[PUG] Osama Bin Laden is dead Part II

[~jet]

Nearly ten years and billions upon billions of dollars to kill tens of thousands of civilians in response to 3000+ civilian deaths is completely asinine and irresponsible in my opinion. To celebrate this like a victory makes me angry.

Quotes vary; last reckoning I heard from a reliable source was hundreds of thousands dead and roughly 5 million left as (or near to being) refugees.

 

[bickelz]

It's interesting that the American government are so quick to point out the number of innocent lives that Osama is responsible for ending, yet completely ignore the countless civilians they have killed while trying to capture him or take over Iraq...

Yeah, if you caught Obama's speech he said that the SEALS "made an effort to not kill civilians" which means innocent lives were lost. I also heard a news report that they used women as human shields.

I got a perverse feeling of similarity when I heard that people were cheering in the streets outside of the world trade center last night. It reminded me of when there was cheering in the streets in the middle east after those very towers had fallen. Cheering over the death of an enemy.

Samsies. I feel that America is super hypocritical after seeing that and I really think I'm alone on this one. I hope no one asks me my opinion in person on this because they'll try to make me look bad.

I do not believe he has the amount of power that the people think he has.

I'll give you a free pass on this one since you're from Australia and probably have not read the constitution (which most americans haven't) but Article 2 concerning the presidents powers is about as long as this post and is very open ended. The president has every power that congress lets him get away with.

 

[myself]

Anyone who rejoices in this ugly scene is brainwashed.

 

[Candice_XX]

I remembered why the war didn't stop after a few bombings. There were weapons!

Well everybody have weapons and are potential enemies, that's not a reason to destroy the world. And enemies are endless as long as you destroy their countries. Maybe you can make peace with everyone but making war with somebody because he has weapons and he is aggressive is a little bit weird. Even in pc games (where there is no option for peace) they do not make such mistakes. In serious pc games of strategy not "kill them all" games.

 

[Stu]

[MENTION=1939]Dave[/MENTION]

But why the war didn't stop after a few bombings?

In a word, Sublimation, al queda was all up and in Afghanistan to the point that the parasite (queda) was sublimated onto the nation (Afghanistan). The attack was of such a magnitude that the American citizenry could only make sense of it as an act of war by one nation on another. The politics of the era left all out war as inevitable. If Bush had not made war on Afghanistan, The next president would have. In fact it would have been better for the US if it had declared war, as the US constitution allows for, and raised taxes to pay for it.

and then the war on Afghanistan could be sublimated onto Iraq.

.......................George and company really wanted an excuse to take over Iraq and get revenge on Sadaam. So they made war over there - cost us millions of dollars - and thousands of lives - all based upon lies.l:

If there had been a declaration of war against Afghanistan, Iraq would not have been so easy. (where was the frikin tea party when we needed them?)

But, IN MY OPINION, the subsequent drain on the US of fighting endless wars in Islamic countries have had a severely crippling effect. (eg the recession) The wars were and are bad policy.

 

[bickelz]

I heard a report that the DNA evidence was 99.9% certain. So, there is actual doubt. 0.1% doubt. That's a big error when talking about DNA people. Humans are about 99.7% identical to the gorilla in Africa. So when talking about DNA evidence, 99.9% is not certain enough. At least that's how I feel about it.

 

[aerosol]

i am not at all concerned about the details of the politics involved,
because i am busy wondering how angry bin Ladin's people are and what they are gonna try to do to us.

 

[Chamomile]

I heard a report that the DNA evidence was 99.9% certain. So, there is actual doubt. 0.1% doubt. That's a big error when talking about DNA people. Humans are about 99.7% identical to the gorilla in Africa. So when talking about DNA evidence, 99.9% is not certain enough. At least that's how I feel about it.

DNA forensic evidence doesn't really have anything to do with the similarities of people and animals. Its way too much to try to explain, but this site does a pretty good job:

http://www.scientific.org/tutorials/articles/riley/riley.html

DNA evidence is the gold standard for a reason. They aren't 2.2% more certain it is human DNA as opposed to gorilla or something, they're 99.9% certain it belongs to a specific human compared to another specific human. Its just like a fingerprint, except you can't change it. Also considering the arid conditions in the region, there's a good chance the DNA was collected before it was contaminated or degraded. And I'm sure they didn't only test it once. I think the DNA evidence being false would more likely be from a cover up than from inaccuracy. Plus DNA evidence isn't the only way to confirm identity (such as forensic skeletal analysis), but it is the most respected and ironclad. DNA evidence being inaccurate would more often come from a lab error, but the chances of that on a case this high profile is incredibly low.

 

[~jet]

i am not at all concerned about the details of the politics involved,
because i am busy wondering how angry bin Ladin's people are and what they are gonna try to do to us.

That's kinda the point, though; if you're afraid, you're compliant

 

[bickelz]

[MENTION=3900]Chamomile[/MENTION] but this was a fresh body. Idk how exactly the arid climate would create problems with degradation or contamination. I know fully well about genetics and how dna works as well but that's a substantial margin of error given the gravity of the situation. It's all a bit suspicious.

Assuming there are 3 billion base pairs, 0.1% of the genome equates to 3 million base pairs error ad between 20 and 25 genes. That's a whole different human i'll have you know. And considering Osama used body doubles the whole thing seems fishy. I mean, we're talking about the number one most wanted person in the world for ten years.

I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist but to most Americans, 99.9% seems more accurate than it is. Why would they say 99.9% and not just say the dna evidence confirmed it was him."We're pretty sure we got the guy so now we're gonna throw him into the Atlantic". It whatevs.

 

[jyrffw54]

My feelings concerning the whole matter could best be described as similar to putting an animal down that needed to be put down. An unfortunate chain of events to have happened in the first place, leading to death. An occurence.

I got a perverse feeling of similarity when I heard that people were cheering in the streets outside of the world trade center last night. It reminded me of when there was cheering in the streets in the middle east after those very towers had fallen. Cheering over the death of an enemy.

Whether or not a murder is justified, it is still a murder. What someone does on hearing of a death, even of someone they dislike, is quite telling of them I think. The actions of people after they've heard about a death on the "other team", or on their own. Murder, for the latter, would be cause for anger and retaliation. For the former, a cause for celebration.

I can only call it ignorant, or juvenile. But go ahead and cheer and cry with happiness over death, America! Just don't expect me to join in.

Good job, humanity!

I whole-heartedly agree here.

Yes, "justice was reached". Yes, it's been over a decade. But seeing all this cheering over the murder of a man like this, terrorist or not, just downright disturbs me.

I understand that thosuands of loved ones were lost in the 9-11 disaster, but murdering Bin Laden won't bring them back. They've moved on to another life, another dimension of space and time.

I view today as an ideal day to reflect on what has happened ,and to remember those who we've lost. And to look to the future with a bit more hope for the country, for the troops.

 

[bickelz]

I was just on CNSnews.com reading some of the comments because I troll there sometimes but I found this.

My nephew is a Navy Seal. He told his father that even though OBL was indeed buried at sea, he was first skinned, and his hide was stretched over a 2,000 lb. bomb which is scheduled to be delivered somewhere in Muslim land.

I hope that's not true. I can't even articulate how that would make me feel.

 

[aerosol]

That's kinda the point, though; if you're afraid, you're compliant

correct me if i'm wrong (i haven't read all of the posts in this thread) but i feel like you're suggesting a conspiracy by saying this? what kind of conspiracy would this all be about? is there a conspiracy theory that would say that the al qaeda hating the United States is fake?

 

[Stu]

..........this cheering over the murder of a man like this, terrorist or not, just downright disturbs me.

I understand that thosuands of loved ones were lost in the 9-11 disaster, but murdering Bin Laden won't bring them back. .

Murder is unjustified homicide. It would be tough to argue that his death by gunfire was not justified. (hard but not impossible)

What I find sad is the inevitability of warfare. But I did see Daniel Ellis (who leaked the Pentagon Papers during the Vietnam War) stating that the wars we engage in are less violent and have far lower casualties.
He took it as a sign that we are becoming more oriented toward peace.

 

[not sure]

Yes, "justice was reached". Yes, it's been over a decade. But seeing all this cheering over the murder of a man like this, terrorist or not, just downright disturbs me.

Are you saying that Osama bin Laden's death was a result of an unlawful killing because that is what murder is? If that's the case how can you say, "Yes, "justice was reached""? If you believe his killing to be unjust then please consider referring to it as an unjust killing. The victims of murder and their survivors deserve that respect.

 

[bickelz]

correct me if i'm wrong (i haven't read all of the posts in this thread) but i feel like you're suggesting a conspiracy by saying this? what kind of conspiracy would this all be about? is there a conspiracy theory that would say that the al qaeda hating the United States is fake?

I wouldn't go as far as saying that Al-Qaeda hating the us is a conspiracy but the reasons for them hating us are not well known. Sure, they do bad stuff but we do too. They hate us because of our involvement in the middle east, that we're there and how our oil companies treat them.

Just realize that Al-Qaeda doesn't think of themselves as the bad guys and things start to change. The attacks on our country happened for a reason whether it was justified or not. I don't believe in violence so I don't think either side is justified.

Both sides are as evil as the other. Except the us is worse because it's hypocritical.

 

[not sure]

They hate us because of our involvement in the middle east, that we're there and how our oil companies treat them.

Are you sure about this? As a non-American it seems to me that they hate the US because it represents a seductive lifestyle that threatens the Middle Eastern oligarchs' hold on power. Bin Laden was no "sufferer".

 

[Stu]

.............. I don't believe in violence so I don't think either side is justified.

Both sides are as evil as the other. Except the us is worse because it's hypocritical.

not believing in violence, meaning shunning it, never condoning it, in that case neither side would be justified..... this is reasonable.

Believing both sides to be equally evil because they both use violence,...... this is reasonable

Believing the US is worse because it's hypocritical........This is not reasonable.

 

[Jill Hives]

When I heard this news I thought I would have a stronger opinion on it than I do. Turns out I am more apathetic about it now.

Although it honestly makes me sad seeing that there are people partying and celebrating. It's a little depressing, it's like the negativity/intolerance is just seeping through the atmosphere.

 

[jyrffw54]

Are you saying that Osama bin Laden's death was a result of an unlawful killing because that is what murder is? If that's the case how can you say, "Yes, "justice was reached""? If you believe his killing to be unjust then please consider referring to it as an unjust killing. The victims of murder and their survivors deserve that respect.

Murder is unjustified homicide. It would be tough to argue that his death by gunfire was not justified. (hard but not impossible)

What I find sad is the inevitability of warfare. But I did see Daniel Ellis (who leaked the Pentagon Papers during the Vietnam War) stating that the wars we engage in are less violent and have far lower casualties.
He took it as a sign that we are becoming more oriented toward peace.

Justified or not, should we we celebrating killing someone?