Original Sin--Born with the sin nature...

wonkavision said:
So let me get this straight.....

The OP asks the question, "How do you feel about Original Sin?" And no one is supposed to say, "I believe in it. And here's what the Bible says about it...." --- That's wrong.

Please tell me what the point is of having a thread about religious topics if it is forbidden to have a dogmatic opinion about it?

Or better yet, please consider posting your response here: https://www.infjs.com/threads/dogmatism-in-religious-discourse.34452/
Click to expand...

@wonkavision

I would love to hear your opinion. please state it for the record
 
@Emanuel Goldstein

This was my original post on this thread, that got people so riled up:

"I believe in Original Sin. What the Bible declares about sin is borne out every day.

First of all, what the Bible calls "sin" is not what most people -- even most so called professing "Christians -- believe it to be. Sin is any deviation from 100% obedience to God.

God created all things, and so he is the rightful owner of all things. He told the first man, Adam, that he could eat from all of the trees of the Garden, except for one tree. He said that in the day that he ate from that tree he would surely die. And when Adam disobeyed, he died spiritually. That is, he came under the judgment of God, and lost his ability to choose to do good.

His whole entire nature, his will, his faculties, -- everything about him fell into sin, so that he could no longer choose that which is good, but could only choose evil, all the time. And his sinful nature was passed on to his descendants, so that all of us are born in bondage to sin. And the only way out is if God works a miracle, by his Spirit, and puts a "new heart" in us.

Now, all of the effects of sin are observed all the time in this world: from little "white lies" to senseless violence, adultery, murder, ---you name it--- that's all a part of our fallen nature. And God is not to blame! It's US who are guilty! Even if we don't commit certain sins in the world, we commit them all the time, in our thoughts, and in our "hearts," where no one except God can see them.

And so, even as through one man, ---that first man, Adam --- the world was condemned, even so, through Christ, who is called "the Second Adam," all those who were appointed by God to salvation must and shall be saved! Christ came to this world to pay the sin-debt in full for his chosen people -- not those who chose him--but those who were appointed by God to salvation, and given to Christ, before he made the world!
Christ lay down his life as an atonement for sin, shedding his own blood to pay the ransom price for the sins of his people. And God accepted him, and his sacrifice, on behalf of all those he came to save.

Now, if you don't believe that, it's because you have no spiritual life in you. No one will believe it, and rest their hopes upon it, and trust Jesus Christ, unless and until God opens their "eyes". The Bible declares that "the natural man" --- the man, in his fallen nature -- can not understand anything spiritual, nor does he desire to understand the truth, because it condemns him!

Most so-called professing "Christians" believe that they're going to heaven because they made a "choice" to believe on Christ and be saved. But the fact is, they could not have chosen Christ by their own will!
Their will is in bondage to sin, and only God can give sinners the faith to believe on Christ! So, those who have truly been saved understand and confess that their salvation is of the Lord! It's not in a decision that they made themselves, as an act of their own so-called "free will", but it is the result of God's sovereign will being performed in them by God the Holy Spirit."
 
Emanuel Goldstein said:
@wonkavision

... but I just got here That and you haven't directly replied to my posts WRT your counter argument / comment... soOOOoo can ya? Or if you prefer you can continue your thumb war with @Skarekrow
Click to expand...

Not unless you can handle a dogmatic response.

Besides, I'm getting tired of hearing Skarekrow's fits.

I know he'll butt in and start crying again, so if you really want to discuss things, PM me.
 
wonkavision said:
@Emanuel Goldstein

This was my original post on this thread, that got people so riled up:

"I believe in Original Sin. What the Bible declares about sin is borne out every day.

First of all, what the Bible calls "sin" is not what most people -- even most so called professing "Christians -- believe it to be. Sin is any deviation from 100% obedience to God.

God created all things, and so he is the rightful owner of all things. He told the first man, Adam, that he could eat from all of the trees of the Garden, except for one tree. He said that in the day that he ate from that tree he would surely die. And when Adam disobeyed, he died spiritually. That is, he came under the judgment of God, and lost his ability to choose to do good.

His whole entire nature, his will, his faculties, -- everything about him fell into sin, so that he could no longer choose that which is good, but could only choose evil, all the time. And his sinful nature was passed on to his descendants, so that all of us are born in bondage to sin. And the only way out is if God works a miracle, by his Spirit, and puts a "new heart" in us.

Now, all of the effects of sin are observed all the time in this world: from little "white lies" to senseless violence, adultery, murder, ---you name it--- that's all a part of our fallen nature. And God is not to blame! It's US who are guilty! Even if we don't commit certain sins in the world, we commit them all the time, in our thoughts, and in our "hearts," where no one except God can see them.

And so, even as through one man, ---that first man, Adam --- the world was condemned, even so, through Christ, who is called "the Second Adam," all those who were appointed by God to salvation must and shall be saved! Christ came to this world to pay the sin-debt in full for his chosen people -- not those who chose him--but those who were appointed by God to salvation, and given to Christ, before he made the world!
Christ lay down his life as an atonement for sin, shedding his own blood to pay the ransom price for the sins of his people. And God accepted him, and his sacrifice, on behalf of all those he came to save.

Now, if you don't believe that, it's because you have no spiritual life in you. No one will believe it, and rest their hopes upon it, and trust Jesus Christ, unless and until God opens their "eyes". The Bible declares that "the natural man" --- the man, in his fallen nature -- can not understand anything spiritual, nor does he desire to understand the truth, because it condemns him!

Most so-called professing "Christians" believe that they're going to heaven because they made a "choice" to believe on Christ and be saved. But the fact is, they could not have chosen Christ by their own will!
Their will is in bondage to sin, and only God can give sinners the faith to believe on Christ! So, those who have truly been saved understand and confess that their salvation is of the Lord! It's not in a decision that they made themselves, as an act of their own so-called "free will", but it is the result of God's sovereign will being performed in them by God the Holy Spirit."
Click to expand...

@wonkavision

Cool I like it... so this your way, I get it, but it seems to me your not looking for debate or for our opinions based on this line:

"Now, if you don't believe that, it's because you have no spiritual life in you"

So, anything we say, contrary to what to what you have stated, is categorical false because we have "no spiritual life" as stated in your opening statement? Would that be an accurate assessment?

So, I'm going to ask a question that does not conflict with your opening statement because I do not "entirely" agree with the above statement, therefore "I have no spiritual life" hence I can only logically ask one question...

How do you follow your path? What can I do to get a life... er spiritual life?
 
wonkavision said:
Not unless you can handle a dogmatic response.

Besides, I'm getting tired of hearing Skarekrow's fits.

I know he'll butt in and start crying again, so if you really want to discuss things, PM me.
Click to expand...

I can totally handle a dogmatic response and I'll do my best to work within the parameters you set.
 
Emanuel Goldstein said:
@wonkavision

Cool I like it... so this your way, I get it, but it seems to me your not looking for debate or for our opinions based on this line:

"Now, if you don't believe that, it's because you have no spiritual life in you"

So, anything we say, contrary to what to what you have stated, is categorical false because we have "no spiritual life" as stated in your opening statement? Would that be an accurate assessment?

So, I'm going to ask a question that does not conflict with your opening statement because I do not "entirely" agree with the above statement, therefore "I have no spiritual life" hence I can only logically ask one question...

How do you follow your path? What can I do to get a life... er spiritual life?
Click to expand...


This is not my opinion. 1 Cor 2:14 says:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

And the Lord Jesus Christ said this as well, in John 3:3-8:

3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."



Only God can reveal the truth to a sinner, and cause him to "see" what he would not otherwise be able to see in his natural state. And God does that under the preaching of the gospel. (1 Cor 1:21; Rom 10:9-17)

The gospel is how Christ died for the sins of a particular people, according to the Scriptures. And how he was buried for three days and rose again, and ascended to heaven, according to the Scriptures. (1 Cor 15:3)

That is, according to what all of the prophets in the Old Testament said he would do. He fulfilled all of that which was written of him, and he saved his people from all of their sins. (Is 53; Matt 1:21!)

Christ came to this world, not to make salvation possible, but to actually accomplish salvation for those who were given to him by his Father before the world was. (John 10:1-30; John 17:9) And that's what he did!

He actually bore the sins of his people in his own body on that cursed tree. And he shed his own blood to make an atonement for all of their sins, and God accepted it! (Gal 3:13; 2 Cor 5:21; 1 Pet 3:18; Heb 9:12, ....etc)

And all those for whom Christ shed his blood and died, will not be left in their natural state, but will be raised from spiritual death to life, by the power of God, under the preaching of the gospel.

The Apostle Paul said, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." -- Rom 1:16

It is under the preaching of the gospel of Christ, that God sends his Spirit to enlighten the minds of his chosen people, and makes them to know, that they are, in fact, the children of God! (Rom 8:15-16)

And God could have chosen whatever means he pleased to do that, but he chose the instrument of preaching. And it is only by God-given faith in Christ that any sinner can be saved. (1 Tim 2:5; Rom 5:19-26)

This is why its so crucial to preach this gospel. The eternal souls of countless people will either go to hell for eternity or be reconciled to God through faith in Christ.

That is my concern, and that's why I do this. I don't earn any points with God for doing it. My whole salvation was accomplished by Christ. I only do this out of gratitude.

Well, there's a lot more to say, but I'll wait for your response.

Hopefully, Skarekrow won't rain on this parade. (I won't hold my breath.)

In any case, I pray that the Lord may be pleased to give you saving faith. :)
 
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wonkavision said:
This is not my opinion. 1 Cor 2:14 says:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

And the Lord Jesus Christ said this as well, in John 3:3-8:

3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."



Only God can reveal the truth to a sinner, and cause him to "see" what he would not otherwise be able to see in his natural state. And God does that under the preaching of the gospel. (1 Cor 1:21; Rom 10:9-17)

The gospel is how Christ died for the sins of a particular people, according to the Scriptures. And how he was buried for three days and rose again, and ascended to heaven, according to the Scriptures. (1 Cor 15:3)

That is, according to what all of the prophets in the Old Testament said he would do. He fulfilled all of that which was written of him, and he saved his people from all of their sins. (Is 53; Matt 1:21!)

Christ came to this world, not to make salvation possible, but to actually accomplish salvation for those who were given to him by his Father before the world was. (John 10:1-30; John 17:9) And that's what he did!

He actually bore the sins of his people in his own body on that cursed tree. And he shed his own blood to make an atonement for all of their sins, and God accepted it! (Gal 3:13; 2 Cor 5:21; 1 Pet 3:18; Heb 9:12, ....etc)

And all those for whom Christ shed his blood and died, will not be left in their natural state, but will be raised from spiritual death to life, by the power of God, under the preaching of the gospel.

The Apostle Paul said, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." -- Rom 1:16

It is under the preaching of the gospel of Christ, that God sends his Spirit to enlighten the minds of his chosen people, and makes them to know, that they are, in fact, the children of God! (Rom 8:15-16)

And God could have chosen whatever means he pleased to do that, but he chose the instrument of preaching. And it is only by God-given faith in Christ that any sinner can be saved. (1 Tim 2:5; Rom 5:19-26)

This is why its so crucial to preach this gospel. The eternal souls of countless people will either go to hell for eternity or be reconciled to God through faith in Christ.

That is my concern, and that's why I do this. I don't earn any points with God for doing it. My whole salvation was accomplished by Christ. I only do this out of gratitude.

Well, there's a lot more to say, but I'll wait for your response.

Hopefully, Skarekrow won't rain on this parade. (I won't hold my breath.)

In any case, I pray that the Lord may be pleased to give you saving faith. :)
Click to expand...

Actually... we think the same way... but our concern is that your preaching is coming from a hardline church view rather then from your own heart. can we limit quotes to one at a time so we can give attention to each one? I'm using a tablet.

We (and I mean that loosely) think that if your interpretation of the above passages are wrong, Then our take is that your eternal soul is at risk and we don't want that... we want you to live.

I have personally vowed to become a Nazerite like Jesus and Samuel before him. So, please don't discount my voice out of hand because your soul might depend on it. Also, there are a couple of people here I think may have a direct line to God.

I think its safe to assume that we can agree that revelations states that only 144,000 people will be with Christ in the end times, that being said a big part of the church (probably any and all churches) will not be saved. Hence, it is likely that a more unconventional way of thinking will prevail over traditional church doctrine.

It's only by knowing God through Christ (or Christos which is the original translation of the bible) Mind, body and soul by following the way, the truth (which is gained by wisdom) and the life (which means being born again into heaven of spirit not of body).

Further, it is rumoured that church itself is the beast as established in the bible by 666, this can be evidenced by the numbered of priests involvement with children.

as you said more to discuss, but I await your response
 
wonkavision said:
This is not my opinion. 1 Cor 2:14 says:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

And the Lord Jesus Christ said this as well, in John 3:3-8:

3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."



Only God can reveal the truth to a sinner, and cause him to "see" what he would not otherwise be able to see in his natural state. And God does that under the preaching of the gospel. (1 Cor 1:21; Rom 10:9-17)

The gospel is how Christ died for the sins of a particular people, according to the Scriptures. And how he was buried for three days and rose again, and ascended to heaven, according to the Scriptures. (1 Cor 15:3)

That is, according to what all of the prophets in the Old Testament said he would do. He fulfilled all of that which was written of him, and he saved his people from all of their sins. (Is 53; Matt 1:21!)

Christ came to this world, not to make salvation possible, but to actually accomplish salvation for those who were given to him by his Father before the world was. (John 10:1-30; John 17:9) And that's what he did!

He actually bore the sins of his people in his own body on that cursed tree. And he shed his own blood to make an atonement for all of their sins, and God accepted it! (Gal 3:13; 2 Cor 5:21; 1 Pet 3:18; Heb 9:12, ....etc)

And all those for whom Christ shed his blood and died, will not be left in their natural state, but will be raised from spiritual death to life, by the power of God, under the preaching of the gospel.

The Apostle Paul said, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." -- Rom 1:16

It is under the preaching of the gospel of Christ, that God sends his Spirit to enlighten the minds of his chosen people, and makes them to know, that they are, in fact, the children of God! (Rom 8:15-16)

And God could have chosen whatever means he pleased to do that, but he chose the instrument of preaching. And it is only by God-given faith in Christ that any sinner can be saved. (1 Tim 2:5; Rom 5:19-26)

This is why its so crucial to preach this gospel. The eternal souls of countless people will either go to hell for eternity or be reconciled to God through faith in Christ.

That is my concern, and that's why I do this. I don't earn any points with God for doing it. My whole salvation was accomplished by Christ. I only do this out of gratitude.

Well, there's a lot more to say, but I'll wait for your response.

Hopefully, Skarekrow won't rain on this parade. (I won't hold my breath.)

In any case, I pray that the Lord may be pleased to give you saving faith. :)
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure @Skarekrow will be civil at least for the time being...
 
Emanuel Goldstein said:
Actually... we think the same way... but our concern is that your preaching is coming from a hardline church view rather then from your own heart. can we limit quotes to one at a time so we can give attention to each one? I'm using a tablet.

We (and I mean that loosely) think that if your interpretation of the above passages are wrong, Then our take is that your eternal soul is at risk and we don't want that... we want you to live.

I have personally vowed to become a Nazerite like Jesus and Samuel before him. So, please don't discount my voice out of hand because your soul might depend on it. Also, there are a couple of people here I think may have a direct line to God.

I think its safe to assume that we can agree that revelations states that only 144,000 people will be with Christ in the end times, that being said a big part of the church (probably any and all churches) will not be saved. Hence, it is likely that a more unconventional way of thinking will prevail over traditional church doctrine.

It's only by knowing God through Christ (or Christos which is the original translation of the bible) Mind, body and soul by following the way, the truth (which is gained by wisdom) and the life (which means being born again into heaven of spirit not of body).

Further, it is rumoured that church itself is the beast as established in the bible by 666, this can be evidenced by the numbered of priests involvement with children.

as you said more to discuss, but I await your response
Click to expand...

Alright. Well, thank you for your response, but it really doesn't seem like this is going anywhere.
I don't see the point in continuing this if you're not interested. I won't waste your time.
 
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wonkavision said:
Please tell me this: How can I discuss Original Sin without mentioning salvation, damnation, and how all of us by nature are born in sin, and in need of a Savior?

That's what Original Sin is all about! So, tell me, why do you feel a need to censor someone for talking about the topic at hand? And furthermore, why are you even here if you can't tolerate hearing about the subject?
Why don't you take personal responsibility for being in a thread about religious doctrines, and allow it to be at least a two-sided discussion?
Click to expand...

wonkavision said:
@Skarekrow

What good is a discussion about any topic without a variety of opinions/beliefs? But especially when it's a religious topic, shouldn't you have at least one religious person?

Does anyone really want a "safe space" where nothing offensive can hurt their little feelings? Or do mature adults actually expect to have strong disagreements with others on religion?
Click to expand...

wonkavision said:
@Skarekrow

Furthermore, everything that you've said to me is a personal attack. Are you kidding me?

The difference is that I just don't care. If you want to insult me, go on ahead and do it.

You just don't agree with the doctrine of Original Sin. Why don't you just say so?

And please consider staying away from religious topics if they bother you so much personally.
Click to expand...

wonkavision said:
Not unless you can handle a dogmatic response.

Besides, I'm getting tired of hearing Skarekrow's fits.

I know he'll butt in and start crying again, so if you really want to discuss things, PM me.
Click to expand...


You missed the whole entire point.
And your words just reinforce my own
I’m not here to tell you what to do - claiming I’m doing that is not true.
I am simply asking you to not treat me and other people like lowly “unsaved" scum and posting insulting and uncalled-for comments about our personal salvation of which you no NOTHING.
You can absolutely talk about salvation and damnation - but save your personal judgements to yourself - that’s it.
That’s the whole qualm.
Fucking thick man.
Enough of the patronizing commentary.
 
Emanuel Goldstein said:
Actually... we think the same way... but our concern is that your preaching is coming from a hardline church view rather then from your own heart. can we limit quotes to one at a time so we can give attention to each one? I'm using a tablet.

We (and I mean that loosely) think that if your interpretation of the above passages are wrong, Then our take is that your eternal soul is at risk and we don't want that... we want you to live.

I have personally vowed to become a Nazerite like Jesus and Samuel before him. So, please don't discount my voice out of hand because your soul might depend on it. Also, there are a couple of people here I think may have a direct line to God.

I think its safe to assume that we can agree that revelations states that only 144,000 people will be with Christ in the end times, that being said a big part of the church (probably any and all churches) will not be saved. Hence, it is likely that a more unconventional way of thinking will prevail over traditional church doctrine.

It's only by knowing God through Christ (or Christos which is the original translation of the bible) Mind, body and soul by following the way, the truth (which is gained by wisdom) and the life (which means being born again into heaven of spirit not of body).

Further, it is rumoured that church itself is the beast as established in the bible by 666, this can be evidenced by the numbered of priests involvement with children.

as you said more to discuss, but I await your response
Click to expand...
wonkavision said:
Alright. Well, thank you for your response, but it really doesn't seem like this is going anywhere.
I don't see the point in continuing this if you're not interested. I won't waste your time.
Click to expand...

I'm interested, just tell mewhere I went wrong?
 
I think what I just said was more than civil.
 
Emanuel Goldstein said:
Actually... we think the same way... but our concern is that your preaching is coming from a hardline church view rather then from your own heart. can we limit quotes to one at a time so we can give attention to each one? I'm using a tablet.

We (and I mean that loosely) think that if your interpretation of the above passages are wrong, Then our take is that your eternal soul is at risk and we don't want that... we want you to live.

I have personally vowed to become a Nazerite like Jesus and Samuel before him. So, please don't discount my voice out of hand because your soul might depend on it. Also, there are a couple of people here I think may have a direct line to God.

I think its safe to assume that we can agree that revelations states that only 144,000 people will be with Christ in the end times, that being said a big part of the church (probably any and all churches) will not be saved. Hence, it is likely that a more unconventional way of thinking will prevail over traditional church doctrine.

It's only by knowing God through Christ (or Christos which is the original translation of the bible) Mind, body and soul by following the way, the truth (which is gained by wisdom) and the life (which means being born again into heaven of spirit not of body).

Further, it is rumoured that church itself is the beast as established in the bible by 666, this can be evidenced by the numbered of priests involvement with children.

as you said more to discuss, but I await your response
Click to expand...
Skarekrow said:
You missed the whole entire point.
And your words just reinforce my own
I’m not here to tell you what to do - claiming I’m doing that is not true.
I am simply asking you to not treat me and other people like lowly “unsaved" scum and posting insulting and uncalled-for comments about our personal salvation of which you no NOTHING.
You can absolutely talk about salvation and damnation - but save your personal judgements to yourself - that’s it.
That’s the whole qualm.
Fucking thick man.
Enough of the patronizing commentary.
Click to expand...

Like I said, butting in and crying again.

Look man, I'm an INFJ just like you. I know we have a tendency to flip out and make no sense once we are in that state. I know that. But please calm down. It's alright.
 
wonkavision said:
You didn't "go wrong." It's just really clear to me that you're not interested in what the Bible says.

I don't want to waste my time or yours. And like I said, Skarekrow keeps butting in and crying.
Click to expand...
More assumptions pulled out of thin air about people you don’t know.
Yes...I’m full of tears.
Crying about your inability to act like a normal functioning human person who can hold a conversation without being patronizing, arrogant, or insulting.

@Emanuel Goldstein
“Turn the other cheek.”?
He hasn’t made it past “an eye for an eye” yet.
 
wonkavision said:
I act that way too sometimes, so I understand. But I wish he would just calm down.
Click to expand...

I wish you wouldn’t speak to me like you are my superior.
You are not....neither am I yours.
Goodnight.
Have fun.
 
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