Original Sin--Born with the sin nature...

wonkavision said:
I'm not telling you that you are lost just because I get pleasure from telling you you're lost. I'm also telling you that there is salvation in Christ (as he's revealed in the Scriptures).

And once again, it's not my opinion. It is the declaration of God in his Word. Read it yourself. Here is an explanation of all these things from the Bible itself:


Original sin, and the condemnation of God's holy Law against sin:

Romans 3:10-20

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


The only salvation there is from sin:

Romans 3:21-26

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



Skarekrow, when God sends someone to show you these things, and you kill the messenger, you only harm yourself. And yes, I would like to see you come to faith in Christ and be saved. Is that so bad?

The fact is you will not be saved unless and until God gives you the faith to believe on his darling Son as he's plainly revealed in his Holy Word. And I pray that he will.
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Jesus was supposed 2 be our kang.
 
wonkavision said:
Alright then, I apologize for calling you a clown. Didn't know that would be so hurtful.
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Thanks.
It was more than just a “clown”...almost every post has a direct character insult...but thanks for acknowledging that I have feelings too.
I apologize if you have taken offense at my sharp tongue I tend to have.
I’m not offended so much as it is wholly unnecessary and does not help one’s position, me included.
Anyhow, I’ll be more civil if you agree to be as well.
Just stop damning people to Hell on the forum - when you really don’t know me or anyone else, what we really believe or don’t, what our feelings on God are, what kind of faith and how much we have, events in our lives that have shaped our viewpoint including growing up in a specific religion.
These are really huge assumptions that detract from the conversation of Original Sin - you and I, as well as many others here who have been told things similarly could have a discussion without it being an “I’m right, you’re wrong.” scenario every time.
Do you see how that turns people off?
Then when they say anything to you, you throw out personal insults like calling them “Buffoons”.
You don’t know them, you are basing this whole thing on your own faith just as they are....and just as you feel strongly about your own faith - others do as well (myself included), I have never once questioned your own faith in God or your faith in your beliefs - yet you do not afford me or others the same right.
That is why my tongue may have gotten a bit sharp, so again - I am sorry.
Let’s all have an adult conversation without judging people and damning them to Hell because they believe and have faith that you personally disagree with, yes?
 
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Skarekrow said:
Thanks.
It was more than just a “clown”...almost every post has a direct character insult...but thanks for acknowledging that I have feelings too.
I apologize if you have taken offense at my sharp tongue I tend to have.
I’m not offended so much as it is wholly unnecessary and does not help one’s position, me included.
Anyhow, I’ll be more civil if you agree to be as well.
Just stop damning people to Hell on the forum - when you really don’t know me or anyone else, what we really believe or don’t, what our feelings on God are, what kind of faith and how much we have, events in our lives that have shaped our viewpoint including growing up in a specific religion.
These are really huge assumptions that detract from the conversation of Original Sin - you and I, as well as many others here who have been told things similarly could have a discussion without it being an “I’m right, you’re wrong.” scenario every time.
Do you see how that turns people off?
Then when they say anything to you, you throw out personal insults like calling them “Buffoons”.
You don’t know them, you are basing this whole thing on your own faith just as they are....and just as you feel strongly about your own faith - others do as well (myself included), I have never once questioned your own faith in God or your faith in your beliefs - yet you do not afford me or others the same right.
That is why my tongue may have gotten a bit sharp, so again - I am sorry.
Let’s all have an adult conversation without judging people and damning them to Hell because they believe and have faith that you personally disagree with, yes?
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Thanks, I appreciate your civility. However, your demands are unreasonable.

The OP asked, "How do you feel about Original Sin?" So, I don't see why I can't answer that question.

It is literally impossible to discuss the doctrine of Original Sin without mentioning salvation, damnation, and the fact that all of us by nature are born in sin, and in need of a Savior.

Therefore, your demands are wholly unreasonable.

And you have made it clear that you don't want to hear it. So I will accommodate you, but bear in mind that it's no loss to me, it's only your loss.

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Even in laughter the heart is sorrowful; and the end of that mirth is heaviness." -- Prov 14:12-13
 
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wonkavision said:
Meditate on
got to understand that you're a hell-deserving sinner before you'll ever trust in him and be saved. As long as you think you're good, you'll never come to him.

God has to convict you that you are a sinner that deserves nothing more than his just condemnation before you will come before him in repentance, believing that he is your Lord and your Savior.
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I agree with you in principle, but not in dogma. A sinner though we may be. God can no more "convict" us than you can convict yourself. God is the greater consciousness and he made us in his image. In other words, with consciousness, the body is what has sinned. If you clean you spirit by denying the pleasures of the body you will not be held here by your attachments when you die. God is your conscience, he does speak to you if you will listen. As a result I became a modern day Nazerite in order to explore this further. This, however is done to achieve Christ consciousness, permitting us to enter heaven. There is a reason why only 144,000 will be with Christ at the end times, because people will eat drink and be Merry, Fap, steal, be greedy, ignore their fellow MAN. I'm not perfect yet, but I'm working on it, baby steps.
 
Harsh...? no ... insult? yeah... it's definitely doesn't give out happy joy joy feelings, causes people to be less accepting of your point of view, because you have attempted to increase your credibility by attacking someone else's. Considering the company you keep we see right through that... I think apology shows humility, and I hope you choose not to damage yourcredibility (or argument) in the future
 
Darc said:
I think perhaps there existed either some utopian place or it was meant that much of


The Serpent was then the great seducer in this sense. I believe in some way seduced Eve with power, wealth, riches.

Anyway, I think the "fall of man perhaps" is when we started coppulating too much. It is true, it probably had something to do, the apple beimg "sweet" fruits, could easily interperted as sex, a little bit of both perhaps.

Anyway, I think it was aliens.
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Eden had an angel guarding it with a flaming (gay?) sword. That means it was in the first level of heaven and after the tasted the pleasures of the lower realities... they were kicked out of heaven into school were they could learn what this world is really like, cursed through many lives to be forced to find God without really knowing him and with the deck stacked against us, ensuring only the cream would rise to the top... hence, the 144,000.

but yeah aliens are possible... I think they were from Mexico.
 
wonkavision said:
Thanks, I appreciate your civility. However, your demands are unreasonable.

The OP asked, "How do you feel about Original Sin?" So, I don't see why I can't answer that question.

It is literally impossible to discuss the doctrine of Original Sin without mentioning salvation, damnation, and the fact that all of us by nature are born in sin, and in need of a Savior.

Therefore, your demands are wholly unreasonable.

And you have made it clear that you don't want to hear it. So I will accommodate you, but bear in mind that it's no loss to me, it's only your loss.

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Even in laughter the heart is sorrowful; and the end of that mirth is heaviness." -- Prov 14:12-13
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How is asking you to be reasonable unreasonable?
I never said you couldn’t answer it however you see fit.
I asked that you don’t pass your personal judgement upon me or others for not believing the same interpretations of the same book - as going to Hell.
You do not have the right or wisdom necessary to pass spiritual judgement upon people here over a forum where you know very little to nothing about someone.
That is a very reasonable request.
Instead, when someone questions you about what you are saying, you just tell them how wrong they are, how right you are, then insult and condemn them...it gets you nowhere fast.
Talk about your end of days and how we should fear God, but I ask that you withhold your own personal judgement on me and others that you don’t agree with - I have not attacked you as a person, only what you have spoken about regarding the Bible - can’t you refrain from condemning people?
Or is it like an automatic thing...you just walk around on your mobile soapbox thinking about how you are supposedly “saved” and all these other suckers are in for a big surprise...one you almost seem to gleefully pronounce, especially when you think of me going there.
Is it so hard to control yourself and keep your judgements to yourself?
Do your fingers type shit out without your knowledge?
Can you take personal responsibility for your actions or is it all just predetermined?
Do you think pedophile Alabama ex-Judge Roy Moore is forgiven from his sick behavior because he has “come to Christ”?


(I can post verses too)

23 This is what the LORD says: “Let not the wise boast of their wisdom or the strong boast of their strength or the rich boast of their riches,

3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves

5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.
 
Emanuel Goldstein said:
Are you open to open to other arguments that are not rooted strictly in the bible?
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Open to hearing them? Not unless I'm allowed to counter them with what the Bible says.

Why should I have to listen to unbiblical nonsense if I'm not allowed to rebut it?

Why is it that people come into a forum thread about religion and get offended when they hear religious dogma? It seems like you would expect that, and be able to put up with it or get out.
 
wonkavision said:
Open to hearing them? Not unless I'm allowed to counter them with what the Bible says.

Why should I have to listen to unbiblical nonsense if I'm not allowed to rebut it?
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@Emanuel Goldstein
In other words - Don’t bother, he’s already decided that whatever you are about to post is worthless and a waste of his time.
Derp, Sir.
Derp.
 
Skarekrow said:
How is asking you to be reasonable unreasonable?
I never said you couldn’t answer it however you see fit.
I asked that you don’t pass your personal judgement upon me or others for not believing the same interpretations of the same book - as going to Hell.
You do not have the right or wisdom necessary to pass spiritual judgement upon people here over a forum where you know very little to nothing about someone.
That is a very reasonable request.
Instead, when someone questions you about what you are saying, you just tell them how wrong they are, how right you are, then insult and condemn them...it gets you nowhere fast.
Talk about your end of days and how we should fear God, but I ask that you withhold your own personal judgement on me and others that you don’t agree with - I have not attacked you as a person, only what you have spoken about regarding the Bible - can’t you refrain from condemning people?
Or is it like an automatic thing...you just walk around on your mobile soapbox thinking about how you are supposedly “saved” and all these other suckers are in for a big surprise...one you almost seem to gleefully pronounce, especially when you think of me going there.
Is it so hard to control yourself and keep your judgements to yourself?
Do your fingers type shit out without your knowledge?
Can you take personal responsibility for your actions or is it all just predetermined?
Do you think pedophile Alabama ex-Judge Roy Moore is forgiven from his sick behavior because he has “come to Christ”?


(I can post verses too)

23 This is what the LORD says: “Let not the wise boast of their wisdom or the strong boast of their strength or the rich boast of their riches,

3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves

5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.
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Please tell me this: How can I discuss Original Sin without mentioning salvation, damnation, and how all of us by nature are born in sin, and in need of a Savior?

That's what Original Sin is all about! So, tell me, why do you feel a need to censor someone for talking about the topic at hand? And furthermore, why are you even here if you can't tolerate hearing about the subject?
Why don't you take personal responsibility for being in a thread about religious doctrines, and allow it to be at least a two-sided discussion?
 
@Skarekrow

What good is a discussion about any topic without a variety of opinions/beliefs? But especially when it's a religious topic, shouldn't you have at least one religious person?

Does anyone really want a "safe space" where nothing offensive can hurt their little feelings? Or do mature adults actually expect to have strong disagreements with others on religion?
 
@Skarekrow

Furthermore, everything that you've said to me is a personal attack. Are you kidding me?

The difference is that I just don't care. If you want to insult me, go on ahead and do it.

You just don't agree with the doctrine of Original Sin. Why don't you just say so?

And please consider staying away from religious topics if they bother you so much personally.
 
wonkavision said:
Why should I have to listen to unbiblical nonsense if I'm not allowed to rebut it?
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The problem is that you're not an established theologian, @wonkavision - so you lack the legitimacy to claim that what people who disagree say is "unbiblical nonsense". It's not intellectually honest to assume by definition that you have the authority on what the Bible says. You don't. What you claim about the Bible is as much subject to interpretation as what others say. You have to let go of this illegitimate moral high ground you claim for yourself if you want the discussion to proceed.

As far as I can tell, St. Thomas Aquinas surpasses you in theological knowledge, yet he was always willing to discuss these topics rationally, not by quoting the Bible at every opportunity and arbitrarily claiming that it supported his points. Be like Aquinas: make logical, reasoned arguments. That's what we're looking for.
 
wonkavision said:
Open to hearing them? Not unless I'm allowed to counter them with what the Bible says.

Why should I have to listen to unbiblical nonsense if I'm not allowed to rebut it?

Why is it that people come into a forum thread about religion and get offended when they hear religious dogma? It seems like you would expect that, and be able to put up with it or get out.
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Wow... um... okay ... lot of anger in there.

I'm not attacking you, I use the bible as a source all the time. It's one of my most important guides, but it just a guide to the "way". It (the bible) specifically said that the disciples were forbidden from preaching in asia

Acts:16:6
.“Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia..."

so why? Was it because Asia was already covered? It's not because of persecution cause they got that in Rome... It is my theory that Buddhism was there preaching the way... and God forbid that we confuse the sheep.

I'm not saying your dogma is wrong I'm just suggesting you don't cling to it like a life raft. Widen your gaze, because in Buddhism it suggests and I'm paraphrasing (most people don't get this) When you've gotten used to the rules and your on the path. You don't need the rules anymore because you now have wisdom and you live "the way, the truth and the life"

Strict adherence to any dogma always causes the opposite of what Christ wanted. It causes people to be defensive and angry (wrath) and willing even to break the 10 laws in the bible to kill those who disagree. While Christ said said if someone strikes you turn the other cheek let them hit you again. This means you should always take the higher moral ground in every situation. If someone steals from you, give him more, show compassion for his situation (like the priest in the Count of Monte Cristo).

God created you in his image so start listening to your spirit and ignore the ego. There are things you questioned about the bible when you were a child. Those questions were purest because you were closer to God then and they are still valid.

You are my brother or sister. I listen to you in the same way I listen to them.
 
Ren said:
The problem is that you're not an established theologian, @wonkavision - so you lack the legitimacy to claim that what people who disagree say is "unbiblical nonsense". It's not intellectually honest to assume by definition that you have the authority on what the Bible says. You don't. What you claim about the Bible is as much subject to interpretation as what others say. You have to let go of this illegitimate moral high ground you claim for yourself if you want the discussion to proceed.

As far as I can tell, St. Thomas Aquinas surpasses you in theological knowledge, yet he was always willing to discuss these topics rationally, not by quoting the Bible at every opportunity and arbitrarily claiming that it supported his points. Be like Aquinas: make logical, reasoned arguments. That's what we're looking for.
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I'm not an "established theologian"?

Please tell me what the requirements are for that.
 
wonkavision said:
@Skarekrow

What good is a discussion about any topic without a variety of opinions/beliefs? But especially when it's a religious topic, shouldn't you have at least one religious person?

Does anyone really want a "safe space" where nothing offensive can hurt their little feelings? Or do mature adults actually expect to have strong disagreements with others on religion?
Click to expand...

turn the other cheek brother, be your highest self. Forgive/forget and start over
Ren said:
The problem is that you're not an established theologian, @wonkavision - so you lack the legitimacy to claim that what people who disagree say is "unbiblical nonsense". It's not intellectually honest to assume by definition that you have the authority on what the Bible says. You don't. What you claim about the Bible is as much subject to interpretation as what others say. You have to let go of this illegitimate moral high ground you claim for yourself if you want the discussion to proceed.

As far as I can tell, St. Thomas Aquinas surpasses you in theological knowledge, yet he was always willing to discuss these topics rationally, not by quoting the Bible at every opportunity and arbitrarily claiming that it supported his points. Be like Aquinas: make logical, reasoned arguments. That's what we're looking for.
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God made him in the image of himself... makes him an expert and everyone else so let's calm down a smidge, I enjoy the voice of opposition... gives us something to talk about... would suck if we all agreed. @wonkavision @Skarekrow
 
So let me get this straight.....

The OP asks the question, "How do you feel about Original Sin?" And no one is supposed to say, "I believe in it. And here's what the Bible says about it...." --- That's wrong.

Please tell me what the point is of having a thread about religious topics if it is forbidden to have a dogmatic opinion about it?

Or better yet, please consider posting your response here: https://www.infjs.com/threads/dogmatism-in-religious-discourse.34452/
 
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