Ni Power

And therein lies your fundamental error and source of misunderstanding. One cannot understand cognitive functions by attempting to distill their essences from MBTI. Go to the source, and read what Jung actually wrote.

From that, one can come to appreciate the history of typological theory as per Myers, Beebe, Berens, and Thompson.

You are putting the cart before the horse, and reaching some conclusions which have no merit.

Cheers,
Ian
I’ve just read up on Ti and Te in a book by Jung and I see no difference in my interpretation. Ti is theory, ideas, Te is external facts and problem solving. Ti is only called subjective because ideas and theories are formulated internally. The difference is not like subjective and objective facts. Dare I say Ti is purer because as Jung says Te may become tyrants lol, just as I said about Putin.
Maybe you need to reread Jung?
 
I’ve actually typed several people after only observing them for a short while, so I think that shows I know something about this topic. My observations of people before I knew anything about this subject have informed my understanding as I can see patterns that were apparent but not as clear as now. If I don’t understand cognitive functions, how could I do that?

By choosing to do so, simple as that. There’s no guarantee you are right. For example, if someone was using Ni, Ti, Fi, or Si, would you have any way of knowing this given they are not observable processes?

Many people say these sorts of things, particularly if their entry of interest is MBTI. And many people used to.

Cheers,
Ian
 
I’ve just read up on Ti and Te in a book by Jung and I see no difference in my interpretation. Ti is theory, ideas, Te is external facts and problem solving. Ti is only called subjective because ideas and theories are formulated internally. The difference is not like subjective and objective facts. Dare I say Ti is purer because as Jung says Te may become tyrants lol, just as I said about Putin.
Maybe you need to reread Jung?

You can say what you like.

Cheers,
Ian
 
By choosing to do so, simple as that. There’s no guarantee you are right. For example, if someone was using Ni, Ti, Fi, or Si, would you have any way of knowing this given they are not observable processes?

Yes because each type has a number of different displayed characteristics which range from eye movements to body movements and everything in between. The ability of INFJs as being best at typing people, other things being equal, is I think because we are able to observed several characteristics at once in real time using wide lens of Se in inferior position, and then analyse this using Ni to recognise a set of criteria which together indicate a certain type. No need for identification of each individual cog function in that approach. I think this might be called factorial analysis but that just came to mind and is a complete guess.
 
Just because a hammer is better at pounding nails than paper doesn't mean I have to treat it with reverence unless I really like pounding nails. And then we're back again at the root of the problem: injecting merit into something you're personally familiar with.

I see what you did here. Lol.
 
I see what you did here. Lol.
But a ‘hierarchy of value’ exists in people’s minds and is partly reflected in financial remuneration and status for different tasks. The analogy falls apart on that basis. Inherent value is not subjective, at least on an aggregate basis.
You could say actions speak louder than words, which has validity, but we don’t have to choose between these. A life spent only talking could be a wasted life or not. Depends on the context, subject etc. If INFJs are special as I and many believe, just be ‘special’ by achievement(s), which, while a good point, is not the whole story. Until INFJs discover and understand typology, they are inclined to feel generally inferior in-spite of Ni-Ti and Fe telling them they are different and have something good to offer. An appreciation of their value early on, allied to an understanding that just feeling ‘special’ is not enough (carpe diem) and actually could be a vice and lead to a wasted life, and an understanding of how to manifest their talents would be of great value.
Also, the beauty of INFJ enlightenment and achievement is often/usually that others and society in general usually benefit.
 
Hello @David Nelson, and thank you for your post. I'm glad you have shared some thoughts on Introverted Intuition, because it's a topic that can spur some very interesting ideas for discussion. Would you agree it can be a difficult function to define and describe, precisely due to the "psychic" character of it? And I hope you are open to some open-ended thoughts about this.

  • The "power" of Ni? Is Ni a "power" cognitive function? In my opinion, yes it can be, but it depends on which position in the functional stack it is in. For instance, I ask myself, why is it that ENTJs and ENFJs are always archetypal viewed as leaders, kings/queens, CEOs, mob bosses, etc, and INTJ and INFJ are often not viewed this way automatically? Ni-doms tend take on the archetypal image of "masterminds"(INTJ), "mystics"(INFJ), monks, artists, counselors? The ENTJ and ENFJ have Ni in their auxiliary position, so their personhood, who they are, is not based on Introverted Intuition. It's based on their position in an already established hierarchical system. For ENFJs, their social circles, and where they fit in those social circles, is extremely important to them and their identity. The same goes for ENTJs when they identify themselves within an ordinal structure(aka. corporate, government, military, etc. structures). Thus, ENxJs actively, consciously, wield Ni as a tool or weapon to accomplish their objectives within a defined system, which makes them very likely to make it to the "top" of these system's hierarchies. So when it comes to the question of Ni and "power", this to me, clearly shows Ni as a very powerful function. Why? Because ENxJs understand better than anyone else the power of the imagination. If you can make someone believe in something that they previously didn't believe in before, you can make them do anything. You don't need to make it, solve it, or create it all yourself, in the way an Ni-dom needs to, to prove what is possible, since, you have the backing of the system behind you, if you are an ENFJ or ENTJ. Also, imo, I think Ni by itself is a useless function(Carl Jung himself said of Ni-doms: “From an extraverted and rationalistic standpoint, these types are indeed the most useless of men.”), but it is essential. I think Ni-doms, especially, understand how much the nature of reality is shaped and formed by the individual's ability to perceive it. It is up to Ni-doms to decide what to do with this level of awareness. And as for INFJs, I think it comes from their Fe, which when coupled with Ni allows them a nearly infinite range of flexibility in terms of expression and blending.
  • As for my thoughts on Ni versus Si: I agree with @aeon and @Asa here in that there are no "superior" functions. They are all there in every individual. I highly suggest reading(and I'm giving a bit of a "shout-out") some of @Ren's blog posts on cognitive functions, as well as his excellent book The Ecstatic Soul: A New Look At The INFJ Personality for a good and in-depth look at the metaphysical nature of the INFJ personality, as well as how it differs from the ISFJ, who are a lot like INFJs but have Si in their dominant function. In my opinion, they are simply different and not at all superior/inferior. I really don't like a lot of the online comparisons of personality types with IQ-score, college degree status, and career patterns. It really boxes people in, imo, beyond what is practical, healthy, and true based in real world experience. From my experience, Si-doms, and specifically ISFJs, are very smart, saavy, and "smooth" people. A good popular example of the ISFJ personality would be the U.S. President Barrack Obama. They also have a wide range of expressive capability, in relation to INFJs. They make up about 15% - 20% of the population (which is why, from my pov, most people won't see anything particularly special about an INFJ, nor is there anything strange or different at first glance about an INFJ person, because they very easily blend in with 15 - 20% of the world's ISFJ population). Si is extremely good at paying close attention to details, hard facts, familiar objects, and particular items. ISTJs can be very "powerful". A good example would be someone like Amazon CEO's Jeff Bezos. Te is often perceived as the "power" function. However, no function has "power" alone. Fi is the best counter to Te. A good recent example of this is the current Russia/Ukraine conflict. I think of Russia's direct and forceful bombardment of Ukraine as a very Te-style form of power. You overwhelm your opponent to force them into submission. I think of "Fi" as the necessary element of war, that in order to hold your newly won territory, you must win over "hearts and minds". So even if Russia takes over the capital of Kiev, that will not stop Ukrainians from resisting the Russian power structure. All functions can be "powerful", especially if used optimally. There are because of INFJs rarity, unfortunately, not a whole lot of great modern-world examples of "powerful" INFJs, in the proverbial sense of "power". But there are examples of successful and highly influential INFJs(which are found here on the forum). They are especially influential as "Big idea" people, saints, martyrs, philosophers, model-builders, artists, humanitarians, and authors. They need the acceptance and cooperation of a social or ordinal system in order to do this, imo.
  • Have I had similar experiences[of "premonitions" I assume?]. Yes, all the time. I have seen all kinds of layers of reality, too. I won't divulge in this talk too much though. Nobody cares. It's a lot of the same stuff people make fun of and say, "it's outside of reality". Or, "what have you been smoking"? It's shit. The key is being able to use this perception for the better ends of the world, the people around you, and the systems that hold up our reality as it is in place.
A final note: On this forum, and this is just a neutral observation, I see a lot of talk about "power"; and I admit, it strikes me because I don't hear people talk about these notions very often or so directly and openly outside of the forum. But it seems very important to a lot of people who come on here for some reason. Not a bad thing - it's just something I notice. I really liked the blog post by @John K Accountability and Power, which gives a thoughtful examination on some of the aspects of seeking leadership and positions of power that don't often get talked about. All in all, all power ultimately belongs to a higher power(s) found in the universe, and I mostly see us mortals, and especially the INFJ, as a "vessel" for communicating the power of truth, faith, and love.
Liked this post. Agree with much of what you say about Ni. In dominant position it’s a challenge and a gift. In auxiliary position, as in ENTJ, it is of course often used for negative reasons via Te.
I own and have read Ren’s excellent book, The Ecstatic Soul.

wrt ISFJ and INFJ, I know what you mean about them appearing quite similar. I used to know an ISFJ very well but found them to be narrow-minded, paranoid and with an unjustified sense of passive aggression and superiority. I think this is where theory and practice in this subject differ. If we stick only to function stack theory, we can miss real world issues. This individual I knew did what many sensors do, and misinterpreted much of what I did. He didn’t have my depth of thinking. I grew to understand the big differences between us before I knew anything about types. He was nice on a personal basis but the lack of intuitive depth was an issue. He was very affiliative, so respected societal structures which INFJs often want to tear down. He was not very open. Limited interests/conversation. Politically ignorant and naive. Part of the ‘problem’ with INFJs in terms of how they are perceived is that they are a bunch of contradictions. They want to get on with people but also want to be radical when deemed necessary, so they can be pulled 2 ways. They want to help others but dislike conflict and too much social interaction. Etc. The judgement I felt from the ISFJ which stemmed from misunderstanding was pejorative, and to me represented their own understanding of how they would have behaved, so what I got was a reflection of them. As an INFJ I have always had friends who were intellectually inferior to me (note a teacher told my parents this at school). So I’ve spent most of my life intellectually lonely, as well as emotionally lonely. Try that on for size! Then have people tell you, or think you are no better than them or worse, after experiencing their bullshit judgements and small minded crap. No wonder many INFJs hide away much of the time!

I do agree that Ni is hard to pin down but my own understanding is it’s a slow process of analysis of data coming from Se. Se gives wide amount of data from inferior position (note Ni dom can only have Se inferior allied to it), which Ni slowly but at different rates analyses this for patterns, comparison with existing data and subconscious understandings. Fe and Ti are also used with Ni, which is also key in giving INFJs significant potential intellectual and cultural power. Yes, Te is more about real world power which lacks ethical elements. INFJ power is soft power.
 
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Liked this post. Agree with much of what you say about Ni. In dominant position it’s a challenge and a gift. In auxiliary position, as in ENTJ, it is of course often used for negative reasons via Te.
I own and have read Ren’s excellent book, The Ecstatic Soul.

wrt ISFJ and INFJ, I know what you mean about them appearing quite similar. I used to know an ISFJ very well but found them to be narrow-minded, paranoid and with an unjustified sense of passive aggression and superiority. I think this is where theory and practice in this subject differ. If we stick only to function stack theory, we can miss real world issues. This individual I knew did what many sensors do, and misinterpreted much of what I did. He didn’t have my depth of thinking. I grew to understand the big differences between us before I knew anything about types. He was nice on a personal basis but the lack of intuitive depth was an issue. He was very affiliation, so respected societal structures which INFJs often want to tear down. He was not very open. Limited interests/conversation. Politically ignorant and naive. Part of the ‘problem’ with INFJs in terms of how they are perceived is that they are a bunch of contradictions. They want to get on with people but also want to be radical when deemed necessary, so they can be pulled 2 ways. They want to help others but dislike conflict and too much social interaction. Etc. The judgement I felt from the ISFJ which stemmed from misunderstanding was pejorative, and to me represented their own understanding of how they would have behaved, so what I got was a reflection of them. As an INFJ I have always had friends who were intellectually inferior to me (note a teacher told my parents this at school). So I’ve spent most of my life intellectually lonely, as well as emotionally lonely. Try that on for size! Then have people tell you, or think you are no better than them or worse, after experiencing their bullshit judgements and small minded crap. No wonder many INFJs hide away much of the time!

I do agree that Ni is hard to pin down but my own understanding is it’s a slow process of analysis of data coming from Se. Se gives wide amount of data from inferior position (note Ni dom can only have Se inferior allied to it), which Ni slowly but at different rates analyses this for patterns, comparison with existing data and subconscious understandings. Fe and Ti are also used with Ni, which is also key in giving INFJs significant potential intellectual and cultural power. Yes, Te is more about real world power which lacks ethical elements. INFJ power is soft power.

Please, don't take this wrong way; I like a lot of what you are saying and understand where you are coming from.
But I want to simply put it this way, in this way: "Dude, Ni is really cool, isn't it?" It doesn't need to be "superior" to be downright awesome.
Some of my favorite people in history are Ni-doms(INFJ and INTJ alike): Jesus Christ, Andrei Rublev, Stanley Kubrick, Friedrich Nietzsche, Christopher Hitchens, etc...

A lot Ni-style works in the arts and sciences realm are pretty damn awesome and awe-inspiring! And that's just it. It's a preference. Not everybody likes this preference though. Not all Ni-based stuff is great or useful, either. But I agree with you that I really like it, and it would be nice if more people appreciated it more.

Therefore, Ni is amazing! And being Ni-dominants, blessed with this extraordinary gift, have a great responsibility to show the world how friggin' cool and useful it is. If we don't, then who will?

...ok, I'm done... ;)
 
Maybe my approach should just be more about how INFJs can achieve great things if they understand their type and make the best of it. Claiming superiority is never going to win us friends and might even cause hostility.
It’s a difficult one because I do believe so much in the type. It’s ok to claim a general greatness for mankind for example, but claiming greatest of a niche personality type which can’t be changed is always highly controversial and problematic in itself. I see so much potential in this subject to help us understand many societal false beliefs and behaviours, and nurturing talent but people have to learn about it before that can happen. It’s potentially a sociological and political problem, with the potential to sow great division as well as individual self actualisation and growth. If we taught it in schools and typed kids at an early age, should we stream them on that basis? We often stream them on ability in certain subjects or overall intelligence etc.
The difference between IQ and personality is personality is more directly related to character imo. but also has a correlation with IQ. Seems I’ve opened a can of worms, and I hate worms.
 
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I've had all sorts of strange things like what you've listed but I would put them more in the spiritual category rather than being "INFJ".

The one thing I do recall happened was when I was in a really messed up mental state, obviously INFJ's are known to operate on the "subconscious level". I was sitting next to someone and I was in a massive conflict of whether to say anything to her, I was not given the context of the situation so I didn't know if she was sitting there for reason x or reason y which were both possible. So being in this conflict of what to do I thought I would focus on my phone and kind of act like I wasn't there or didn't notice her. It was complicated because it was related to a professionalism thing, I was in conflict because I was trying to do the right thing but also didn't know if I should introduce myself. Anyway I somehow sent off maybe a "vibe" and she basically turned and looked at that exact time. I Later I found out she identifies as INFJ as well on her facebook. So yah, shit was weird af and I think she was ultra cautious of me after that. I've interacted with her since then and she is a basket case herself so yah.
 
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Some fun thoughts:
  • I actually do think there are extremely powerful INFJs out there, you would just never see them. From my experience, if you do something rather grand as an INFJ, it's usually behind the scenes or behind closed doors. People don't let you do anything without the permission of their egos.
  • There are, extremely small yet prominent, populations of INFJs in Monaco or on the Island of Ibiza, a "billionaire's playground", for example. You'll never know their names or how much money they have, or what kinds of things they do. There are INFJs planted as official spies for governments and working as systems engineers/hackers. This includes INTJs, INTPs, ENTPs and ENFPs who are actually known in these positions (a good example of a revolutionary ENFP hacker, Richard Stallman).
  • INFJs, imo, are most powerful when they are out of the limelight, actually doing stuff, and not(openly) taking any credit for it.
  • I still think @Wyote may actually be Jesse Eisenberg in disguise.
 
I actually do think there are extremely powerful INFJs out there
INFJs, imo, are most powerful when they are out of the limelight, actually doing stuff
I still think @Wyote may actually be Jesse Eisenberg in disguise.

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You've been drinking too much INFJ kool-aid. How convenient that your particular set of functions just happens to be the best at all these incredibly wide-spanning fields!

Fine, write more about how exceptional you are while living vicariously through deeds of other people. And when you start changing the world, the INTJs will be there to fix your mess as usual. :looninati:

sigh-drinking.gif
 
I don’t think any of the eight defined cognitive functions are superior to, or less than, any of the other ones.

Cheers,
Ian

I would agree. In my reading of Jung, I gather that in naming the cognitive functions, he was mapping out four generalized types of consciousness that are interdependent — all of which would ideally be equally developed in order to orient one to reality.He uses the analogy of a compass in this regard.
In my understanding, the point of “Jung’s Psychological Types” was to explore this idea of “the tension of the opposites” in the context of personality. The idea that individuation is about moving towards balancing our ability to use what ever function is most appropriate for a given task.
We’ve all heard Jung’s breakdown, from “A Theory of Psycological Types”, I think: (my paraphrase) Sensation says something exists, thinking tells us what it means, feeling tells us what it’s worth to us, and intuition tells us the possibilities and what can be done with it.
Personally, I wish more of the world could understand my internal Ni world. It’s rich in its own right and it’s where my comfort lies, but inferior Se is seriously problematic and has haunted me all my life. I have great admiration for Se/Si users.
P.S. I just reread this, and gosh, I sound like such an immature know-it all to myself but I’m gonna try to just leave it there and not obsess about a better delivery. I think I mean well and the whole topic makes me excited and alive. This is a very interesting thread.
 
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I would agree. In my reading of Jung, I gather that in naming the cognitive functions, he was mapping out four generalized types of consciousness that are interdependent — all of which would ideally be equally developed in order to orient one to reality.He uses the analogy of a compass in this regard.
In my understanding, the point of “Jung’s Psychological Types” was to explore this idea of “the tension of the opposites” in the context of personality. The idea that individuation is about moving towards balancing our ability to use what ever function is most appropriate for a given task.
We’ve all heard Jung’s breakdown, from “A Theory of Psycological Types”, I think: (my paraphrase) Sensation says something exists, thinking tells us what it means, feeling tells us what it’s worth to us, and intuition tells us the possibilities and what can be done with it.
Personally, I wish more of the world could understand my internal Ni world. It’s rich in its own right and it’s where my comfort lies, but inferior Se is seriously problematic and has haunted me all my life. I have great admiration for Se/Si users.
P.S. I just reread this, and gosh, I sound like such an immature know-it all to myself but I’m gonna try to just leave it there and not obsess about a better delivery. I think I mean well and the whole topic makes me excited and alive.
Your last paragraph shows that N functions are superior in power because they are where analysis and imagination come from. Without them, human progress would have been very limited.

Also, note that the interrelationship between perceiving and judging functions is specific and predictable. A dominant function always has its opposing function in opposite introversion/extroversion and is in inferior position. This is not just a coincidence. Dominant introverted intuition relies on a wide lens inferior Se. This allows a general input of diffuse and varied Se data/experience to give Ni the maximum amount of information to process and reach conclusions. A more powerful Se would mean more specific information and thus less disperse and varied information for Ni, and a less powerful Ni. There is beautiful symmetry to the function stacks. If function stacks could be any variation of the 8 cognitive functions then there would be a lot more than 16 personality types.
 
Your last paragraph shows that N functions are superior in power because they are where analysis and imagination come from. Without them, human progress would have been very limited.

Also, note that the interrelationship between perceiving and judging functions is specific and predictable. A dominant function always has its opposing function in opposite introversion/extroversion and is in inferior position. This is not just a coincidence. Dominant introverted intuition relies on a wide lens inferior Se. This allows a general input of diffuse and varied Se data/experience to give Ni the maximum amount of information to process and reach conclusions. A more powerful Se would mean more specific information and thus less disperse and varied information for Ni, and a less powerful Ni. There is beautiful symmetry to the function stacks. If function stacks could be any variation of the 8 cognitive functions then there would be a lot more than 16 personality types.

Hmmm, I’m gonna sit with your thoughts and marinade on your words. Your a sharp fellow. It’s nice to get to talk typology with INFJ folk. (I don’t don’t know any in real life.)…Someone with a similar sensibility…but with a different opinion, and understanding . That’s the whole, “as iron sharpens iron” thing, right? Cheers, David.
 
Had 2 very interesting recent experiences. One was a premonition of what someone was going to ask me a few seconds before they did, and I couldn’t see and didn’t know this person until I turned round.

The other was a dream last night where I was thinking about a writers work and I had a profound insight which I couldn’t completely define but I do have some grasp of. I’m hoping this comes back but these things are by their nature unpredictable. It was something to do with getting behind someone’s creativity as a way of seeing the magic and thereby surpassing it.

Both of these speak to the power of Ni imo. I was watching a YT video yesterday which purported to the idea that Ni was not superior to Si in any way. , lol. Oh dear!

I don’t think Ni doms are necessarily psychic (although it can seem that way at times) but the Ni analysis of data is a slow process which relies on Si (memory) to some degree. This process is clearly unique and powerful, allowing future predictions and greater analysis of the past rather than what Si does (uses past data to predict the present and future, hence no change or new insights).

Anyone had similar experiences?
I occasionally dream about situations which are consistent with waking reality, and it can be days or weeks later that the exact dreamt scenario and how it plays out will occur. I don't often think of it as deja vu, or some weird psychic ability. Rather, it's just a dream version of what I often do consciously and awake: anticipate how things will occur.

An example may be that I'll dream about a meeting at a consulate to apply for a visa. All the possible requirements, questions, and procedural hiccups almost instantly run through my intuition in an instant. But if I end up dreaming about it, a LOT more brain activity must go into it, pulling details together which I wouldn't consciously consider, such as the appearance of consulate workers (glanced over distractedly in a web page). The result is that I'll dream about a meeting, and later, showing up, I'll remember the dream, and will know the people's names without having to be introduced, and I'll present required information anticipating their questions. I must admit, at times I have to suppress my enjoyment at how this can freak others out.
 
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