, and sometimes we have to analyze why this occurs. Does this mean we're calling out all of those folks and calling all of them evil? No. Not at all. That's not the point of the OP, IMO. The point, I feel, is him simply saying conflict exists, and here could be some reasons why by way of personal example.

Excellent points, as usual arbygil.

In a conflict, one party could be at fault, or both.

I think the reason why people like Goatman became defensive is because according to the way the posts are written (i.e. in an understandably emotionally charged manner), it's easy to interpret it as a one-sided dump against all Ne+Fi users.

It's as if they (Von Hase and Honey) were saying "conflicts happen because X side has all these faults." (I'm not saying that this is what happened, I'm saying it's easy to interpret it like this because of the emotionally charged language they used.)

I think we need a parallell thread that shows how type conflict could happen because Y side has such and such faults.

In other words, a thread that lists the potential flaws of Ni+Fe users. (As Goatman pointed out, there can be issues with these types)

Then perhaps both sides could see if a new tactic of meeting halfway could resolve the situations where both X and Y are at fault.

Granted, there will still be situations where X is solely to blame, and situations where Y is solely to blame.

Or you could just say, this is an INFJ forum, so screw those non-infj's who feel offended.:mp:

 

[Pristinegirl]

I'm sorry you had to go through that :/ Its not you, its them!! It sounds as if they feel bad about something within themselves, having a primary assumption that what you said 'could not be valid' as it does not fit in with their expectation or view of themselves.

I think we should be cautions to paint personalities under the same brush like that though. I think alot comes down to the person.

 

[Goatman455]

Personally chiming in (my two cents):

I think we need to see what Von Hase is trying to do in two ways. He's not in any way stereotyping folks but he *is* indicating personal experiences and he's trying to explain why type conflicts occur. We all have type conflicts because we all have conflicts with one another. But there are types we will come into conflict with more often, simply because our thought processes are not the same - and simply because we don't process the information we receive the same way.

I don't, for any moment, see "all X's act like this" in his words. I see one person relating personal accounts, or a few people relating personal accounts of how they felt when they had type conflicts. Mind you, it could definitely border on stereotyping behavior. But note this: There were positive examples given as well as negative, and those positive examples are all around the forum. I think it's rather unfair (speaking for myself, here - I'm not representing anyone) to point out parts of his arguments without taking in all of what he's saying here. Or what Honey is saying.

Truth is, INFJs *do* have conflicts. Our most common conflicts are with the MBTI's mentioned above for the most part, and sometimes we have to analyze why this occurs. Does this mean we're calling out all of those folks and calling all of them evil? No. Not at all. That's not the point of the OP, IMO. The point, I feel, is him simply saying conflict exists, and here could be some reasons why by way of personal example.

Heck, if he changed the wording and we were suddenly talking about minority groups instead of MBTI I'd still be willing to discuss it because we're learning something about one another and how we conflict. You have to talk about these things in order to understand why the conflict happens, and it's not stereotyping (or "typist") to talk about it.

Stereotype definition:
" a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group:"

As you can see here, this is what is happening. MBTI doesn't stereotype because it doesn't claim that types will act certain ways. The second we do that we are stereotyping.

With that said, it is tough to talk about this topic without stereotyping so sorry if I do and here I go:

The OP may be coming from a good place, but the results of these judgments are disastrous in my opinion. Also, Von Hase has also tested as an ENFJ. I have talked with him about this, as personally from reading his posts I was inclined put him in the ENFJ category. There is a big difference between an introverted ENFJ and an extroverted INFJ, huge. Now of course, far be it from me to tell anyone their type, perhaps he has since decided on INFJ, but he said himself he was having issues figuring it out so I gave my two cents. Personally I have never had big issues with INFJs, though I have had some with ENFJs. I find the xxxJ/xxxP relationship can cause some issues, but to just blanket everyone like that isn't right. There was no sense of "this is just an idea" or "I could be wrong here" it seemed like a closed belief, and in my opinion one that is harmful to himself and others. ENFJs I have noticed seem more fixed in their viewpoints when they express them. "This is how I feel and that is that" kind of mindset. INFJs like yourself arbygil, well you can see it in your wording. You are taking things slower, you are interesting in exploring the issue, etc. I don't want to hurt anyone here, but to see this kind of hypocritical statement made with only anecdotal backing evidence just isn't sitting correctly with me.

People have the right to believe what they want to believe, but I don't think the MBTI institute for example, or the founders of MBTI would agree with the statements made in this thread.


"I don't, for any moment, see "all X's act like this" in his words. I see one person relating personal accounts, or a few people relating personal accounts of how they felt when they had type conflicts."

The post is carefully worded to avoid seeming like this, but this line says it all:

"I've noticed lately that the combination of Ne and Fi (ENFP, INFP, ISTJ, and ESTJ) may lead to assumptions that are very strongly believed, yet ludicrously wrong."

Here we have a NI-Fe user doing exactly the thing he hates, making assumptions. This is also stating that the combination of Ne-Fi regardless of functional preference order 'may' lead to these assumptions. If he really had personal issues he could say "Help with types that make assumptions" and then talked about his anecdotal experience, rather than trying to say that Ne-Fi can cause this, anything can cause this.

May is a key word here, but it can be ambiguous. May mean maybe, on the other hand, here given the 'whole' post it seems more solid than 'may'. I could make this statement about any combination of preferences and it 'may' be correct.

I think you can't expect to box people with these functions in and then expect them not to come back and tell you that it isn't correct. I personally have noticed everything this topic covers in ENFJs I have had experience with, I mean this topic seems in my experience to better cover them.


I also have to point out the fact that making assumptions I have noticed is correlated with J behavior, though all types do it. MBTI claims this as well, sometimes decisions are made without taking in enough information.

This doesn't a P like myself won't do this, but it just isn't normal or natural for us to be making judgments that are not open to change all the time as in the experience he is having.

Don't you think it is possible he had a few bad experiences and is overgeneralizing just a little bit? I mean it is human nature, I have done it, I am sure you have done it, hell we all do it from time to time, it's normal.

The danger comes when we associate that behavior and start categorizing and boxing it up without collecting enough information to do so.

Again:

P
"Others see me staying open to new experiences and information."

"Since this pair only describes what I prefer in the outer world, inside I may feel very planful or decisive (which I am)."

"Sometimes I stay open to new information so long I miss making decisions when they are needed. "

J
"To others, I seem to prefer a planned or orderly way of life, like to have things settled and organized, feel more comfortable when decisions are made, and like to bring life under control as much as possible."

"Since this pair only describes what I prefer in the outer world, I may, inside, feel flexible and open to new information (which I am)."

"Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information."



So if we have to make a stereotype in MBTI about assumptions it would be more accurate to say J=assumptions or "strong extroverted judging=assumptions". Which in my opinion is too solid of a statement, but more true than Ne-Fi=assumptions.

 

[arbygil]

Stereotype definition:
" a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group:"

Thanks - I do understand the definition, I truly do. But in usage, I prefer this particular definition from the dictionary (Dictonary.com): "A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image."

I didn't see his opinions or conceptions as either oversimplified or conventional, but they might be a tad formulaic.

I think we even have to break it down because we're both seeing different definitions of it. But other than that, let me try and go through what you've written, step by step, and I'll agree with what I agree with, and discuss with you what I don't.

As you can see here, this is what is happening. MBTI doesn't stereotype because it doesn't claim that types will act certain ways. The second we do that we are stereotyping.

I disagree with this - MBTI categorizes people simply because of type. MBTI *is* stereotyping. It's making the assumption that because you have certain preferences, that you're going to act particular ways. That's what the descriptions of the types are all about. It doesn't say that you will always act like that, but it does mention that the typical INFJ/INTP/INTJ/etc. will have certain responses to certain stimuli. That's not stereotyping; that's observation.

So if you're saying MBTI doesn't claim types will act certain ways, what are you saying type theory descriptions are? I need to know this, for better communication purposes.

With that said, it is tough to talk about this topic without stereotyping so sorry if I do and here I go:

The OP may be coming from a good place, but the results of these judgments are disastrous in my opinion.

How so? Judgments are pretty much all over the place here. Sometimes they're valid, sometimes they're invalid. But they're discussions, and for the most part the discussions are fairly tame. Every once in a while discussions about type do get heated, but hopefully either a mod will step in or a member will, if they feel as if the problem has escalated. We're fairly good at self-policing on the forum, I think.

Also, Von Hase has also tested as an ENFJ. I have talked with him about this, as personally from reading his posts I was inclined put him in the ENFJ category. There is a big difference between an introverted ENFJ and an extroverted INFJ, huge. Now of course, far be it from me to tell anyone their type, perhaps he has since decided on INFJ, but he said himself he was having issues figuring it out so I gave my two cents. Personally I have never had big issues with INFJs, though I have had some with ENFJs. I find the xxxJ/xxxP relationship can cause some issues, but to just blanket everyone like that isn't right. There was no sense of "this is just an idea" or "I could be wrong here" it seemed like a closed belief, and in my opinion one that is harmful to himself and others. ENFJs I have noticed seem more fixed in their viewpoints when they express them. "This is how I feel and that is that" kind of mindset. INFJs like yourself arbygil, well you can see it in your wording. You are taking things slower, you are interesting in exploring the issue, etc. I don't want to hurt anyone here, but to see this kind of hypocritical statement made with only anecdotal backing evidence just isn't sitting correctly with me.

Ok, I can see how it can be uncomfortable. I wonder though, could this also be fairly personal for you as well? Are you feeling as if Von is taking unnecessary digs at the ENFP or NFP types in general, instead of discussing it? How would you change the discussion to balance what he might be trying to say, versus what you'd like to see or say? Von H. has been pretty vocal in his fluid MBTI type, but he's definitely open to discussing different methods of getting there. It's interesting to see his journey and how he gets there. He's been on the board for a while, though, and I could very well be biased because his theories are interesting to me.

Do you feel he's being offensive to you and/or other members of the forum? If so, maybe it could help if you two discuss how you're both feeling in a new thread, and maybe perhaps we could all benefit from what's happening. I'm not saying there's a "thing" at all, but I'm wondering if things are getting too personal all around.

People have the right to believe what they want to believe, but I don't think the MBTI institute for example, or the founders of MBTI would agree with the statements made in this thread.

That's hard to judge, because I don't know. I know type discussions go on all over the world, but I'm not sure where the line might be between honest discussion and stereotyping unless people flat out say, "I hate X type because Y type did this to me." I guess for me, I try to see the intention of the posters and try to help balance what's said, or the words of both to help foster better communication. Diplomacy, if you will.

"I don't, for any moment, see "all X's act like this" in his words. I see one person relating personal accounts, or a few people relating personal accounts of how they felt when they had type conflicts."

The post is carefully worded to avoid seeming like this, but this line says it all:

"I've noticed lately that the combination of Ne and Fi (ENFP, INFP, ISTJ, and ESTJ) may lead to assumptions that are very strongly believed, yet ludicrously wrong."

Here we have a NI-Fe user doing exactly the thing he hates, making assumptions. This is also stating that the combination of Ne-Fi regardless of functional preference order 'may' lead to these assumptions. If he really had personal issues he could say "Help with types that make assumptions" and then talked about his anecdotal experience, rather than trying to say that Ne-Fi can cause this, anything can cause this.

May is a key word here, but it can be ambiguous. May mean maybe, on the other hand, here given the 'whole' post it seems more solid than 'may'. I could make this statement about any combination of preferences and it 'may' be correct.

*Nod.* But I don't know if the word "may" should be treated with the same strength as leaving the word out or using a stronger, more definitive term. I agree with you, though, that perhaps the wording has come on a bit strong. I have wondered lately if some of our INFP friends have felt a little uncomfortable because we've been talking about 'em negatively lately (sorry, INFP bros and sis'tahs!). I can agree that perhaps Von's wording was strong, but I don't think he was intending to say this happens in every conversation. I do think it happens enough that it warrants discussion, though. Some INFJs feel blindsided when they talk to people with strong extroverted intuition. I know sometimes I do, especially when I'm in disagreement. Because suddenly there's misunderstanding, and I don't know how it happened. Because it's happened often enough for me, I'd like to see how I could improve how I communicate in order to convey exactly how I'm feeling. I certainly don't puzzle piece together someone's personality the moment I meet them, but if I have a disagreement with someone I have to run that conversation back through my brain and figure out what went wrong, and why. Sometimes I don't have answers - and that's when I rely on outside sources to help me figure it out. I know I'm not the best at it; but I like hearing others' theories so I can figure out what to do next time. And really, that's my main reason for listening to folks who mention type conflicts. It's not to rant or say, "yeah, they're all a bunch'a XXX!!!". Instead it's (hopefully) one way I can learn how to be a better communicator.

I think you can't expect to box people with these functions in and then expect them not to come back and tell you that it isn't correct. I personally have noticed everything this topic covers in ENFJs I have had experience with, I mean this topic seems in my experience to better cover them.

As you said, it's difficult to have these types of discussions without stereotyping. We have many, many types of discussions where people mention their clashes with other types, but few attempt to explain why it might be happening. I don't think it's necessarily wrong to do so, but perhaps we can change the title to something else so it feels less intimidating or uncomfortable - maybe separating the rants from communication efforts, perhaps.

I also have to point out the fact that making assumptions I have noticed is correlated with J behavior, though all types do it. MBTI claims this as well, sometimes decisions are made without taking in enough information.

Yep, we do it. We're pretty bad at it, but I think we can be open to change once we've made the judgment call - or at least INFJs are, in anycase. I think we're willing to think, ponder and discuss situations, and even change our minds if we need more data. Mind you, once we *have* all the data, we're pretty much set for life and nothing save the apocalypse will sway our minds.

This doesn't a P like myself won't do this, but it just isn't normal or natural for us to be making judgments that are not open to change all the time as in the experience he is having.

I would disagree here, though. It's very natural not to be open to change for a J-type once our minds are set. It's not saying it's impossible, but you have to come up with hard core evidence to persuade us otherwise. It's more than just saying, "no, you're wrong" because we won't change if we're set if someone says we're wrong. If our conclusions are incorrect, then we need new data that can help sway our minds. Brand new data that we've never seen before...and that can be tricky, if we've already analyzed ever possible resource and exhausted all the resources we know ('cause we're pretty dang thorough).

Don't you think it is possible he had a few bad experiences and is overgeneralizing just a little bit? I mean it is human nature, I have done it, I am sure you have done it, hell we all do it from time to time, it's normal.

Oh, absolutely! It's definitely possible. I think it's possible that his experiences have tainted the discussion, but I don't think he's being purposefully malicious. And that's where I'd draw the line.

The danger comes when we associate that behavior and start categorizing and boxing it up without collecting enough information to do so.

Agreed, but again I don't think that's happening in as great a level in this case. That's my opinion, though - just my personal thoughts.

(snip)

So if we have to make a stereotype in MBTI about assumptions it would be more accurate to say J=assumptions or "strong extroverted judging=assumptions". Which in my opinion is too solid of a statement, but more true than Ne-Fi=assumptions.

It's possible. But then, we might need more data, too. We might need to determine if there are more conflicts between Js and other Js, or if there are more conflicts between Ne/Ni or even Ni/Fe vs Ne/Fi. The anecdotal evidence exists, even beyond this forum. But I don't know if anyone's quite made a statistical analysis of it yet.

Anyway. Those are my (long) two cents. I'm still open to further discussions on the matters at hand, if you are.

 

[Goatman455]

First of all, no one is being purposefully malicious here, I want to get that out of the way. In no way have I ever taken anything anyone has said on this board as intentional. Also, you convey your points in a very open minded manner and I really appreciate and respect that, thank you for that.



MBTI is stereotyping yes in a certain sense of the word. However, what I meant was (and perhaps I should have taken more time to word things) was that it isn't negatively or positively stereotyping people. It isn't saying that certain functions will cause certain behaviors, it looks at the overall type. For example, INFJ acts a certain way, but it doesn't attempt to say that anyone with Ni, and Ti in their type is likely to act a certain way regardless of the functional order.

We should be open to new ideas, but we also need to be open to shooting them down as well if they don't work well.

The real thing that didn't sit well with me is that Ne-Fi=assumptions. I just think that statement is too concrete to the point of not being accurate in the least.

When Ps are forced to make Judgments then can come up with zany things, when Js are forced to let Judgments come naturally they can force a judgment and miss part of the picture. When Ss are forced to use N they can come up with nonsense, when Ns are forced to use S they can miss obvious things. Again, another generalization, but I don't think it has anything to do with specific functions, rather in society forcing us to go against our natural strengths.

"This doesn't [mean] a P like myself won't do this, but it just isn't normal or natural for us to be making judgments that are not open to change all the time as in the experience he is having. "

"I would disagree here, though. It's very natural not to be open to change for a J-type once our minds are set. It's not saying it's impossible, but you have to come up with hard core evidence to persuade us otherwise. It's more than just saying, "no, you're wrong" because we won't change if we're set if someone says we're wrong. If our conclusions are incorrect, then we need new data that can help sway our minds. Brand new data that we've never seen before...and that can be tricky, if we've already analyzed ever possible resource and exhausted all the resources we know ('cause we're pretty dang thorough)."


I think perhaps you misunderstood, I agree with you. I am saying he is accusing Ps (If you have Ne and Fi in dominant positions you are a P) of being judgmental and not being open to info, and I have to say this isn't the norm for this type.

The idea that one must produce serious evidence to change someone's perspective is why a lot of arguments happen in life. We need to be balance our Ps and Js. We need to be open to change, but we can't just take whatever everyone says and adopt it as our own. In the end, if a bunch of people are saying "hey think about it like this" and you think you already have, you should be open to the idea that you haven't. Ok that sort of made sense right? What I mean is that what one 'thinks' they have explored and what one has 'actually' explored can be completely different and probably caused a lot of the disagreements (both from myself and others) in this thread. Two people can read the same book, and get completely different ideas of what it is about for example.

"Agreed, but again I don't think that's happening in as great a level in this case. That's my opinion, though - just my personal thoughts."

I agree I don't think it is happening to a great level, but enough of one that I think it should be pointed out.


Again, I have to point out that in a strict MBTI Js are going to make more assumptions than Ps. I hate saying something so solid. On that note EJs are probably going to make the most assumptions and EPs the least.

I am a subscriber to the Yin/Yang theory. In Yin is Yang and in Yang is Yin. I think what is happening is that when Von's friends started using their less strong functions and ignoring the help from their strong ones (like how the ENFP made a judgment and just wasn't open to new info) these assumptions occur.

It can happen when a J switches their P on and doesn't check it with their J, or when an S switches their N on and doesn't check it with their S, etc.

I don't see this as an Ne-Fi issue, I see this as an issue that is prevalent across all types. I think perhaps it can be hard to see one's own biases sometimes when we are busy judging other people.

In the end I think the personal nature of some of these attacks is interfering with his judgment on why this is happening. I mean I know for me, and other people I have seen when you really feel strongly about something or when it happens with people close to you, it can definitely interfere with judgment.

Kind of like how Doctors don't operate or treat their family or friends usually.

Personally, everything that Von has felt I have felt, yet it was actually with someone who had Fe-Ni, so I really understand his frustration but I just don't see it as specific to functions, I see it as a human problem in this case. I gotta say too, like Von I am very honest and it really does make me angry too when people don't trust me. I am thinking "Man, I never lie and you don't believe me, what the hell?". In the end, I think people project themselves onto others, and since they are not as honest as Von, or have been hurt in the past by similar situations, they are skeptical of Von's intentions. It is human self survival. I think that many of the problems in the world today come from our self survival instincts and how they can get in the way of sound judgment.

Anyone I am very interested to hear anyone's thoughts on the stuff, thanks for responding and thanks for listening.

Also I want to say that I respect Von's and everyone's opinion regardless of what they feel, or I wouldn't even bother to put this much effort into this conversation.

There are so few NFs in the world and pretty much all of them I have met never intended to hurt anyone. Hell, not many people I have ever met really intend to hurt people, it just happens accidentally. That is why I think getting all this out in the open is healthy, normally, and beneficial to us all.

Thanks again.

 

[VH]

Von Hase, if you were in love with an INFP girl like I was, obviously it means that you are capable of appreciating the good qualities that INFP's have, just like I was able to appreciate my ex-girlfriend's good qualities. So I think it's not so much that you hate INFP's, just this potential pitfall that could occur.

Yes, I have very close and long term friends who are ENFPs, INFPs, and love them dearly. My mother is an ESTJ, and I love her dearly. I am not especially close to any ISTJs that I know of, but my theories here are obviously not an attempt to make some sort of all inclusive summary judgement of these types in one post. To assume so would in fact be proposterous, though may possibly be illustrating my point when people do.

I suppose as a J type, I assume that I don't have to expound upon a list of beatitudes before I address an issue that may need some attention. I assume that people won't assume. Ironic.

It's as if they (Von Hase and Honey) were saying "conflicts happen because X side has all these faults." (I'm not saying that this is what happened, I'm saying it's easy to interpret it like this because of the emotionally charged language they used.)

Yes, this is nothing more than an attempt to address an issue that frequently occurs, and search for ways to adapt and overcome it. Obviously, if I thought the four types I've mentioned were some sort of anathema, I wouldn't bother with the original post, and simply avoid them. The post is obviously written out of a desire to help me have better relationships with people I care about. Yet again, the assumptions I mentioned in the original post caused this to be in question.

Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt and pointing out to me what others may have been assuming. I am glad to find someone who can see both perspectives on this issue, which I am seeking to resolve in my own personal relationships.

The OP may be coming from a good place, but the results of these judgments are disastrous in my opinion. Also, Von Hase has also tested as an ENFJ. I have talked with him about this, as personally from reading his posts I was inclined put him in the ENFJ category. There is a big difference between an introverted ENFJ and an extroverted INFJ, huge. Now of course, far be it from me to tell anyone their type, perhaps he has since decided on INFJ, but he said himself he was having issues figuring it out so I gave my two cents. Personally I have never had big issues with INFJs, though I have had some with ENFJs. I find the xxxJ/xxxP relationship can cause some issues, but to just blanket everyone like that isn't right. There was no sense of "this is just an idea" or "I could be wrong here" it seemed like a closed belief, and in my opinion one that is harmful to himself and others. ENFJs I have noticed seem more fixed in their viewpoints when they express them. "This is how I feel and that is that" kind of mindset. INFJs like yourself arbygil, well you can see it in your wording. You are taking things slower, you are interesting in exploring the issue, etc. I don't want to hurt anyone here, but to see this kind of hypocritical statement made with only anecdotal backing evidence just isn't sitting correctly with me.

You seem to have convinced yourself that I'm an ENFJ, and you've clearly stated that you have issues with ENFJs. I'm beginning to think you're projecting hostilities you have against other ENFJs in your life against me, which is exactly what the ENFP in my original post did. She claimed (to a mutual friend) that I reminded her of her father, and proceeded to project all of her hostility toward him onto me. It appears I've become your ENFJ scapegoat, or should I say scapeGoatman?

We could argue my type, but the simple fact of the matter is that it is irrelevent to this discussion, which is about how Ni and Fe interact with Ne and Fi. Whether or not I'm an INFJ or an ENFJ has no bearing on these factors, but the fact that you keep bringing it up innapproporiately lends even more weight to your inherent hostility toward ENFJs.

I know more than a few ENFJs, and they're great, benevolent, and kind people. I wish I was more like them, but I'm not. I find it sad that you've developed such a bias against them, but it only furthers my points about how Ni aand Fe can clash with Ne and Fi, in such a way that causes the Ne and Fi types to form walls. I love my ENFP friends, despite this issue, because they have so much good to offer the world. You really need to learn how to love your ENFJs, because as an ENFP, there is no other type better suited to help you grow personally as they're designed to see in your blind spots. This thread is devoted to the resolution of some the issues between our types, and is meant to be nothing if not reconciliatory in nature.

People have the right to believe what they want to believe, but I don't think the MBTI institute for example, or the founders of MBTI would agree with the statements made in this thread.

Ah, the coalition tactic strikes again. This time, it's an attempt to garner the support of 'the experts', who unfortunately can't weigh in because they are dead. But, feel free to speak on their behalf to give merit to the notion that you have pulled them into the coalition.

So if we have to make a stereotype in MBTI about assumptions it would be more accurate to say J=assumptions or "strong extroverted judging=assumptions". Which in my opinion is too solid of a statement, but more true than Ne-Fi=assumptions.

Just to point out, it is rather clear that you've begun to stereotype ENFJs. This isn't doing you, or anyone else any good.

What I've done is point out a recurring issue, in the interest of resolving it. This isn't stereotyping. It's isolating and compartmentalizing one aspect of the interaction between two different perspectives with the goal of bettering the relationship for everyone.

Being hostile toward ENFJs, or even suspected ENFJs, because you're associating them with others who have potentially wronged you is nothing more than biggotry, especially when it is more likely that the cause of the things that have upset you are likely rooted in the very issue we are trying to address, which is again - the misunderstandings between our perspectives in cognitive thought processes.

Of course I'm going to write about this issue from my own perspective, which may be insensitive to those with the opposing perspective, because not only is it my own perspective, but the whole point to this thread is that I don't understand the opposing perspective. How it in the world would you expect me to be sensitive to something I don't understand, especially when I'm asking for help in doing so?

In many ways, over and over again, you've proven the points in my original post with many of your replies that are refuting them. Ironic, but still very helpful.

You've made a lot of constructive points over the course, so let me avoid making the mistake of assuming you won't make assumptions. My responses are specifically aimed at the issues I am addressing and nothing more. Most importantly, they do no in any way detract from the beneficial information and unique perspective you've offered, which I greatly appreciate. Thanks for them. You've done more good here than not, and I don't want you to feel that I think otherwise.

 

[acd]

This entire thread is all assumption. The assumption of others assuming. Hilarious.

 

[Goatman455]

"You seem to have convinced yourself that I'm an ENFJ"

An assumption that is incorrect.

Right in your quote of me is the real truth

"Now of course, far be it from me to tell anyone their type, perhaps he has since decided on INFJ, but he said himself he was having issues figuring it out so I gave my two cents."

I wanted to help you with your quest. If you are unsure, perhaps other people's opinions can help you decide. If you want to be INFJ, fine I am not going to argue what type you are, but do realize that we don't always see ourselves as others see us.


"Ah, the coalition tactic strikes again. This time, it's an attempt to garner the support of 'the experts', who unfortunately can't weigh in because they are dead. But, feel free to speak on their behalf to give merit to the notion that you have pulled them into the coalition."

I am not trying to do this, I am sorry if you feel ganged up on. What do you think you are doing by posting this topic though? I was merely pointing out MBTI theory states that Js may make not take in enough info for their judgments and Ps may not make judgments when they need to. This is kind of counter to what you are stating in your original idea. I was trying to give you a different perspective, if you don't want it, that's fine, I respect that and I apologize.



I am not trying to stereotype ENFJs or anyone else I was using them as a counterpoint to what you said. In my experience they have done similar things but do not share those functions. In my experience EJs are most likely to make assumptions. I thought if I had my own anecdotal evidence that was different from yours, it may cause you to question your seemingly strongly help belief in a positive manner. This is much less of a generalization than you made in your original post anyway. There are awesome things about every type and weaknesses too, I am trying to avoid us just focusing on the weaknesses.



Let's allow people to make assumptions because they are human and let's forgive them for their mistakes. Let's stop trying to figure out why each other is incorrect and start trying to figure out why we are correct.

These are things we (myself included) should all be trying because we aren't getting anywhere with our current method of communication.



"This entire thread is all assumption. The assumption of others assuming. Hilarious."

EXACTLY, HAHAHA, that is what I am trying to point out yet avoid but I am doing the same thing myself.

STOP

Monkey time:

 

[gloomy-optimist]

You guys seem to be running yourself around in circles. I believe much of this thread to be clashing subjective viewpoints.