Obama v Romney 1st debate - who won ?

[gd65h8as7]

First off, there can't be a serious discussion about health care in the United States without acknowledging that the for-profit health care system IS the problem.

As for the wars in the Middle East: I can understand not wanting to go there. But think again about costs. The hit on the Twin Towers cost us one trillion in one day. This was the price of the two towers and the consequent loss of aviation passengers over the first six months (no one wanted to fly). Plus there was a perceived sense that we were vulnerable. Bush hit back and crippled the Taliban and crippled Saddam Hussein, both of whom were exporting terror. It's hard to understand why it was necessary to introduce wide reforms throughout Iraq and Afghanistan while not going into Iran itself. But the entire Islamic world is now going through a huge movement toward democracy. We can't exterminate Islam. There are almost 2 billion Muslims. All we can do is introduce pluralistic societies in which women have a stake and in which other religions have equal rights

I brought this up before, I know there are people who think I'm a kook for saying this but I swear I'm not, i'll try to make a thread about this soon....but the Muslims did not do 9/11. 9/11 was a false flag stand down; the same way Pearl Harbor was. If you go on the FAA website, you'll find out that even if you're a private pilot flying a small plane, if you're off course and not responding to anyone, you "will likely find two F-18's on [your] tail within 10 or so minutes." It makes no sense that 19 men with box cutters were able to hijack four planes at the same time, and fly 4 enormous, civilian jumbo jets through the most restricted airspace in the world unimpeded. Flight 77 hit the Pentagon a full hour after the two towers were hit. Building 7, a 47 story tall building, collapsed completely, at free fall speed, without being hit by anything. And it wasn't even mentioned in the 9/11 Commission Report. 9/11 was a stand down operation with total government complicity. The planes were flown by remote, and the buildings were rigged with explosives.

[video=youtube;Zv7BImVvEyk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv7BImVvEyk[/video]

Try to stay open to alternative news sources. Try to stay open to Romney and the Republicans. I realize most of you won't do this, and you will believe what is most convenient. That's normal

Lol, I'm actually all ears and trying to understand where you're coming from. But even if you read The American Conservative, probably the best and most intelligent Conservative publication in the US, even they can't get themselves to get behind Romney; go on the website he's getting killed over there. And they hate Obama. I don't blame them either.

 

[Billy]

This spreads the wealth

Wait a second, I thought that spreading the wealth was EVIILLLLL!!! And against "god".

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

-Romney wants to make higher education less affordable for average citizens. He has no problems with letting student loan interest rates skyrocket-- as far as I can tell, the point is to help the rich profit from the middle class, while also letting all of the bankrupt young people serve as a warning for the commoners to not try to get into these exclusive white collar clubs anymore-- or at the very least not to try to get ridiculous useless degrees in arts or anything that won't lead to a high-paying job which will of course exist in his amazing society. So yeah, I guess you'd better hope that his plan to make life easier for the rich actually does lead to the creation of blue collar jobs and they don't just spend all of the money on private jets, factories abroad (but not in China, of course), or robots.

Won't higher interest rates make education more affordable??? The reason nobody can afford it now is because interest rates are too low and so it creates a system where virtually everyone needs to take out debt to graduate. Supply and demand dictates that when interest rates increase, price will have to come down because people won't be as willing to take out debt.

Put it this way. Imagine you own a donut shop and the government is handing out cheap loans for donuts. If you are a true capitalist, you will exploit this opportunity and increase the cost of donuts because you know the government in which you operate is handing out cheap/free money for donuts. Eventually people aren't able to buy donuts with their own cash like they used to because the price is too high. At one point they all wanted cheap loans but now they need cheap loans because the cheap loans have inflated the price of donuts. The same exact dependency has been created with our bureaucratic educational system.

I hate Romney too btw. Just wanted to show peeps the other side of the story.

 

[this is only temporary]

Won't higher interest rates make education more affordable??? The reason nobody can afford it now is because interest rates are too low and so it creates a system where virtually everyone needs to take out debt to graduate. Supply and demand dictates that when interest rates increase, price will have to come down because people won't be as willing to take out debt.

This is a concern of mine as well. It is a legitimate concern, and has many similarities to the real estate bubble. In short, easy credit and government stimulus increases demand and drives up prices, and that is what has been happening with higher education.

Not that I want anyone to be either forced into exorbitant debt or priced out of the opportunity for higher education, I certainly don't. But throwing easy credit at something is not necessarily the best solution, IMO. There really have to be other, better ideas, it should not be an A or B choice.

 

[Apone]

Won't higher interest rates make education more affordable??? The reason nobody can afford it now is because interest rates are too low and so it creates a system where virtually everyone needs to take out debt to graduate. Supply and demand dictates that when interest rates increase, price will have to come down because people won't be as willing to take out debt.

Put it this way. Imagine you own a donut shop and the government is handing out cheap loans for donuts. If you are a true capitalist, you will exploit this opportunity and increase the cost of donuts because you know the government in which you operate is handing out cheap/free money for donuts. Eventually people aren't able to buy donuts with their own cash like they used to because the price is too high. At one point they all wanted cheap loans but now they need cheap loans because the cheap loans have inflated the price of donuts. The same exact dependency has been created with our bureaucratic educational system.

I hate Romney too btw. Just wanted to show peeps the other side of the story.

You definitely know more about it than I do, but I've never seen tuition rates go down. Have they ever gone down in the past? They've doubled in the past 20 years… AND enrollments have gone way way up.

But it seems to me that people who are serious are always willing to pay more for what they perceive to be a decent education, and then there are people who simply think that having 'a degree' is enough. So genuine education will probably continue to become more expensive whereas certain types of education might become cheaper-- or more likely, you'll see more frivolous/part time programs opening up everywhere. The admissions standards will lower, along with the quality of education provided… so yeah, basically I can see a two-tier system of real and fake education, with the fake eventually being so devalued that it's basically just a scam… not that we aren't already there anyways.

But what I really want to know is what happens to the people who have just graduated with loads of debt and few prospects when the interest rates go up, and how do we prevent another crash when the rates go up? I really can't imagine people rushing to pay off their debts… it seems to me that most people right now are taking out more loans. They really do have to step in and stop this-- immediately. But I don't think that just raising the interest rates and watching everything come crashing down is the right way to do it.

I don't know, maybe it is an unavoidable catastrophe. Maybe keeping them low is doing more harm than good, and the best way to deal with everything is to just let the economy die and then bounce back… I don't have any debts so I'll be relatively fine-- well, until I lose my job to cutbacks.

 

[problemz]

It's not clear to me why folks don't think a war in Iran would be a good thing. Did you remember how they shot down the young woman in the streets of Tehran while our fearless leader said nothing? You would think that at least the feminists would stand up. But no, nothing. The problem is Romney. Consider this article today about a 9th grade girl who was shot for dissing the Taliban. Are human rights only for us? Should it be only we few who can have an education while the rest of the world remains in abominable ignorance? What is the price of this ignorance? It's not clear to me how idealists (or so-called idealists) can not care, and turn away from such images, without wanting to do something except get subsidies for their communist brainwashes at such and such State U. Those educations are no longer worth anything in spite of their high cost. It's a fashion that died in the 1930s in the trenches outside of Barcelona when the Stalinists ganged up on the anarchists and decimated them, leaving the left to be in turn gutted by Franco. So many problemz, but I suppose we always want to focus in on our own. This was the exact way the Democrats thought when the Republicans under Lincoln said we're going south. Even today, Democrats say it was not to free the slaves, as if the Battle Hymn of the Republicans had never been written, or sung. It is now a world-wide liberalism that we must foster. It's almost very important, you communist Big Bird Lovers!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...715632-1214-11e2-9a39-1f5a7f6fe945_story.html

 

[Billy]

It's not clear to me why folks don't think a war in Iran would be a good thing. Did you remember how they shot down the young woman in the streets of Tehran while our fearless leader said nothing? You would think that at least the feminists would stand up. But no, nothing. The problem is Romney. Consider this article today about a 9th grade girl who was shot for dissing the Taliban. Are human rights only for us? Should it be only we few who can have an education while the rest of the world remains in abominable ignorance? What is the price of this ignorance? It's not clear to me how idealists (or so-called idealists) can not care, and turn away from such images, without wanting to do something except get subsidies for their communist brainwashes at such and such State U. Those educations are no longer worth anything in spite of their high cost. It's a fashion that died in the 1930s in the trenches outside of Barcelona when the Stalinists ganged up on the anarchists and decimated them, leaving the left to be in turn gutted by Franco. So many problemz, but I suppose we always want to focus in on our own. This was the exact way the Democrats thought when the Republicans under Lincoln said we're going south. Even today, Democrats say it was not to free the slaves, as if the Battle Hymn of the Republicans had never been written, or sung. It is now a world-wide liberalism that we must foster. It's almost very important, you communist Big Bird Lovers!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...715632-1214-11e2-9a39-1f5a7f6fe945_story.html

OK sure, just make sure you and your children are on the front lines of the invasion forces... yeah fat chance of that happening.

 

[rawr]

Not on the topic of the debates directly, but somewhat relevant.

The more I learn of the two candidates, the less i want to vote for either of them. And i don't not want to vote, that'd be a neglect of civil and political responsibilities, IMO. Due to the vicious cycle of the predominately two-party system, it seems like a waste to vote for a 3rd party candidate (i know, a lot of people say that.) And i know which platform/issues i side with, so i guess i'll just have to vote in regards for platform, regardless of how little i care for their candidate or how the party has acted.

 

[problemz]

My children and I would also not be policemen. It takes great bravery to be on the front lines. I'm a theorist.

At any rate, 75% of the country thought Romney won the debate and only 22% thought Obama won.

Obama stunk the whole place up and now the election is slipping out of his reach. It switched 15% of the vote so far, and is likely to continue for another week until Obama gets another chance to be told he's a liar and a loop-de-loop tri-plane left over from the era of post-colonial Marxism.

Romney has the goods.

I wonder if Obama really does know anything at all. What if he's just an empty suit with no business sense, and no sense of anything except how to speak in terms of generalities?

Wouldn't that be irritating?

FORWARD!

I admit I kind of enjoy teasing. It's wrong, but I really do enjoy it.

That said, I really do think that Obama will turn this thing around and the final result will be close and might come down to a handful of votes in Ohio.

 

[MindYourHead]

I don't know why, but this thread keeps bringing up this little bit from Holy Grail in my mind.
Maybe it's because our political process sometimes seems equally absurd.
If nothing else, it's good for a laugh.

Could the media be considered the Lady of the Lake in today's world? There are many that claim the media subtly champion one candidate over another and affect the outcome.

King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. That is why I am your king.

Dennis the Peasant: Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

Arthur: Be quiet!

Dennis the Peasant: You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!

 

[James]

I just read through this thread from start to finish, as perhaps foolishly I wanted only to see how people thought the debate went, when I started it. I'm from the UK but I think the outcome will have a big effect on the world, the UK especially.

I honestly think on the night Romney impressed people and won. Obama maybe a great orator but he seemed somewhat lost. In the UK I think Obama is widely respected, whilst Romney is largely unknown.

Personally whatever his faults, I thought Obamas best moment was near the end when he finally seemed to relax and turned to face the camera, before promising to do his best for America and the middle classes. On a bad night I thought it was his best moment.

Whatever else happens, I hope having read some comments republicans and democrats will try to overcome some of their differences. Whoever wins.

PS the blueberries need to be shared with the UK. We only have five terrestrial TV channels here, and we need the help...

 

[Azazel]

I don't even live in the U.S.A. but this thread is so interesting to read!

 

[Cherokee]

Not on the topic of the debates directly, but somewhat relevant.

The more I learn of the two candidates, the less i want to vote for either of them. And i don't not want to vote, that'd be a neglect of civil and political responsibilities, IMO. Due to the vicious cycle of the predominately two-party system, it seems like a waste to vote for a 3rd party candidate (i know, a lot of people say that.) And i know which platform/issues i side with, so i guess i'll just have to vote in regards for platform, regardless of how little i care for their candidate or how the party has acted.

It is not a wast to vote for a third party candidate. This is a self fulfilling prophesy; because people think it's imposable for them to win, they don't vote for third party candidates thereby making it imposable for them to win. The more people who break out of this mindset the closer we can get to real change.

I can see that you are disgusted with both major partys. I suggest that you vote with your conscience. If all of us vote with our conscience then things can indeed change.

I personally like Jill Stein, but you should do research and vote for who you prefer.
There will be a third party debate October 23rd at freeandequal.org if you are interested.

 

[James]

.

 

[MindYourHead]

It is not a wast to vote for a third party candidate. This is a self fulfilling prophesy; because people think it's imposable for them to win, they don't vote for third party candidates thereby making it imposable for them to win. The more people who break out of this mindset the closer we can get to real change.

I can see that you are disgusted with both major partys. I suggest that you vote with your conscience. If all of us vote with our conscience then things can indeed change.

Exactly the argument I make to those that have said I threw my vote away, or my vote took a vote away from so & so, and enabled the wrong person to win. (Meaning the person they didn't want to win)
As long as I vote in line with my conscience and beliefs, I sleep well at night.

 

[gd65h8as7]

It's not clear to me why folks don't think a war in Iran would be a good thing. Did you remember how they shot down the young woman in the streets of Tehran while our fearless leader said nothing? You would think that at least the feminists would stand up. But no, nothing. The problem is Romney. Consider this article today about a 9th grade girl who was shot for dissing the Taliban. Are human rights only for us? Should it be only we few who can have an education while the rest of the world remains in abominable ignorance? What is the price of this ignorance? It's not clear to me how idealists (or so-called idealists) can not care, and turn away from such images, without wanting to do something except get subsidies for their communist brainwashes at such and such State U. Those educations are no longer worth anything in spite of their high cost. It's a fashion that died in the 1930s in the trenches outside of Barcelona when the Stalinists ganged up on the anarchists and decimated them, leaving the left to be in turn gutted by Franco. So many problemz, but I suppose we always want to focus in on our own. This was the exact way the Democrats thought when the Republicans under Lincoln said we're going south. Even today, Democrats say it was not to free the slaves, as if the Battle Hymn of the Republicans had never been written, or sung. It is now a world-wide liberalism that we must foster. It's almost very important, you communist Big Bird Lovers!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...715632-1214-11e2-9a39-1f5a7f6fe945_story.html

*sigh*

The US and Israel spazzing out and wanting to attack Iran has nothing to do with a nuclear weapon. Pakistan has nukes, their government is less stable than Iran's but there's no fuss being made about that at all. What the real issue is is that if Iran develops nuclear energy, they won't have to use their own oil. Iran is loaded with oil, so if they start selling it out on the open market, they'll make enough to develop into a first world nation and have greater influence throughout the Middle East. You see the conflicts going on in Syria right now? The conflict started a little after a 10 billion dollar pipeline deal through Iran, Iraq and Syria was signed.

[MENTION=4235]problemz[/MENTION], lol, it's crazy man you're like stuck in your own little bubble, we're all trying to explain to you that the people behind Romney and Obama are the roots behind the biggest problems in our country, and you keep bringing it back to your disgust of the Democrats. Like I said before, The American Conservative is the most intelligent, rational conservative publication in this country and not even they are in support of Romney. You're missing the big picture. You had mentioned us being "indoctrinated" and needing to read "alternative media sources" but it looks like you're the one eating up all of the mainstream propaganda.

 

[rawr]

It is not a wast to vote for a third party candidate. This is a self fulfilling prophesy; because people think it's imposable for them to win, they don't vote for third party candidates thereby making it imposable for them to win. The more people who break out of this mindset the closer we can get to real change.

I can see that you are disgusted with both major partys. I suggest that you vote with your conscience. If all of us vote with our conscience then things can indeed change.

I personally like Jill Stein, but you should do research and vote for who you prefer.
There will be a third party debate October 23rd at freeandequal.org if you are interested.

thanks for the response. I know it's not a literal waste, but Duverger's Law is what i was referring to.

 

[the]

Not on the topic of the debates directly, but somewhat relevant.

The more I learn of the two candidates, the less i want to vote for either of them. And i don't not want to vote, that'd be a neglect of civil and political responsibilities, IMO. Due to the vicious cycle of the predominately two-party system, it seems like a waste to vote for a 3rd party candidate (i know, a lot of people say that.) And i know which platform/issues i side with, so i guess i'll just have to vote in regards for platform, regardless of how little i care for their candidate or how the party has acted.

You are whats broken with the system.

 

[the]

Won't higher interest rates make education more affordable??? The reason nobody can afford it now is because interest rates are too low and so it creates a system where virtually everyone needs to take out debt to graduate. Supply and demand dictates that when interest rates increase, price will have to come down because people won't be as willing to take out debt.

Put it this way. Imagine you own a donut shop and the government is handing out cheap loans for donuts. If you are a true capitalist, you will exploit this opportunity and increase the cost of donuts because you know the government in which you operate is handing out cheap/free money for donuts. Eventually people aren't able to buy donuts with their own cash like they used to because the price is too high. At one point they all wanted cheap loans but now they need cheap loans because the cheap loans have inflated the price of donuts. The same exact dependency has been created with our bureaucratic educational system.

I hate Romney too btw. Just wanted to show peeps the other side of the story.

None of this would really matter if we learned anything useful in high school.

 

[rawr]

You are whats broken with the system.

Duverger's law
The principle that in a democracy with single-member districts and plurality voting, like the US, only two parties' candidates will have a realistic chance of winning political office

it's a thing. It's a natural tendency due to our political setup and plenty of people besides myself.