Paris Shootings, Explosion & Hostage Crisis 11/13

[Eventhorizon]

And you know its funny but I consider myself to have far greater respect for life than what seems like a majority of religious folks. I realize this is my opinion but... religious folks believe theres something after death and that because of it the faithful will continue to live on in apparent happiness. A religious doctor might say "its in gods hands now" when faced with a person they have given up on being able to cure. NO its in YOUR hands. I like to believe we continue on but in the mean time life matters. It cant just be shooed away by the promise this isnt the real life we are all meant to live.

 

[JJJA]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I miss the old glory days of the New Atheist movement.

You can fucking say that again...

Hitchens would wipe the floor with these forumites that think bashing the creator of the intellectual medicine is going to bring down the external attacker (Islamic fascism).

 

[Skarekrow]

You have got to be joking. Indonesia?

Ever heard of the Bali bombings - more dead than at Paris?
Ever heard of how they execute mentally disabled people?
Ever heard of what they did to the Papua New Guineans ? (We're talking ongoing genocide).
Ever heard of the Jakarta bombings?
Ever heard of the Bangkok bombings?
All of the bombings have targeted Westerners.
Trains have women-only-carriages, because the rate of sexual assault was so high in mixed carriages.
ISIS affiliation is actually starting to become mainstream in Indonesia.

If you think Indonesia is better than the US I think you might be on a slightly different page.

For every attack you listed, I can list one perpetrated by Americans or other western group…once again your point is lost.
Every heard of Manzanar? Or operation “Wetback” - yes that was the real name.
How about the Bush cabinet approving torture going against international treaties we signed in good will?
I’m sure no one was tortured to death at any of the “black sites” we had or still have around the world.
And it is shameful how the US used to treat and continues to treat it’s mentally ill.
It wasn’t until Kennedy that we closed down the “snake pit” mental institutions where people were mistreated, forgotten, abused, and killed.
But, now we just send them to prison…so problem fixed I guess huh?
Or the OK city bombing?
Or the war in Iraq?
Or the Boston bomber?

Once again…*sigh*…I’m not saying that there are not certain countries like Saudi Arabia and pals that shouldn’t get their just due and are breeding extremism.
Also, Bangkok is in Thailand, not Indonesia.

 

[Eventhorizon]

[MENTION=13730]PintoBean[/MENTION]

Granted, this is a comic, but I think it illustrates the point [MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=13723]Misadventure[/MENTION] were trying to make:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/atheism

There should be hell of a lot more likes on this. Accurate as hell even though its offered in comedic form.

 

[JJJA]

There should be hell of a lot more likes on this. Accurate as hell even though its offered in comedic form.

The fact that it is offered in the form of humor equally summarises how accurate it truly is.

 

[Eventhorizon]

I am really getting sick of people bashing the US. Oh look at all the bad things the US has done. As if we are some kid at school getting bullied constantly and the day we stand up to defend ourself we are then looked upon as being no better than the people that have bullied us.
BS. At least we try to be responsible and certainly to a far greater extent than those we end up fighting. The US isnt perfect but it sure as hell is the best country in the world. For those of you who dont like it try living...or for that matter visiting another country and go beyond the tourist sections. Theres no country like ours. Can it be improved upon? Hell yes. We just need to walk by lesser minds like what we currently have and move the country forward toward a future that can actually work.

 

[Skarekrow]

^^^ Wasn’t bashing the US.
Was making a point to the person I was talking to that all of our shit stinks.

There are evil people…not evil Gods.

 

[JJJA]

The bloodiest regimes in recent history have been basically atheistic states. Stalin 20 million dead in the gulags/purges (this from a nation where religion was banned and declared "the opiate of the people), Mao maybe 45 million worked, beaten and starved to death, Pol Pot 7-8 million starved, and butchered, Hitler 8-11 million in the death camps. What do all these guys have in common? Avowedly atheist or anti-religion.

I'm no bible thumper myself. A confused agnostic at best. But the anti-religion/blame all religions sentiment never fails to befuddle me. Atheist circles are now preaching their distaste for religion with religious fervor! It is perhaps demagoguery that is the problem, whether it hides under a spiritual or political facade. Islamofascism is not the fault of other religions or all religions. That some Muslims choose to behave criminally is not the fault of all religions.

Atheistic states? Are you serious? You most definitely are a confused agnostic. Due to the nature of how Atheism works, a state cannot be Atheistic unless every single person that is born confirms to the state that he/she is an Atheist and will be for the rest of his/her life. Now, I don't mean to state the obvious but....not everyone in Stalin's Russia was an Atheist, and Stalin did not commit his crimes because an Atheistic epiphany he had when he was indoctrinated into Atheism as a small boy. The difference between Religion (lets use Islam as an example) and Atheism is this: Muslims that claim that ISIS do not represent their faith are denying facts and are very delusional because (quite rightly so) they are offended by what the extremists are doing in the name of their religion. The fact of the matter is, they ARE doing it in the name of Islam. Read the texts. Read the history. It's all there in black and white.

Atheism is not a cult, it is not a belief system, and it is not a religion. It is a term given to people that lack belief, that prefer to abstain themselves from believing in things that simply do not exist in their point of view. [MENTION=13729]Free2be[/MENTION] is indeed an Atheist and an Anti-Theist, like myself. And also like myself, we do not have a book of perfectly worded and bigoted idealism to guide our actions and our long-lasting vengeance on those that wish to believe opposing views about the world. Atheism does not have any figure of authority, it does not contain any laws, and it certainly doesn't speak for the likes of Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin. Stalin believed in a Marxist interpretation of the world, and therefore his bible was not Atheism; it was the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx, which included non-belief and a very large grouping of beliefs. Adolf Hitler believed in a Nordic and Pagan interpretation of the world, and therefore his bible encompassed the beliefs and practices of the National Socialist German Workers' Party. Mao Zedong claimed his people's lives due to a terrible combination of economics and Socialist policy. Pol Pot was an insane lunatic living under house arrest.

I shall stress my main point to conclude: Atheism is not a cult and is merely an idea of self-responsibility in the act of not believing in a supreme being and/or authority figure of biblical/prophet proportions. Religion is more than just an idea; it is a grouping of terrible ideas in a book that hold's indoctrinated people to ransom in exchange for their abject enslavement under a supreme authority that they cannot see, touch, or speak to. What kind of world do I live in where people are attacking the former idea, and defending the latter? This is not a world I wish to bring up children, but I guess I don't have a choice in my current lifetime.

 

[Skarekrow]

Thought some of you might need some inspiration to strap on your armor of God and defeat the terrorists!


[video=youtube;O9DHgnKeAxo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=O9DHgnKeAxo[/video]

 

[Flavus Aquila]

For every attack you listed, I can list one perpetrated by Americans or other western group…once again your point is lost.
Every heard of Manzanar? Or operation “Wetback” - yes that was the real name.
How about the Bush cabinet approving torture going against international treaties we signed in good will?
I’m sure no one was tortured to death at any of the “black sites” we had or still have around the world.
And it is shameful how the US used to treat and continues to treat it’s mentally ill.
It wasn’t until Kennedy that we closed down the “snake pit” mental institutions where people were mistreated, forgotten, abused, and killed.
But, now we just send them to prison…so problem fixed I guess huh?
Or the OK city bombing?
Or the war in Iraq?
Or the Boston bomber?

Once again…*sigh*…I’m not saying that there are not certain countries like Saudi Arabia and pals that shouldn’t get their just due and are breeding extremism.
Also, Bangkok is in Thailand, not Indonesia.

The US does have lots of problems, however many would argue that the people the US government gets heavy with have it coming. My point was that your claiming Indonesia was an example of a nice Islamic country was absurd.

The 2006 Bangkok bombings make the list against Indonesia. The consensus is that it was carried out by Jemaah Islamiyah.

 

[Skarekrow]

The US does have lots of problems, however many would argue that the people the US government gets heavy with have it coming. My point was that your claiming Indonesia was an example of a nice Islamic country was absurd.

The 2006 Bangkok bombings make the list against Indonesia. The consensus is that it was carried out by Jemaah Islamiyah.

I’m just not scared of their religion…sorry.
I don’t give a fuck what people personally believe - that is their own prerogative.
If they want to be Muslim, then they have that right…and the majority of Muslims in the recent survey I cited here shows that they overwhelmingly dislike or even hate ISIS.

And…once again…let me reiterate it a third or fourth time.
I agree there are some counties that are breeding grounds for religious extremists.
It just so happens that most of those countries are America’s and the West’s supposed allies, which is utter BS and people need to wake up.

Who had it coming? The American-Japanese who got sent to interment camps? - They most certainly did not. Is that what the solution is? Because the other one is to figure out how we can all live together.

You think we cannot do that…I think we can.
Nuff said.

 

[Skarekrow]

It takes a very small number of people to scare the shit out of you all.
Simply amazing.
No wonder they keep terrorizing people - it works so well.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Tell me of the god in your religion. You are an atheist concerning every other god besides yours. Full atheists just take it one god further

 

[PintoBean]

[MENTION=13730]PintoBean[/MENTION]

Granted, this is a comic, but I think it illustrates the point [MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=13723]Misadventure[/MENTION] were trying to make:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/atheism

I get that you can illustrate aspects of my post with a cartoon, but it really doesn't change my point that I find the idea of blaming all religions for the atrocities of individuals who happen to be part of a certain religion makes no sense to me logically or in historical terms.

 

[PintoBean]

Atheistic states? Are you serious? You most definitely are a confused agnostic. Due to the nature of how Atheism works, a state cannot be Atheistic unless every single person that is born confirms to the state that he/she is an Atheist and will be for the rest of his/her life...

I have never heard of this rule! I used the word "state" to mean regime. I thought that was pretty clear. Obviously the religious members of these states/regimes/whatever word you choose who were persecuted for their religious beliefs, were not atheists.

 

[just me]

President Barack Obama would veto a Republican bill introduced in the wake of the Paris attacks to toughen the screening process for Syrian refugees, the White House declared Wednesday, according to AFP.

The House of Representatives could vote as early as Thursday on resolution 4038, unveiled earlier on Wednesday, which aims to block administration plans to resettle 10,000 Syrian refugees in the coming year.

"Given the lives at stake and the critical importance to our partners in the Middle East and Europe of American leadership in addressing the Syrian refugee crisis, if the President were presented with H.R. 4038, he would veto the bill," the White House said.

Unveiled by House Homeland Security chairman Michael McCaul, the bill aims to strengthen vetting procedures for Syrian and Iraqi refugees in the wake of Friday's attacks that killed 129, carried out by Syria-linked jihadists.

The plan would require the director of the FBI, the Secretary of Homeland Security and the Director of National Intelligence to certify that each refugee is not a security threat.

"This legislation would introduce unnecessary and impractical requirements that would unacceptably hamper our efforts to assist some of the most vulnerable people in the world, many of whom are victims of terrorism, and would undermine our partners in the Middle East and Europe in addressing the Syrian refugee crisis," the White House said in a statement quoted by AFP. Debka

Our safety must not be important to Obama; excuse me: The White House.

 

[Quiet]

[MENTION=13730]PintoBean[/MENTION]

Granted, this is a comic, but I think it illustrates the point [MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=13723]Misadventure[/MENTION] were trying to make:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/atheism

I think what this cartoon illustrates is that all people are more complex than any ideology that they hold.
Blaming religion or lack of religion or atheism is not getting us as a people anywhere productive, nor does it give us a practical approach to address any issues. As much as many ideologies are ugly...and they certainly are....ideologies in themselves....being without personhood....are not able to murder anyone. It is people that create religions, philosophies, books, sciences, societies, cultures and relationships. It is people that kill people. Ideologies that are totalitarian and fascist are powerful because people choose to hold them. The real question is...why does a person choose to hold and support a totalitarian and fascist ideology?

We could say it is because they are mentally ill or psychologically damaged. Or ignorant. Or because they are uneducated. Or because they have no access to alternative information. Or that it is cultural conditioning. Or there is fear of social/cultural exclusion.

One thing that is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt is that they are afraid. Deeply afraid. Whether this fear is of any 'God' construction, of their body, of life, of people, of mortality, the future etc, all of it amounts to the same result.
People that are deeply afraid want to control their environment and other people. They keenly feel an 'ememy' that they believe...in controlling and conquoring...will ultimately control and conquor their sense of fear and powerlessness.

What can be done? Clearly it is complex and that depends on the personal choice of the person that holds the fascist/totalitarian ideology. Im not getting into that because im not interested in changing anyone else's mind.

But what we can do is to continue living our life that is meaningful and joyous to us. Do not let someone else's fear conquor you. Do not let your own fear get the better of you.
If we want things to change, if we want to have a bright future, we have to believe in that future and make it happen. The future belongs to people, not to ideologies. Keep on doing more of the things that bring you joy. Set the example of what you want to see happen. Make it happen. More trust, more cooperation, sustainability, respect, freedom of thought and expression. We protect what we cherish not by creating prisons and borders around it, but by giving it our sincere attention, energy and time. If you pay careful attention to your garden....it will be be harder for any weeds to grow in the first place, because you will not create a space for weeds to grow, and if they do grow, you can pull them out before they start taking over the garden. Its not about rose coloured glasses, its about actually paying attention and feeding the roses and the apples and the oranges.

Do not let anyone take your present away by predicting a dire future. You are powerful, and you have agency.... What you do and think now will create your future. Whatever happens, do not lose faith in people, in the world, in the future, and most significantly...don't lose faith in yourself. Otherwise....there really is no point in trying. We try because we think things will get better. And that is how things actually get better.

 

[hush]

[MENTION=4956]charlene[/MENTION]

Well said. : )

It's great to see you around.

 

[Eventhorizon]

I get that you can illustrate aspects of my post with a cartoon, but it really doesn't change my point that I find the idea of blaming all religions for the atrocities of individuals who happen to be part of a certain religion makes no sense to me logically or in historical terms.

All? This by no means is all. Its important to know why people die though. Do your best to understand this cartoon... to absorb its meaning.

 

[Eventhorizon]

President Barack Obama would veto a Republican bill introduced in the wake of the Paris attacks to toughen the screening process for Syrian refugees, the White House declared Wednesday, according to AFP.

The House of Representatives could vote as early as Thursday on resolution 4038, unveiled earlier on Wednesday, which aims to block administration plans to resettle 10,000 Syrian refugees in the coming year.

"Given the lives at stake and the critical importance to our partners in the Middle East and Europe of American leadership in addressing the Syrian refugee crisis, if the President were presented with H.R. 4038, he would veto the bill," the White House said.

Unveiled by House Homeland Security chairman Michael McCaul, the bill aims to strengthen vetting procedures for Syrian and Iraqi refugees in the wake of Friday's attacks that killed 129, carried out by Syria-linked jihadists.

The plan would require the director of the FBI, the Secretary of Homeland Security and the Director of National Intelligence to certify that each refugee is not a security threat.

"This legislation would introduce unnecessary and impractical requirements that would unacceptably hamper our efforts to assist some of the most vulnerable people in the world, many of whom are victims of terrorism, and would undermine our partners in the Middle East and Europe in addressing the Syrian refugee crisis," the White House said in a statement quoted by AFP. Debka

Our safety must not be important to Obama; excuse me: The White House.

We are back to, punishing a majority for the actions of a few. Ive tried to find information on what exactly relocation for them means. Is it automatic citizenship, how long do they get to stay etc... nothing. I cant even find information on the screening process. All of which means we are left hoping our government officials are competent enough...care enough to have the safety of America in mind. Which, quite honestly is their only responsibility.
I think its safe to say that Obama has failed at everything he has touched. His actions have harmed America to a far greater extent than have helped either by deliberate attempt or because of incompetence. As a result we simply cannot allow any plan of his and this nature to happen. Care about Americans? Hes proven he wants them dead time and time again.
It is sad because I do feel as if a majority of these people should be helped. We just cant take the chance under any plan Obama has come up with.