Organized Religion gave birth to Civilization

I don't think dogma is the problem, not in the sense of coming to a basic agreement on something (based on combined life experience) as a community. Sometimes this is needed, fair and good. The problem comes in when dogma is isolated or extracted from it's surroundings and complimentary ideas, narrowing and even distorting the initial concept to a point where it bears little resemblance to anything of holistic value. What is even worse is when this distortion calcifies and is commonly accepted....then there is double trouble.

Rigid, unintegrated, black and white, intolerant thinking is the real nemisis, if there is one....and I'm afraid this brand of dogma comes in many, many flavors.
 
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randomsomeone said:
I don't think dogma is the problem, not in the sense of coming to a basic agreement on something (based on combined life experience) as a community. Sometimes this is needed, fair and good. The problem comes in when dogma is isolated or extracted from it's surroundings and complimentary ideas, narrowing and even distorting the initial concept to a point where it bears little resemblance to anything of holistic value. What is even worse is when this distortion calcifies and is commonly accepted....then there is double trouble.

Rigid, unintegrated, black and white, intolerant thinking is the real nemisis, if there is one....and I'm afraid this brand of dogma comes in many, many flavors.
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Many flavors, but often in the form of religion. Thats the vanilla flavor of it.
 
This is interesting, but civilization still could not have been sustained and grown without pasturing and farming, and people must have had religion before then even. The question is whether religion served as the impetus to begin farming or farming and the resultant population boom served as the impetus to have the religion.
 
Billy said:
Many flavors, but often in the form of religion.
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Perhaps due to long-term history, but most dogmas (based on the definitions I am familiar with and my own experience) are in themselves harmless and are to be understood purely in a context...one part of a whole. Some seem to use the word with such derision that it becomes a convenient scapegoat to blame for all manner of evil.....and such assumptions historically lead to outcomes far worse than any common community understanding.
 
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Dragon said:
The question is whether religion served as the impetus to begin farming or farming and the resultant population boom served as the impetus to have the religion.
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A related question would be if hunters/gatherers (before farming) were capable of actually having a common religious concept (if not a system) in the first place. I think this is very possible, even plausible, although surely such systems evolved over time as populations shifted. To me the article cited is not that big a stretch, but of course archeology is constantly evolving and upending traditionally held views, which were also based on the best conjecture available based on existing evidence. There are always suprises out there.

Is religion so hated all of a sudden that it shocks us that it could form a basic for primative civilization? That view seems unwarranted and unreasonable.
 
Rigid, unintegrated, black and white, intolerant thinking is the real nemisis, if there is one....and I'm afraid this brand of dogma comes in many, many flavors.
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And another flavor would be the militant brand of atheism that seeks to rid the world of religion.
 
randomsomeone said:
Perhaps due to long-term history, but most dogmas (based on the definitions I am familiar with and my own experience) are in themselves harmless and are to be understood purely in a context...one part of a whole. Some seem to use the word with such derision that it becomes a convenient scapegoat to blame for all manner of evil.....and such assumptions historically lead to outcomes far worse than any common community understanding.
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In your experience? Do you mean the time when mankind has mostly relegated religion to the back burner? I assure you, had you been born a couple 100 years ago things wouldn't be so contextual, people simply died because of religion. Still do, just not as fervently because saner people have replaced religious belief with more of an agnostic flavor.
 
Religion is a form of communication; it can be a binding agent for civilization, but is not the bound product itself. Usually, the properties that give birth to something must develop and remain present or death will ensue ("community", in this case); therefore, I must say 'no' because we are communally bound by survival and continuity first, everything else second. Faith is rather useless if its creators are exterminated, hm? Religion is just one structure for us to unify ourselves with. Religion and civilization can be mutually exclusive, it just hasn't happened yet.

Note: I am not denying the positive and negative influences religion has had on humanity, merely that it is not required for civilization. Read Nietzsche's works for more info.

Edit: Sorry for the redundancy of my post, I fail at articulating concisely.
 
Billy said:
In your experience? Do you mean the time when mankind has mostly relegated religion to the back burner?
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Yes, my experience with dogma is that there is a rightful place for this and it serves a rightful purpose in a well-rounded community context. It is not a scary thing. Religion, understood and lived as it is meant to be, provides a vital benefit to humanity. Even religion strongly warns against abuse that can creep in, and differentiates between that which is authentic and that which is not.
 
randomsomeone said:
Yes, my experience with dogma is that there is a rightful place for this and it serves a rightful purpose in a well-rounded community context. It is not a scary thing. Religion, understood and lived as it is meant to be, provides a vital benefit to humanity. Even religion strongly warns against abuse that can creep in, and differentiates between that which is authentic and that which is not.
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Of course it warns against that... it just doesnt follow what it says. Because the flaw is human and fundamentally we are incapable of being selfless and pure, so religion as a concept is just as wicked, a wolf in sheep clothing as it were.
 
Billy said:
Of course it warns against that... it just doesnt follow what it says. Because the flaw is human and fundamentally we are incapable of being selfless and pure, so religion as a concept is just as wicked, a wolf in sheep clothing as it were.
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Well, I suppose this would mean disregarding any and all good that has comes from religion, or people guided by religion. This is overlooking a lot...too much, in fact, for my taste. If the trend of today is away from religion, I certainly hope this type of myopia is not at it's root, although I suspect it is.

That said, I am not worried that religion (done well, that is) will vanish some day.....it is tied to our very consciousness, to our very humanity, to our deepest yearnings and needs in ways we scarcely fathom. If we are to progress at all, we will have to retain the best of what religion has to offer and cherish it. If we discard it and cast it away, we will be doomed to be a race of adolescents forever.
 
randomsomeone said:
Well, I suppose this would mean disregarding any and all good that has comes from religion, or people guided by religion. This is overlooking a lot...too much, in fact, for my taste. If the trend of today is away from religion, I certainly hope this type of myopia is not at it's root, although I suspect it is.

That said, I am not worried that religion (done well, that is) will vanish some day.....it is tied to our very consciousness, to our very humanity, to our deepest yearnings and needs in ways we scarcely fathom. If we are to progress at all, we will have to retain the best of what religion has to offer and cherish it. If we discard it and cast it away, we will be doomed to be a race of adolescents forever.
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You give far too much credit to religion and not nearly enough to human evolution. Religion is a security blanket we invented for ourselves to make things feel better. I know it seems like the blanket is where all the good comes from, but its really just a poor reflection of where things do actually come from. A world without religion doesn't mean it will be a world of sadness and hatred, any more then the world was shattered when we learned that Santa wasn't real... we kind of just shrug our shoulders and go on with it. I feel thats where we are headed, as we progress we need religion less and less and it begins to become more ceremonial and more about heritage then anything else but even then that will ultimately fade away as we begin to think more as a species and less as clusters of race/religion/groups. As the world shrinks the human family gets smarter, and the smarter we get the less we need false pretenses to stave off our fears of the unknown.
 
Billy said:
As the world shrinks the human family gets smarter, and the smarter we get the less we need false pretenses to stave off our fears of the unknown.
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I suppose that is a fair assessment based on your own perspective and experience. Mine is just different, that's all.
 
bickelz said:
How many people have been killed in the name of atheism? That's right, none.
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Just because you do not need something at this point in time does not mean it didn't play an essential part in shaping civilization. If you are an atheist right now it's only because you have found other means to satiate your God complex, not because you have found the ultimate answer to all human peril. This is an incredibly narrow minded view to take. For all we know, atheism might do people more harm in the long-term; you have gone with it because it is simply the best option for you at this moment. Regardless, if it does threaten to break people apart, it will be eventually be discarded for a more evolved worldview, possibly integrating God into its conception, or become another religious entity look-a-like.
 
You know Billy, I know many atheists. In fact I've been close friends with one for almost 20 years now. Being an atheist doesn't mean you have to bash religion. In fact, I know atheists who are religious Jews. It's not your atheism that I'm concerned about. It's your hostility. Talk about a one man inquisition. Now you don't have to converse with me. But if you want me to listen and respond, you have to be NICE. Your choice.

I'm not really expecting you to change. I'm just giving you explanation and fair warning before I write you off. Basically....
I don't want to play in your yard
If you won't be good to me
 
GracieRuth said:
You know Billy, I know many atheists. In fact I've been close friends with one for almost 20 years now. Being an atheist doesn't mean you have to bash religion. In fact, I know atheists who are religious Jews. It's not your atheism that I'm concerned about. It's your hostility. Talk about a one man inquisition. Now you don't have to converse with me. But if you want me to listen and respond, you have to be NICE. Your choice.

I'm not really expecting you to change. I'm just giving you explanation and fair warning before I write you off. Basically....
I don't want to play in your yard
If you won't be good to me
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You came into my yard, you brought up old threads, heated threads on religion and thought you were going to tell us/me how it is... you found out you were wrong. Now You are talking to me about hostility when you came in head patting... I dont get it, do you want to be friends? I dont plan on having you listen to me. I doubt you ever would, but when I see unabashed religious tripe being spewed, well... I need to make sure it gets its due and proper.

I am not even militant as far as atheism goes, I dont want to erase god from our currency or any of that silly stuff, when I see short sightedness though I do feel the need to address it. Devout religious belief in my opinion teeters on the same odiferous nonsense as "4 more years 4 MORE YEARS" from either partys pugnacious fools. I find religion to be very distasteful, to pretend we have even the slightest inkling of what any supreme being thinks/wants is a joke. Therein lies the foolhardy nature of religion and all of its pathetic guesswork. Then the discourse is removed in the name of "Faith" how disingenuous. Believe what we tell you, live how we tell you, or you go to hell! Wheres our proof? uhh well thats uhh hmm... well we dont apply proof because thats the test ya see.... haha yes good one, thats the test, you have to have faith! Only through faith and blind observance of our dominance will you be saved...

Talk about walking through the valley of steel, right to the chopping block.
 
randomsomeone said:
I suppose that is a fair assessment based on your own perspective and experience. Mine is just different, that's all.
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Not really based on my experience... based on human experience. Where once they used to sacrifice humans to appease a gods blood lust, or stone people to death for offending god they have given way to holding signs about god hating "queers and homosexuals" and harassing young women at abortion clinics... All because society has become far more secular. Thats because as we evolve we dont need those pretenses and behavior modifying decrees from some spaghetti monster. Although we have yet to stamp out all religious nonsense and killing in the name of the some muslims (most of whom live in a regressed stone age like culture) still see fit to murder infidels, then again who can blame them, the same infidels have been murdering their people for centuries only instead of using a rusty knife to Nick Berg them up real nice we send predator drones and attack subs with Tomahawk cruise missiles.
 
Billy said:
You came into my yard, you brought up old threads, heated threads on religion and thought you were going to tell us/me how it is... you found out you were wrong. Now You are talking to me about hostility when you came in head patting... I dont get it, do you want to be friends? I dont plan on having you listen to me. I doubt you ever would, but when I see unabashed religious tripe being spewed, well... I need to make sure it gets its due and proper.

I am not even militant as far as atheism goes, I dont want to erase god from our currency or any of that silly stuff, when I see short sightedness though I do feel the need to address it. Devout religious belief in my opinion teeters on the same odiferous nonsense as "4 more years 4 MORE YEARS" from either partys pugnacious fools. I find religion to be very distasteful, to pretend we have even the slightest inkling of what any supreme being thinks/wants is a joke. Therein lies the foolhardy nature of religion and all of its pathetic guesswork. Then the discourse is removed in the name of "Faith" how disingenuous. Believe what we tell you, live how we tell you, or you go to hell! Wheres our proof? uhh well thats uhh hmm... well we dont apply proof because thats the test ya see.... haha yes good one, thats the test, you have to have faith! Only through faith and blind observance of our dominance will you be saved...

Talk about walking through the valley of steel, right to the chopping block.
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Quit being an internet tough guy.
 
We tend to imagine today that religion is tengential to life (for many of us it is) but for those who understand it, it is immensely practical and relates greatly to our everyday actions and interactions in this world. In fact, in a very early culture, the idea that religion becomes infused into many aspects of tribal life seems quite natural....in fact, echos of this can still be seen today. That very organic, community-based religious thought (not about control, but about wholeness, completeness, connection) would extend beyond the individual tribal hunter/gatherer culture to become an early civilization seems reasonable. Either way, I look forward to further research.
 
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