Not allowed to build minarets anymore

That's half of 50 million. You implied that at least half of Muslims murder.

So 2% of European Muslims? That still sounds awfully high. Check out this map of intentional homicide rates per country (darker means more, lighter means fewer):

Homicide-world2.png


Europe looks pretty good, doesn't it? That's an average of 5.4 murders per 100,000 residents. The population of Europe is about 831.4 million. So about 44,896 murders occur each year.
Let's be generous to your theory and say that the average Muslim who murders only does so once, let's say in a 50-year life span. That averages out to 20,000 murders per year, almost half of the total.
To recap: You're saying that about 6% of the population of Europe (Muslim immigrants) commits almost half of the continent's murders each year. Ever wonder why you seem to be the only one aware of this?

Not sure where you are going with all your cute charts and graphs on international murder rates etc, but what does it have to do with Muslim preteliction for violence? And I meant 1 million radical Muslims in Europe, not world wide. World wide the number would be much higher maybe 10-15%
 
Not sure where you are going with all your cute charts and graphs on international murder rates etc, but what does it have to do with Muslim preteliction for violence? And I meant 1 million radical Muslims in Europe, not world wide. World wide the number would be much higher maybe 10-15%
Is this your way of saying "too long, did not read"?
 
Please site the source of your numbers Billy
 
Billy, to quote from the link you sent titled:

Pakistani Christians: Will Saudis allow construction of cathedrals to challenge Swiss ban on minarets?

Robert:- While the world waxes indignant over the Swiss minaret ban, it is useful to put things into perspective. In Egypt, Christians are persecuted. In Pakistan, construction of new churches is severely restricted. In Saudi Arabia, it isn't allowed at all (end)

Firstly, it is unfair to compare these Muslim countries to Europe as their history is complicated by colonialism, poverty, American invasion (as with Pakistan) and support of unpopular dictators (in Egypt, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia).

Secondly, a proper comparison will reveal otherwise. In Italy, the Archbishop of Bologna has called for the closure of the country’s mosques and an end to immigration by Muslims, who are, he believes, ‘outside our humanity.’ In [Kamchatka], at the furthest end of European settlement, the Orthodox bishop has backed opposition to the construction of a mosque for the region’s large Muslim community. The mosque would be ‘a direct insult to the religious and civil feelings of the Slavic population,’ according its local opponents, and would encourage further Muslim immigration, with the result that ‘given their mind-set, they won’t let us live normally here.’ Other examples:
Berlusconi's allies demand ban on building new mosques,
Church of England leader seeks to ban building mosques.

While Europe is moving in this direction, Saudi Arabia is hoping to accomodate its Christian citizens and lift the ban on building churches (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/18/religion.saudiarabia).

Who are persecuted more in recent decades: the Christians of the Middle East, particularly Egypt, or the Muslims of Europe? There is certainly civil unrest in Egypt and elsewhere, but never has there been a systematic givernment sponsored attack, as the Bosnian Muslims suffered in 1992-95 when a million Bosnians were expelled from their homes and hundreds of thousands of them killed, and all under a religious premise with a narrative created not unlike that of Spencer's. Michael Sells wrote "The violence in Bosnia was a religious genocide in several senses: the people destroyed were chosen on the basis of their religious identity; those carrying out the killings acted with the blessing and support of Christian church leaders; the violence was grounded in a religious mythology that characterized the targeted people as race traitors and the extermination of them as a sacred act; and the perpetrators of the violence were protected by a policy designed by the policy makers of a Western world that is culturally dominated by Christianity". For a useful analysis on rightwing Islamophobia in Europe, see: http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/right.htm

In Britain, an innocent Muslim, Muhammad Abdul Kahar was shot three years ago and an intense smear campaign was used against him thereafter. Many Muslims throughout the world are arrested on false charges, only later shown to be false. Muslim graveyards have been attacked - just recently in Manchester. Just this year a woman in Germany, Marwa Sherbini, was killed in a court because of anti-Muslim hatred. The Danish newspaper that printed those cartoons of Muhammad refused to print cartoons disparaging Jesus and depicting holocaust denial - this is a systematic demonisation and persecution of Muslims within the mainstream.

As Robert says, we should put things in proper perspective. And when this perspective is given, Europe has much more to account for.
 
No its my way of asking you what the relevance of your straw man argument was. Sorry I should have clarified.


Billy I think you know what he is trying to say.

Read it again, slowly, and use the pictures to help you!

This is the advice I give many of my ELEMENTARY students
 
You know what I mean. Billy- I think that you are a smart man. It takes a really smart man to admit when someone has a point.
Im sorry what was your point? That not all Muslims commit violence? yes I already admitted as such a dozens times in thie very thread. I am not concerned with moderate Muslims I am concerned with the violent ones who seem to be a bigger problem then most people are willing to admit. I can easily agree that they are not the majority, but they aren't a little drop in the bucket either. Can you admit to that?
 
Billy I think you know what he is trying to say.

Read it again, slowly, and use the pictures to help you!

This is the advice I give many of my ELEMENTARY students

That you are teaching children anything terrifies me.:mhula: OH SNAP!
 
Im sorry what was your point? That not all Muslims commit violence? yes I already admitted as such a dozens times in thie very thread. I am not concerned with moderate Muslims I am concerned with the violent ones who seem to be a bigger problem then most people are willing to admit. I can easily agree that they are not the majority, but they aren't a little drop in the bucket either. Can you admit to that?


I actually will look into it. I really will I want to see if I can find estimates from credible sources before I make a judgement. I am not being snarky when I say that. I want to research it.
 
I actually will look into it. I really will I want to see if I can find estimates from credible sources before I make a judgement. I am not being snarky when I say that. I want to research it.

Excellent.
 
That you are teaching children anything terrifies me.:mhula: OH SNAP!

I have to sigh at this. I am glad you feel better. Seeing that you obviously have a small.......ego makes me sad that your have to resort to such insults.
 
No its my way of asking you what the relevance of your straw man argument was. Sorry I should have clarified.

Do tell how my argument was a straw man. Your earlier "correction" regarding the numbers made it clear that you did not grasp what my post was talking about, and since my explanation was pretty straightforward, I can only assume that you did not read it carefully, if at all.

I simply analyzed what your statement would mean statistically, if true. Try reading it again.
 
I have to sigh at this. I am glad you feel better. Seeing that you obviously have a small.......ego makes me sad that your have to resort to such insults.

Wait I was being playful, you basically told me I was stupid and to look at the pretty pictures... so I was giving it back to you. Sorry I didnt know you were going to get serious.:m142:
 
What I still see many people arguing against Islam is that they are crazy fanatics, well you all seem to be ignoring that Islam does not support this fanatics, think about if random people from your religion started doing this, would you blame the whole religion? No, but people can be so judgmental that they would think so, a lot of you are being very judgmental in the sense that this does not apply to Islam at all, it's more of a problem with a specific group, hell I would not even considered them Muslim since they are clearly going against their religion so don't go attacking all Muslims in general just because a group of individuals decided to go ''crazy'', that would make you as close-minded and judgemental as those individuals.
 
Do tell how my argument was a straw man. Your earlier "correction" regarding the numbers made it clear that you did not grasp what my post was talking about, and since my explanation was pretty straightforward, I can only assume that you did not read it carefully, if at all.

I simply analyzed what your statement would mean statistically, if true. Try reading it again.

Well you implied a lot of my argument for me and then started blurting something out about crime statistics and numbers and then using math formulas, I wasn't really trying to imply that Muslims cause 50% of all the murders in Europe. But hey man, keep that calculator rolling.
 
I guess you could also convict local Indians for racism because they tried to resist the overtake from European immigrants hundreds of years ago.
Right...
The genocide of nearly an entire civilization and the rampant theft of their land...
Vs.
Legal immigration.

Very comparable. -_-
 
Well you implied a lot of my argument for me and then started blurting something out about crime statistics and numbers and then using math formulas, I wasn't really trying to imply that Muslims cause 50% of all the murders in Europe. But hey man, keep that calculator rolling.
I get it if you simply didn't realize how extreme your figure of 1 million in Europe was. All I did was translate that number into more accessible terms to expose its ludicrousness, and you seem to understand now that 50% of the total murder rate is too high. But why all this beating around the bush? Why do you keep saying that I used a straw man or "implied a lot" of your argument? An honest retraction would suffice.
 
I get it if you simply didn't realize how extreme your figure of 1 million in Europe was. All I did was translate that number into more accessible terms to expose its ludicrousness, and you seem to understand now that 50% of the total murder rate is too high. But why all this beating around the bush? Why do you keep saying that I used a straw man or "implied a lot" of your argument? An honest retraction would suffice.

Yes you also assumed that when I said muslim violence I meant murder. Why not look up rape, beatings, riots, and vandalism while you are at it too.
 
Yes you also assumed that when I said muslim violence I meant murder.

No, I did not. Anyone who cares to read the earlier posts will see that you unambiguously stated that "closer to 1 million" European Muslims kill people. You're ruining your credibility here.

Why not look up rape, beatings, riots, and vandalism while you are at it too.
I did not look those up because you were not making estimates regarding those crimes. If you want to make a case for oppression of Muslims based on higher rates of rape, beating, rioting and vandalism, then go ahead.
 
Remember the Patriot Act that stripped away American Rights?
It passed with only a few peaceful protests.

Whenever the European Governments try to pass unapproved legislation there is violent rioting in the streets. I asked a 70 year old European (Scotsman, well travelled throughout Europe) I used to work for why that was, and he said it was because mainland Europe can still remember the stifling oppression of the NAZI Party, and would never again allow their governments to become as Right Wing Authoritarian again, or to allow Religious Oppression (towards the religions or from the religions*). The Eastern European nations can very much remember the USSR Stranglehold and R.W.Authoritarianism that prevailed there, and Doug (Scottish Fellow) had been there during the USSR time, and after it. Most of the citizenry there (in the 90's) REALLY didn't and still don't want that sort of crap again.

Europe has lived through some of the most brutal Oppression in the last Century, and as a result most of the older generation have really dug in there heels there, and passed it on as a culture (I believe) to the youth.

Whereas America hasn't known enough oppression to fight for their rights (argue peacefully in indignant lassitude), only a few really do, and they're called Militia Extremists who're generally cast in a conspiracy theorist light and seem to be rather racist and ultra-nationalist.

That's what this has to do with it.



*It is from the religions that concerns Europe at the moment.

**Feel free to dispute any of that forum members from Europe, either France, Germany, Netherlands Region, Eastern Europe or Scandanavia...**


I realise you're making a joke, and I can see the amusing side of it... However I think you've touched on the truth. Fuck Connecticut.

interesting and makes sense.
 
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