Paris Shootings, Explosion & Hostage Crisis 11/13

As a note I just read a story about these massive ghost cities in China. Housing that is untouched and unlived in that was built. Its brand new, never touched and currently no plans for people to live there. Entire cities basically built and left abandoned.
This seems like a great solution to the refugee crisis.
 
I think what this cartoon illustrates is that all people are more complex than any ideology that they hold.
Blaming religion or lack of religion or atheism is not getting us as a people anywhere productive, nor does it give us a practical approach to address any issues. As much as many ideologies are ugly...and they certainly are....ideologies in themselves....being without personhood....are not able to murder anyone. It is people that create religions, philosophies, books, sciences, societies, cultures and relationships. It is people that kill people. Ideologies that are totalitarian and fascist are powerful because people choose to hold them. The real question is...why does a person choose to hold and support a totalitarian and fascist ideology?

We could say it is because they are mentally ill or psychologically damaged. Or ignorant. Or because they are uneducated. Or because they have no access to alternative information. Or that it is cultural conditioning. Or there is fear of social/cultural exclusion.

One thing that is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt is that they are afraid. Deeply afraid. Whether this fear is of any 'God' construction, of their body, of life, of people, of mortality, the future etc, all of it amounts to the same result.
People that are deeply afraid want to control their environment and other people. They keenly feel an 'ememy' that they believe...in controlling and conquoring...will ultimately control and conquor their sense of fear and powerlessness.

What can be done? Clearly it is complex and that depends on the personal choice of the person that holds the fascist/totalitarian ideology. Im not getting into that because im not interested in changing anyone else's mind.

But what we can do is to continue living our life that is meaningful and joyous to us. Do not let someone else's fear conquor you. Do not let your own fear get the better of you.
If we want things to change, if we want to have a bright future, we have to believe in that future and make it happen. The future belongs to people, not to ideologies. Keep on doing more of the things that bring you joy. Set the example of what you want to see happen. Make it happen. More trust, more cooperation, sustainability, respect, freedom of thought and expression. We protect what we cherish not by creating prisons and borders around it, but by giving it our sincere attention, energy and time. If you pay careful attention to your garden....it will be be harder for any weeds to grow in the first place, because you will not create a space for weeds to grow, and if they do grow, you can pull them out before they start taking over the garden. Its not about rose coloured glasses, its about actually paying attention and feeding the roses and the apples and the oranges.

Do not let anyone take your present away by predicting a dire future. You are powerful, and you have agency.... What you do and think now will create your future. Whatever happens, do not lose faith in people, in the world, in the future, and most significantly...don't lose faith in yourself. Otherwise....there really is no point in trying. We try because we think things will get better. And that is how things actually get better.

Not bad.
Im not sure you can say that all people want to control out of fear. I myself believe control is necessary in certain circumstances but not out of fear. The person coming at my family with a knife, with a gun..a bomb etc... So if I have one arm of an institution that I believe can take care of these things and my alternative is something that will take care of them to a lesser degree or not at all...if these are my choices. .. what do you believe I will pick?
 
Not bad.
Im not sure you can say that all people want to control out of fear. I myself believe control is necessary in certain circumstances but not out of fear. The person coming at my family with a knife, with a gun..a bomb etc... So if I have one arm of an institution that I believe can take care of these things and my alternative is something that will take care of them to a lesser degree or not at all...if these are my choices. .. what do you believe I will pick?


I dont understand what you are saying or what your question is. Could you please elaborate?

Wanting to control people and the environment through the application of totalitarian and fascist ideology is not the same as wanting to contol the water temperature in the shower, or the heat on the stove, or wanting to choose what you have for dinner, or what movie you will watch, or what videogame you will buy.
Is that what you were getting at?

There is a need to control that stems directly from fear, and this involves trying to gain a sense of power through disempowering or eliminating the 'other' or the object of fear. In a social context this requires some form of fascism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, martial rule, censorship
This can be contrasted with being deliberate, focused, and intentional....exercising you personal power and agency to make choices in order to actively create situations, environments and interactions that are meaningful, beneficial, and pleasing to you. This does not require the desire to disempower anyone else, or to undemocratically enforce an environment or situation on people. In a social context, this requires democracy, social and economic mobility, freedom of speech and expression, transparent judiciary, accountability

Also there is self control....where the individual takes responsibility for thoughts, emotions, and actions, and is thus empowered through this sense of personal responsibility.

Why do people make the choices that they do? All decisions are powerful, because they are an avowal of what we choose to focus on, what we give attention, energy, time, money, and mindspace to....basically what we want to empower and potentially manifest into physicality. Our choices define what we want in life.

Interestingly....and i ask this not necessarily expecting any answer....potentially a rhetorical question....why do people choose to invent, create, produce, fund, watch, 'play', and buy media that has violence, theft, rape, abuse, and murder? Why is or isn't it 'entertaining'? Why choose that when there are other choices available?
 
[MENTION=4956]charlene[/MENTION]

Catharsis

Im sure it is that for some situations.

I find music effective in that way. I had issues with repressed emotion for most of my life, and music and art were some of the few ways that i was able to release that energy. I only learnt to stop repressing my emotions about 2 or so years ago, and still occasionaly forget that i dont have to repress them.
 
I dont understand what you are saying or what your question is. Could you please elaborate?

Wanting to control people and the environment through the application of totalitarian and fascist ideology is not the same as wanting to contol the water temperature in the shower, or the heat on the stove, or wanting to choose what you have for dinner, or what movie you will watch, or what videogame you will buy.
Is that what you were getting at?

There is a need to control that stems directly from fear, and this involves trying to gain a sense of power through disempowering or eliminating the 'other' or the object of fear. In a social context this requires some form of fascism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, martial rule, censorship
This can be contrasted with being deliberate, focused, and intentional....exercising you personal power and agency to make choices in order to actively create situations, environments and interactions that are meaningful, beneficial, and pleasing to you. This does not require the desire to disempower anyone else, or to undemocratically enforce an environment or situation on people. In a social context, this requires democracy, social and economic mobility, freedom of speech and expression, transparent judiciary, accountability

Also there is self control....where the individual takes responsibility for thoughts, emotions, and actions, and is thus empowered through this sense of personal responsibility.

Why do people make the choices that they do? All decisions are powerful, because they are an avowal of what we choose to focus on, what we give attention, energy, time, money, and mindspace to....basically what we want to empower and potentially manifest into physicality. Our choices define what we want in life.

Interestingly....and i ask this not necessarily expecting any answer....potentially a rhetorical question....why do people choose to invent, create, produce, fund, watch, 'play', and buy media that has violence, theft, rape, abuse, and murder? Why is or isn't it 'entertaining'? Why choose that when there are other choices available?

My thoughts in my answer revolved around politics. Some people indicating one side or the other does things in an effort to control for controls sake and out of fear. IE we only go to war out of fear. We only want to have guns out of fear etc...
 
My thoughts in my answer revolved around politics. Some people indicating one side or the other does things in an effort to control for controls sake and out of fear. IE we only go to war out of fear. We only want to have guns out of fear etc...

I see what you mean.
I think in political terms....it could be applied from either angle. Going to war out of fear, not wanting to go to war out of fear. Wanting to have guns out of fear, wanting to ban guns out of fear. Either way, i think that the approach- totalitarian and closed versus democratic and transparent is where that fear becomes relevant in political terms.
 
I have not bought a gun out of fear. I wanted to go into Iraq because Saddam Hussein was paying parents to have their children wear bomb belts to kill Israelis, among other things. The war machine just kept on going, though. The weapons moved into Syria exist.
I did not fear the man.

Maybe people find someone to live with out of fear of being alone.

Bomb makers using their weapons on civilians should meet with the same fate at SH.
 
I have not bought a gun out of fear. I wanted to go into Iraq because Saddam Hussein was paying parents to have their children wear bomb belts to kill Israelis, among other things. The war machine just kept on going, though. The weapons moved into Syria exist.
I did not fear the man.

Maybe people find someone to live with out of fear of being alone.

Bomb makers using their weapons on civilians should meet with the same fate at SH.


Except it wasn’t Saddam…it has always been Saudi Arabia.
I mean, just recently they’ve sent some of their death row prisoners to go fight in Syria…who’s side are they going to join if they get a chance to escape I wonder?
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-fight-syria-commute-death-sentences/1852629/
I’m really tired of the BS rhetoric that Iraq was this terrible country that deserved to be “liberated” by the US.
Nonsense, the world was lied to by the Bush admin.
Not saying Saddam was a swell guy…please don’t put words in my mouth. I can’t say that he will be greatly missed, but I think as far as terrorism and terrorist threats go - Saudi Arabia still has yet to fully be discussed in this thread topic.

That’s the snake’s head, but they line our pockets nicely - so we turn a blind eye (at least until the next group of terrorists sponsored and trained there blows something up).
 
[video=youtube;lkRpAK3OtqQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lkRpAK3OtqQ[/video]

No country For Anyone Not Already Here


 
12279216_10153817319579255_6031864756089795037_n.jpg
 
Seems like they all have a theme…but then again…that would be unfairly judging an entire religion.
What was that saying?…don’t let your religious convictions prevent you from doing the right thing.

30 of the Most Violent Exhortations from the Bible, Torah and Quran

How well do you know your Holy Books?

screen_shot_2014-10-23_at_1.30.53_pm.png



The world has watched in horror while members of ISIS justify the next mass murder or icy execution with words from the Quran, followed by shouts of Allahu Akbar–God is the greatest!

If beliefs have any power whatsoever to drive behavior–and as a psychologist I think they do–there can be little doubt that the Quran’s many endorsements of violence play a role in how exactly ISIS has chosen to pursue religious and political dominion.


At the same time, it should be equally clear a sacred text filled with violence is insufficient to trigger mass brutality unless other conditions are present as well. Culture, empathy, education and empowerment–and other factors scholars understand only in part–appear to have a protective influence, safeguarding even most fundamentalists against the worst teachings of their own tradition.

We know this in part because the Bible contains commandments and stories that are as horrific as those being used to justify butchery in Iraq and Syria.

The following 30 violent exhortations are drawn from Jewish, Christian and Muslim scriptures.

The generic word "God" is used for all deity names, and names of places or people have been replaced with generic terms.
How well do you know your Torah, Bible or Quran and Hadith?

Can you tell which is which?
Give it a try and then check the key at the bottom.

1. Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the [holy man] who represents God must be put to death.
Such evil must be purged.

2. I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes.

3. I will fill your mountains with the dead.
Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword.
I will make you desolate forever.
Your cities will never be rebuilt.
Then you will know that I am God.

4. Fight them until there is no more [disbelief or worshipping of other gods] and worship is for God alone.

5. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother-in-law.
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

6. Whoso fighteth in the way of God, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

7. Make ready to slaughter [the infidel’s] sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.

8. [God’s messenger]... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger.
The [holy man] replied, "They [women and children] are from them [unbelievers]."

9. Then I heard God say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all — old and young, girls and women and little children.”

10. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.
Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

11. Keep [my holiday], for it is holy.
Anyone who desecrates it must die.

12. The punishment of those who wage war against God and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.

13. If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.

14. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land...

15. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

16. I shall terrorize the [heathens].
So wound their bodies and incapacitate them, because they oppose God and his apostle.

17. A [holy man’s] daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.

18. So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.

19. Everyone who would not seek God was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

20. And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.

21. But if [a girl wasn't a virgin on her wedding night] and evidence of the girl's virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her father’s house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against God’s people by her unchasteness in her father's house.
Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.

22. The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say,
"O [believer]! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

23. If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.
Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.

24. God’s Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but God."

25. Cursed be he who does God’s work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.

26. God said, "A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. [Prophet], you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But God desires killing them to manifest the religion."

27. Anyone who blasphemes God’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of [believers].

28. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action.
If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm.
Invite them to (accept) [your religion]; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them...
If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them [a tax].
If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands.
If they refuse to pay the tax, seek God's help and fight them.

29. Anyone else who goes too near the [Holy Place] will be executed.

30. Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us.

Is the Quran more violent than the Bible?
The question is hard to answer.

A tally at the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible counts 842 violent or cruel passages in the Bible as compared to 333 in the Quran.
That said, the Bible is a much thicker tome, and even though the New Testament endorses and adds to the violence in the Old, when percentages are compared, the Quran comes out ahead.

In addition, the kinds of cruelty and violence vary as do the perpetrator and victim and the extent to which any verse can be interpreted as divine sanction for the behavior in question.

Either way, this short test offers an illustrative sample from each sacred text.

Bible and Quran believers who recognize verses in this list will no doubt protest that they have been taken out of context, as indeed they have.

I think the appropriate response to such a complaint is a question: What context, exactly, would make these verses uplifting, inspiring or worthy of praise?
In what context are passages like these some of the most important and holy guidance that the creator of the universe might think to impart to humankind?

In what context is a book that contains these passages and many, many more like them the apogee of divine goodness and timeless wisdom?

Members of each Abrahamic tradition are quick to point out the rational and moral flaws in the others.

I wonder sometimes, what this world might be like if they were as quick to examine the flaws in their own.

__________________________
Key: Odd numbered quotes are from the Bible, even numbers from the Quran or Hadith. 1. Deuteronomy17:12 NLT; 2. Bukhari 11:626; 3. Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT; 4. Quran 2:193; 5. Matthew 10:34-35; 6. Quran 4:74; 7.Isaiah 14:21 NAB; 8. Bukhari 52:256; 9. Ezekiel 9:5 NLT; 10. Quran 8:12; 11. Exodus 31:12-15 NLT; 12. Quran5:33; 13. Leviticus 20:10 NLT; 14. Quran 8:67; 15. Numbers 31: 17-18 KJV; 16. Quran 8:12; 17. Leviticus 21:9 NAB; 18. Quran 9:5; 19. 2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB; 20. Quran 17:16; 21. Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB; 22.Bukhari 52:177; 23. Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB; 24. Bukhari 8:387; 25. Jeremiah 48:10 NAB; 26. Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 484; 27. Leviticus 24:16 NLT; 28. Muslim 19:4294; 29. Numbers 1: 51 NLT; 30. Tabari 9:69

Valerie Tarico is a psychologist and writer in Seattle, Washington and the founder of Wisdom Commons.
She is the author of "Trusting Doubt: A Former Evangelical Looks at Old Beliefs in a New Light" and "Deas and Other Imaginings."
Her articles can be found at Awaypoint.Wordpress.com.

 
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Seems like they all have a theme…but then again…that would be unfairly judging an entire religion.
What was that saying?…don’t let your religious convictions prevent you from doing the right thing.

30 of the Most Violent Exhortations from the Bible, Torah and Quran

How well do you know your Holy Books?

screen_shot_2014-10-23_at_1.30.53_pm.png



The world has watched in horror while members of ISIS justify the next mass murder or icy execution with words from the Quran, followed by shouts of Allahu Akbar–God is the greatest!

If beliefs have any power whatsoever to drive behavior–and as a psychologist I think they do–there can be little doubt that the Quran’s many endorsements of violence play a role in how exactly ISIS has chosen to pursue religious and political dominion.


At the same time, it should be equally clear a sacred text filled with violence is insufficient to trigger mass brutality unless other conditions are present as well. Culture, empathy, education and empowerment–and other factors scholars understand only in part–appear to have a protective influence, safeguarding even most fundamentalists against the worst teachings of their own tradition.

We know this in part because the Bible contains commandments and stories that are as horrific as those being used to justify butchery in Iraq and Syria.

The following 30 violent exhortations are drawn from Jewish, Christian and Muslim scriptures.

The generic word "God" is used for all deity names, and names of places or people have been replaced with generic terms.
How well do you know your Torah, Bible or Quran and Hadith?

Can you tell which is which?
Give it a try and then check the key at the bottom.

1. Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the [holy man] who represents God must be put to death.
Such evil must be purged.

2. I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes.

3. I will fill your mountains with the dead.
Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword.
I will make you desolate forever.
Your cities will never be rebuilt.
Then you will know that I am God.

4. Fight them until there is no more [disbelief or worshipping of other gods] and worship is for God alone.

5. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother-in-law.
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

6. Whoso fighteth in the way of God, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

7. Make ready to slaughter [the infidel’s] sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.

8. [God’s messenger]... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger.
The [holy man] replied, "They [women and children] are from them [unbelievers]."

9. Then I heard God say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all — old and young, girls and women and little children.”

10. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.
Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

11. Keep [my holiday], for it is holy.
Anyone who desecrates it must die.

12. The punishment of those who wage war against God and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.

13. If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.

14. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land...

15. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

16. I shall terrorize the [heathens].
So wound their bodies and incapacitate them, because they oppose God and his apostle.

17. A [holy man’s] daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.

18. So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.

19. Everyone who would not seek God was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

20. And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.

21. But if [a girl wasn't a virgin on her wedding night] and evidence of the girl's virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her father’s house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against God’s people by her unchasteness in her father's house.
Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.

22. The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say,
"O [believer]! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

23. If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.
Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.

24. God’s Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but God."

25. Cursed be he who does God’s work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.

26. God said, "A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. [Prophet], you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But God desires killing them to manifest the religion."

27. Anyone who blasphemes God’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of [believers].

28. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action.
If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm.
Invite them to (accept) [your religion]; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them...
If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them [a tax].
If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands.
If they refuse to pay the tax, seek God's help and fight them.

29. Anyone else who goes too near the [Holy Place] will be executed.

30. Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us.

Is the Quran more violent than the Bible?
The question is hard to answer.

A tally at the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible counts 842 violent or cruel passages in the Bible as compared to 333 in the Quran.
That said, the Bible is a much thicker tome, and even though the New Testament endorses and adds to the violence in the Old, when percentages are compared, the Quran comes out ahead.

In addition, the kinds of cruelty and violence vary as do the perpetrator and victim and the extent to which any verse can be interpreted as divine sanction for the behavior in question.

Either way, this short test offers an illustrative sample from each sacred text.

Bible and Quran believers who recognize verses in this list will no doubt protest that they have been taken out of context, as indeed they have.

I think the appropriate response to such a complaint is a question: What context, exactly, would make these verses uplifting, inspiring or worthy of praise?
In what context are passages like these some of the most important and holy guidance that the creator of the universe might think to impart to humankind?

In what context is a book that contains these passages and many, many more like them the apogee of divine goodness and timeless wisdom?

Members of each Abrahamic tradition are quick to point out the rational and moral flaws in the others.

I wonder sometimes, what this world might be like if they were as quick to examine the flaws in their own.

__________________________
Key: Odd numbered quotes are from the Bible, even numbers from the Quran or Hadith. 1. Deuteronomy17:12 NLT; 2. Bukhari 11:626; 3. Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT; 4. Quran 2:193; 5. Matthew 10:34-35; 6. Quran 4:74; 7.Isaiah 14:21 NAB; 8. Bukhari 52:256; 9. Ezekiel 9:5 NLT; 10. Quran 8:12; 11. Exodus 31:12-15 NLT; 12. Quran5:33; 13. Leviticus 20:10 NLT; 14. Quran 8:67; 15. Numbers 31: 17-18 KJV; 16. Quran 8:12; 17. Leviticus 21:9 NAB; 18. Quran 9:5; 19. 2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB; 20. Quran 17:16; 21. Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB; 22.Bukhari 52:177; 23. Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB; 24. Bukhari 8:387; 25. Jeremiah 48:10 NAB; 26. Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 484; 27. Leviticus 24:16 NLT; 28. Muslim 19:4294; 29. Numbers 1: 51 NLT; 30. Tabari 9:69

Valerie Tarico is a psychologist and writer in Seattle, Washington and the founder of Wisdom Commons.
She is the author of "Trusting Doubt: A Former Evangelical Looks at Old Beliefs in a New Light" and "Deas and Other Imaginings."
Her articles can be found at Awaypoint.Wordpress.com.

Had a quick look at the New Testament list.

A heard of animals rushing into water and drowning; and plants being uprooted are counted as violence.
 
Had a quick look at the New Testament list.

A heard of animals rushing into water and drowning; and plants being uprooted are counted as violence.
Yes, but so are stonings and slavery.
Just like many other things are taken out of context.

Listen, I’m not here voicing my opinion and posting links to stories that I think are relevant to try and prove anyone wrong or anything of the sort.
I am not trying to “win” this conversation or “debate” for some egotistic reason.
I think what happened and continues to happen is a tragedy that we should try and not repeat and perpetuate.

Still pushing for peace, still pushing for diplomacy, still pushing for less hate, fear, etc.

I’ll do it my way, you do it your way.
If you disagree with my personal politics then that’s okay Flavus…I don’t agree with most of yours.
I think we all want to see peaceful resolutions to all that is happening…but perhaps I’m wrong…maybe “an eye for an eye” is still what it’s about?
*Sigh*
“An eye for an eye, leaves the whoe world blind.” ~ Dalai Lama
 
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Yes, but so are stonings and slavery.
Just like many other things are taken out of context.

Listen, I’m not here voicing my opinion and posting links to stories that I think are relevant to try and prove anyone wrong or anything of the sort.
I am not trying to “win” this conversation or “debate” for some egotistic reason.
I think what happened and continues to happen is a tragedy that we should try and not repeat and perpetuate.

Still pushing for peace, still pushing for diplomacy, still pushing for less hate, fear, etc.

I’ll do it my way, you do it your way.
If you disagree with my personal politics then that’s okay Flavus…I don’t agree with most of yours.
I think we all want to see peaceful resolutions to all that is happening…but perhaps I’m wrong…maybe “an eye for an eye” is still what it’s about?
*Sigh*
“An eye for an eye, leaves the whole world blind.” ~ Dalai Lama

No, I don't think retribution/eye-for-eye helps anything.

I just think all Muslims should abandon Islam and throw off that oppressive culture/mindset, with Islam being outlawed to boot, just to stop violent types re-adopting it later. I think it would make the world a much better place for everyone to live in (including people who at present identify as Muslim).
 
No, I don't think retribution/eye-for-eye helps anything.

I just think all Muslims should abandon Islam and throw off that oppressive culture/mindset, with Islam being outlawed to boot, just to stop violent types re-adopting it later. I think it would make the world a much better place for everyone to live in (including people who at present identify as Muslim).


Then you should do away with all religions Flavus not just Muslims.
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

People are evil…the interpretations of their “holy books” can be misguided and evil.
There is a great deal of the old testament that is ignored by modern christians such as stoning people to death, or owning slaves.
People eat pork and shellfish though the Bible expressly forbids it.

In many respects the Muslim faith is stuck in the 7th century, but things are rapidly changing with the interconnectedness the internet brings.
I don’t view ISIS or terrorists as anything but the last gasps of a culture that finds it must change or face being ostracized by the world court of opinion.

I’m sorry, but I will never support your stance that the world would be much better off with Islam outlawed…I see that as fuel to stoke the fires of hatred and separation that already exist.

It’s okay for us to disagree man, like I said - I’m not here to “win” any point.
 
Then you should do away with all religions Flavus not just Muslims.
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

People are evil…the interpretations of their “holy books” can be misguided and evil.
There is a great deal of the old testament that is ignored by modern christians such as stoning people to death, or owning slaves.
People eat pork and shellfish though the Bible expressly forbids it.

In many respects the Muslim faith is stuck in the 7th century, but things are rapidly changing with the interconnectedness the internet brings.
I don’t view ISIS or terrorists as anything but the last gasps of a culture that finds it must change or face being ostracized by the world court of opinion.

I’m sorry, but I will never support your stance that the world would be much better off with Islam outlawed…I see that as fuel to stoke the fires of hatred and separation that already exist.

It’s okay for us to disagree man, like I said - I’m not here to “win” any point.
Since you raise it, Christian Scriptures do deal with things like stonings (let he who is without sin cast the first stone...etc.); but however many "violent" passages there may be (including the uprooting of plants - in the source you posted a reference to), there is obviously sufficient interpretive material there as well, so that you don't ever get Christians stoning/killing/smiting/etc. The most common interpretive principle is often called 'allegory'.

Islam is not like this. Stoning, amputation of limbs for theft, beheadings are commonplace by ordinary Muslim folk - and in Islamic countries - by commonplace judicial/police folk. (And such events are reported in local newspapers with as much fanfare as our newspapers report jail sentences).

I know it's ok for me to disagree with you - and I do. I do not hold an ideology which refuses to consider any one thing/system/religion/law/morals/etc. as anything but completely equal and as good as all others.

I think Islam is a bad religion, which makes sacred, what anyone outside that mindwash would consider barbaric.
To illustrate the point: the response to adultery in Islam is the stoning of the married adulterer; in Christianity it is forgiveness, with the admonition to sin no more.
The fact that many Muslims might not stone an adulterer is as much an example of them not following their religion, as failure to forgive is an example of a Christian not following his. Regardless of whether an individual follows their religion closely, forgiveness is better than punishment.


The same goes for historic examples of bad Christians - the Crusades are so berated, at least in part, because they went against the principles of Christianity (insofar as they exceeded the necessary defense of innocents being slaughtered by the Muslim invaders of Jerusalem); but these non-Christian excesses are not condemned by Islam, but promoted by it. Similarly, the disgusting occurrence of abuse of minors among some priests is especially galling because it is so un-Christian; but Muslim men are permitted sex with minors - their "prophet" married a 6 year old and consummated it when she was 9 years old.
 
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Assad has been killing civilians that do not like him by the tens of thousands. Russia has killed as many in the last few days, with maybe half being ISIS-affiliated cities. People will retaliate when others have gone too far.

I think the Crusades was an example of this. Look at the capabilities of Christian Russia when messed with. They have been fighting an unnamed war, as have others, for a long time. There is a big difference in an action and a reaction. There are also excuses used when waging wars. Syria and Assad at all costs for Russia, because they have a Mediterranean port there. Russians loading the bombs are writing "For Paris" and such on the bombs. They should read: "For Our Port."

The world is at war with whatever they want to call it. There are good people that mean well in most all religions. Even so, we are at war. We need to thank those that have made it happen so easily.
 
Since you raise it, Christian Scriptures do deal with things like stonings (let he who is without sin cast the first stone...etc.); but however many "violent" passages there may be (including the uprooting of plants - in the source you posted a reference to), there is obviously sufficient interpretive material there as well, so that you don't ever get Christians stoning/killing/smiting/etc. The most common interpretive principle is often called 'allegory'.

Umm…there are some very literal Biblical commandments to kill people in various ways for various reasons, most of which we would consider barbaric by today’s standards.

Islam is not like this. Stoning, amputation of limbs for theft, beheadings are commonplace by ordinary Muslim folk - and in Islamic countries - by commonplace judicial/police folk. (And such events are reported in local newspapers with as much fanfare as our newspapers report jail sentences).
I don’t care who did what shitty thing to their fellow human being last, the Christians or the Muslims…who cares? It’s like playing tag…”not it!”.
They are all assholes…anyone who wants to force other people to follow laws based on theologic BS is asking for an unjust system.


I know it's ok for me to disagree with you - and I do. I do not hold an ideology which refuses to consider any one thing/system/religion/law/morals/etc. as anything but completely equal and as good as all others.

I do not hold an ideology that refuses to consider any one thing/system/religion/law/morals/etc. as anything but completely equal and as good as the others - don’t put words in my mouth, I never said that.

Who is the judge firstly - you? Fuck that.


I think Islam is a bad religion, which makes sacred, what anyone outside that mindwash would consider barbaric.
To illustrate the point: the response to adultery in Islam is the stoning of the married adulterer; in Christianity it is forgiveness, with the admonition to sin no more.
The fact that many Muslims might not stone an adulterer is as much an example of them not following their religion, as failure to forgive is an example of a Christian not following his. Regardless of whether an individual follows their religion closely, forgiveness is better than punishment.

That is your own “mind-washed” opinion and you are welcome to have it, just as I am welcome to have my own and to carry on as I best see fit without further disparaging and pessimistic banter from you thanks.

The same goes for historic examples of bad Christians - the Crusades are so berated, at least in part, because they went against the principles of Christianity (insofar as they exceeded the necessary defense of innocents being slaughtered by the Muslim invaders of Jerusalem); but these non-Christian excesses are not condemned by Islam, but promoted by it. Similarly, the disgusting occurrence of abuse of minors among some priests is especially galling because it is so un-Christian; but Muslim men are permitted sex with minors - their "prophet" married a 6 year old and consummated it when she was 9 years old.

You didn’t even read through the website did you?
Here’s the post again for you - http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

You seem to think of all Muslims as being the same powder keg waiting for a fuse…and I don’t see that as reality.
The US is a much better example of a powder keg.

Still not scared of the terrorists.
Still not scared of Ebola.
Or having my guns taken away.
Or getting hit by lightening, or attacked by a shark.
Hell…I can even compose myself every day (and it’s hard) to drive the car down the highway…whoa!!
Daaaangerous!
 
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