Offensive, racist or an example of political correctness gone overboard?

[bronson_]

HAHAHAHA. No, it's not racist. Even having to ask this question is the height of PC stupidity. Seriously.

 

[arbygil]

Aye, here's the rub:

Many statements are not racist - but they can become so, if a smattering of people begin using the phrases incorrectly. "Pot calling the kettle black" isn't racist, until some nice young fellow decides to make a "joke" by pointing to an African American out of context, and calling them the kettle without using any specific reference. Once a phrase is used to harm another person, and word gets out about the harm, then it can be difficult to use those phrases in their correct context without causing offense.

Some phrases are obvious racial slurs, however, and they're meant to cause offense. Other phrases were never meant to cause offense but because some fun person decided to use it in order to cause offense, the semantics of the phrase now has more than one meaning depending on who you talk to about it. And really, those who weren't harmed by the phrase won't take offense to it - while those who were, will.

Personally, I don't find that much offense in "pot calling the kettle black" because I still can reference "black" as a color. But because "black" can also mean a racial group, it can be difficult to use idioms with the word "black" in them because it will, inevitably, cause someone to be upset (mostly becaue the idiom had probably been misused in their circles).

 

[Faye]

Anyway, are you offended if someone uses the idiom "the pot calling the kettle black?"
I'll be honest: I actually don't understand what this means. It does not make sense to me.

Do you think that it's origin it's racist? Okay, I looked it up. I don't know whether or not the origin is racist when it comes to the Indian versus Native American distinction. My problem is that whenever anyone says Indian, I think India. For practical purposes, I need people to say native American or American Indian, but I don't really see a problem calling native Americans 'Indians'. My reasoning is that it is racist in a way against people from India- like, "oh, we're so sorry for mistaking the native Americans for people from India hundreds of years ago back when Columbus thought he was close to the island of Japan (and he died thinking so as well)" as if people from India are so bad.

Or is my concern about this an example of political correctness gone overboard?

Okay, I have another admission. Not only did I not know what "the pot calling the kettle black" meant, but I had been consistently misreading it as "the pot calling the kettle back".

I think political correctness can have a racist motivation if it assumes (as it sometimes does) that the group in question is inferior in some way and provides that as the sole motivation for not using certain terms of phrases to supposedly hurt their feelings. By trying to not single them out, it singles them out in a way, and also in doing so goes against history.

I feel like "African American" is a good example. Why aren't all white people also then "European American"? Why aren't people consistent? Do black people need to be constantly reminded that they are from Africa, and then maybe they need to identify with Africa somehow and become involved in back to Africa movements and celebrate Kwanzaa? By the way, I love Kwanzaa food and hope it continues (just because I like the food), but I don't think that black Americans (whose families have been in the country for over 100 years) are anymore African than white Americans are European. It is just stupid.

 

[arbygil]

I think political correctness can have a racist motivation if it assumes (as it sometimes does) that the group in question is inferior in some way and provides that as the sole motivation for not using certain terms of phrases to supposedly hurt their feelings. By trying to not single them out, it singles them out in a way, and also in doing so goes against history.

I feel like "African American" is a good example. Why aren't all white people also then "European American"? Why aren't people consistent? Do black people need to be constantly reminded that they are from Africa, and then maybe they need to identify with Africa somehow and become involved in back to Africa movements and celebrate Kwanzaa? By the way, I love Kwanzaa food and hope it continues (just because I like the food), but I don't think that black Americans (whose families have been in the country for over 100 years) are anymore African than white Americans are European. It is just stupid.

There are reasons that go far beyond what you're thinking, [MENTION=834]Dragon[/MENTION], but no worries. Wikipedia to the rescue.

The term African American carries important political overtones. Earlier terms used to identify Americans of African ancestry were conferred upon the group by colonists and Americans of European ancestry. The terms were included in the wording of various laws and legal decisions which some thought were being used as tools of white supremacy and oppression.[146] There developed among blacks in America a growing desire for a term of self-identification of their own choosing.

With the political consciousness that emerged from the political and social ferment of the late 1960s and early 1970s, blacks no longer approved of the term Negro. They believed it had suggestions of a moderate, accommodationist, even "Uncle Tom" connotation. In this period, a growing number of blacks in the United States, particularly African American youth, celebrated their blackness and their historical and cultural ties with the African continent. The Black Power movement defiantly embraced Black as a group identifier. It was a term social leaders themselves had repudiated only two decades earlier, but they proclaimed, "Black is beautiful".

In this same period, a smaller number of people favored Afro-American, a common shortening (as is 'Anglo-American'). However, after the decline in popularity of the 'Afro' hairstyle in the late 1970s, the term fell out of use.[citation needed]

In the 1980s the term African American was advanced on the model of, for example, German-American or Irish-American to give descendents of American slaves and other American blacks who lived through the slavery-era a heritage and a cultural base.[146] The term was popularized in black communities around the country via word of mouth and ultimately received mainstream use after Jesse Jackson publicly used the term in front of a national audience. Subsequently, major media outlets adopted its use.[146]

Many blacks in America expressed a preference for the term, as it was formed in the same way as names for others of the many ethnic groups in the nation. Some argued further that, because of the historical circumstances surrounding the capture, enslavement and systematic attempts to de-Africanize blacks in the United States under chattel slavery, most African Americans are unable to trace their ancestry to a specific African nation; hence, the entire continent serves as a geographic marker.

For many, African American is more than a name expressive of cultural and historical roots. The term expresses pride in Africa and a sense of kinship and solidarity with others of the African diaspora

 

[DrShephard]

Psssst... I use coarse language in this response. Cover your child's eyes if you think that words will damage their minds.

Quite honestly, I get sooooo tired of political correctness, so I'm more apt to deliberately break it with hyperbole either for or against it in order to express my own disapproval of it... but that's probably on a subconscious level. As such, I've started slipping in phrases like "That's like the jew calling the black inferior" and "let's just sit native-american style" into conversations. I just get tickled pink whenever I get to use them, because the people who rail against phrases like "That's like the pot calling the kettle black" and people who get married or have kids and start to say "Oh fudge!" are just absurd. It's even seeped into my own family! My dear mother has gotten my dad to start replacing his profanity with "Shoot!" and "Fudge!", but if I'm around them and he says anything like that I'm apt to say "Did you mean 'shit'?" or just shake my head and say "Fudge? Really? If you're going to say it, just say it. Jesus cunt-fucking christ!" or an emphasized "Gee willikers! Gosh darn it!"

Self-censorship is, much of the time, self-denial, and it has become the virtue of our time. That's not what life's about. Flush it down the drain. Kill it with fire!

 

[Faye]

There are reasons that go far beyond what you're thinking, @Dragon, but no worries. Wikipedia to the rescue.

[MENTION=442]arbygil[/MENTION] I'm personally afraid to refer to blacks, at least of my generation, as African Americans precisely because it carries this kind of baggage with it. Some hate it, and in part that is because it can feel intellectually condescending. Like, every time you bring up the topic of race, you have to tie the person in to the separate historical circumstance.

I only use the term African American in formal settings (i.e. sociology class with the highly political correct conscious professors) or with older people, especially educated ones. In my experience, African Americans/blacks are more segregated physically and/or intellectually in the Northeast U.S. and especially the South than where I am from in the Southwest. I think in part some people do not like the term because it places the political burden on them and also they might feel like it distances them from the people they are with. Others might feel like the struggle to get away from the label 'negro' and have pride etc etc does not apply to them or just isn't relevant enough to them. At my high school, you would see whites/blacks/others dating and not think anything of it (I haven't until now), not to mention being friends. I also know people who have refused college scholarships specifically for 'African Americans' because they weren't comfortable being given the money just because of their skin color. But then when I went to the northeast for college, I noticed right away that non-whites tended to be clustered into their own little groups oftentimes. I've met some people with very racist attitudes, or at least who have parents with vary racist attitudes (I've even met a few who are virtually Hitler sympathizers).

Another example is the term 'Hispanic'. Here, a lot of people will take offense to being called Hispanic. They will only take Latino or their specific group name (Mexican, Cuban, Puerto Rican, etc.). In the Northeast, Hispanic seems to be an accepted politically correct term.


The entire business frustrates me to no end. Obviously, I don't want to offend people, but race/ethnicity is socially constructed and changes according to geographic region, and I do view certain areas of the country as more racist than others and am biased against them. Race doesn't typically play much on my mind, and even when I was in Africa I never really thought much about the fact that I was the only white person around while the other people in the program said they were always hyper-conscious of it. I know that some areas (i.e. Chicago schools) are trying to voluntarily re-segregate in a way, and that there are serious issues surrounding and pertaining to ethnicity, but regardless I don't see a way that I can be politically correct about any of this because the truth is that people aren't as united by their skin color as a lot of people like to believe.

 

[arbygil]

[MENTION=834]Dragon[/MENTION] (and others who may be thinking the same thing): It is tough if you're not of a particular culture to "name" that culture and use the correct terminology. All I can tell you is the newscasters try to get it right and you can use them for clues.

Seriously though, sometimes it's okay to just ask. Me, I'm okay with either African-American or Black. My best friend is okay with Hispanic, but I recognize that some folks who are more sensitive may prefer Latino/Latina or Chicano/Chicana. But I discovered this by having a friend who explained it to me, and I was able to find out some information for myself.

I say this to anyone: If you're concerned about offending someone, then have a relationship with someone who won't care if you ask them questions about their culture or heritage. They'll tell you.

 

[MindYourHead]

I think it boils down to the context in which a phrase is used.

Can you imagine a show like All in the Family making it on television today? I know that show was on before many of you were around, but the main character Archie Bunker threw racial slurs around left and right.
None of it was meant to be hurtful, or taken seriously.
"You dumb Polack" was used time and again when he spoke to his son in law.
Today the network would be over run by protests and boycotts of sponsor's products.

Along the way I feel we have lost some of the ability to laugh at ourselves, and shrug off such comments.

 

[VH]

Political correctness has coddled the indignation of anyone who feels offended so long that we actually encourage people to be offended and look for excuses to be offended, because the end result is emotional validation. When people want emotional validation (and in a lot of cases they actually do need it), the current way to 'earn it' is to get offended and make a fuss. Suddenly they're surrounded by apologizers and respectful attitudes. The desired effect and the end result match up, but the process is almost entirely bass akwards and encourages emotional hypocondriacs to ruin it for everyone.

 

[Lerxst]

It comes from a translation of Don Quixote (early 17th century), although it was supposedly around long before that. William Penn, I believe used it as well in Colonial times, around the same era.

I really doubt there are any underlying racial intentions.

 

[Absch]

American political correctness is incredible. We call Indians Indians in my native tongue, not sure if there even is a more politically correct term.

Spoiler

u mad?

 

[barbad0s]

I don't really see why people need to be offended by mere ignorance or lack of knowledge or experience. People can be educated and all is well, no problem. So long as there isn't actual hateful intent, then there shouldnt be such a big deal made all the time.

People need to grow some balls eventually, or the rest of their lives are going to be tough for them.

NSFW

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhQk61zvQ2c&fmt=18"]YouTube - ‪Chinese Guy and Black Man Eat Fried Chicken‬‏[/ame]

 

[Absch]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcsLcH9wgGk"]YouTube - ‪Rucka Rucka Ali: I love minorites‬‏[/ame]

 

[DrShephard]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTmIaUxtpYo"]YouTube - ‪wonder showzen- celebrate our differences‬‏[/ame]

'cause it's beautiful when the whole world sings together in harmony.

 

[VH]

So long as there isn't actual hateful intent, then there shouldnt be such a big deal made all the time.

The problem here is that the less educated someone is, the more qualified they tend to feel themselves to be on judging whether or not someone else has hateful intent.

 

[barbad0s]

The problem here is that the less educated someone is, the more qualified they tend to feel themselves to be on judging whether or not someone else has hateful intent.

Can you give an example? I don't think you need to be very smart to be able to tell whether or not someone is trying to be an a**hole.

 

[Kmal]

[MENTION=3998]niffer[/MENTION] It could be an excuse, or lack of a bigger perspective. My observation is that more successful black people don't tend to be offended (as much) as poor, lower class black people with the dreaded n-word, or with anything to do with racism. Though, it could be directly related to self worth and not material gain (but then, those are pretty closely related).

 

[barbad0s]

It's okay, poor people are easy to ignore~

No seriously though, there are way more factors that influence the way people react to these things.

In the example you mentioned [MENTION=2259]Kmal[/MENTION] , perhaps those people were successful in the first place because they learned to suck it up and not draw attention around it.

 

[Kmal]

It's okay, poor people are easy to ignore~

No seriously though, there are way more factors that influence the way people react to these things.

In the example you mentioned [MENTION=2259]Kmal[/MENTION] , perhaps those people were successful in the first place because they learned to suck it up and not draw attention around it.

Sure, lets hear them.

So these people thought it wasn't worth fighting for? Or rather, what they could gain by not fighting > what they were fighting for? what does that imply?

 

[VH]

Can you give an example? I don't think you need to be very smart to be able to tell whether or not someone is trying to be an a**hole.

Apparently, you do or else we wouldn't have the story about the two ladies on the plane. I'm pretty sure they assumed the stewardess was trying to be an a**hole. Otherwise, they wouldn't have gotten upset.

I once was at a movie theater. This dude wouldn't stop talking on his cell phone, so I told him to shut up. After the movie, he confronted me and accused me of being racist. Clearly, in a dark theater, I am able to discern the race of someone I can't even see. He was pissed off that I called him out, and couldn't come up with anything better than the race card to justify himself. When he realized I was standing there with my (at the time) Mexican girlfriend and our mutual buddy who is black (and has one of the most brilliant scientific minds I know), he suddenly had no leg to stand on. I proceded to explain to him that I don't care who you are, it's impolite to ruin the movie for everyone else who paid to see it.

In the current American political correctness climate, it is FAR more likely that someone accuses someone of being racist when it's not even close. The majority of the people who falsely accuse racism are doing so out of ignorance. The minority of people who falsely accuse racism are doing so for deliberate advantage. Both groups are making it less and less likely that anyone is going to take accusations of real racism seriously.

Worst of all, we've gotten to the point that we can't address the differences in cultural expectations and the distinctions between individuals without treading on the dangerous ground of racism. There are a lot of black people in America. I live in a city that is more than 75% black. There are MANY different cultures that black people are a part of. There are black people who are part of the yuppie crowd, the power broking business set, the church crowd, the geeks and nerds, the academic community, and so on. Yet for some reason, the subculture of ghetto black people that defies education and joining the rest of American society seems to be treated with some manner of protected status - and worst of all, an insult against anyone from this group of people (even if it's true) is considered an offense against all members. This is not only ridiculous, it's offensive to all the other black people who aren't ghetto.

Personally, I've been fed up with the concept of race for decades. There is no such thing, nor if there was would anyone be only one race. At best there are cultures that center around predominant ethnicity, but there is no genetic predisposition for cultural expectations. You either choose to be part of one or you don't. You either choose to behave like other members of a culture or you don't. Who you are as an individual is ENTIRELY up to you - right down to your choice to overcome obstacles, not some Foerer effect concept of 'race'.

/endrant