Pro-life or Pro-choice?

flower said:
Umm... I don't know really. I guess talking about suicide in general makes me a bit uncomfortable so I leave the talk about it to that. Hope you understand!
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... and abortion doesn't? My simple point ... Is if you stop somebody from committing suicide your interfering with what they want to do with there body.
 
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Ifur said:
You may think this is an argument from absurdity, and therefore rhetorical.
Let's look at the strength of your argument, not interested in your convictions here.

You are comparing animal abuse to aborting a fetus before it qualifies as "life".
A yard is not comparable to a womb, it's also not something a man can own or have a say in.
An abortion procedure don't involve beating a womb with a fetus, while ignoring the complains of the woman.
That has not stopped people to attempt just that due to religious convictions and concerns about social consequences.

If the yard here is the womb of a woman, reason extends from added legal concerns that self injury involves her family and not the family of the fetus.

I don't think you should attempt further legal or moral arguments, as there seems to be a rather severe limitation between personal concerns and thoughts for others, and actual concerns and circumstances of others that lend itself to objective arguments and recognising that there is a difference where moral and ethical concerns stemming from tradition, culture philosophy and religious views does not work as a substitute to independent thought and empathy that can be said to have an objective nature for addressing the point of views, concerns and needs of others.
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Hey, that's cool, but if you can't convince me of your point. I doubt you'll convince anyone else. If you can't convince anyone else, clinics will continue to be shutdown. Abortions will continue to be done and woman will continue to choose to have them, but it will be very difficult. So ball is in your court.
 
Emanuel Goldstein said:
Hey, that's cool, but if you can't convince me of your point.
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Personally disagree, who do you think you are?

I doubt you'll convince anyone else. If you can't convince anyone else, clinics will continue to be shutdown.
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Open or closed? If you personally know those involved, I will have to insist on the death penalty for being wrong.

Abortions will continue to be done and woman will continue to choose to have them, but it will be very difficult. So ball is in your court.
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What balls? It's possible within theory they could be pregnant and need all of the above?

Are you worried about being thrown into some river before even having gotten a bit of titty? The milk won't be coming from my balls, and I may not want you as my own.
 
Emanuel Goldstein said:
... and abortion doesn't? My simple point ... Is if you stop somebody from committing suicide your interfering with what they want to do with there body.
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Considering yourself aborted, you clearly want my abuse.

(haha, so I am a INTJ that has gotten INTJ-Open to run and scream, personal favourite i stating that god is evil, and close to a hundred emails later involving factual comments from bible scholars, I won.).

So let's be clear, I'd win this argument against the Vatican, I recommend being diplomatic and requesting empathy -- those with a Te inclination on this topic will have none. Your greatest loss in life is not being short of watching a sister or close relative tossing a fetus in a lake to drown from her knowing herself and the father and the circumstance?

If you can pay for something better, you can also risk more and live harder.

(a current interest of mine is the overlap of the verbal and the non-verbal, you ride and you slide; those the women ride or you slide? -- the risks involved are partly social and sexual -- chances are less than 25% if you are a man, and women know their cycle so they have a day and week to count prior. Above this there are also accidents.... You were saying something? Let's hope it doesn't involve gracing anyone with your seed just to have a fetus thrown at your house.)
 
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I'm pro-choice. In fact, I think that our current laws are lacking in some pretty important areas. For example, where is the man's right to choose? The woman can decide to abort or not abort a baby at her convenience. Shouldn't men also have a say in the matter?

Not necessarily at abortion though, because it is the woman's body, but maybe afterwards? For example, if a man divorces his wife, he shouldn't have to worry about child support. Many homeless men in America are actually running from child support, and it is essentially ending their opportunities to pursue careers and be successful. So I think that when a man divorces his wife he should have the option to terminate their child. This way, he won't have the burden of helping provide for the child he is leaving behind, and the woman won't be left with any financial strain. In this way, they are both free to get on with their lives and pursue meaningful careers. Win win.
 
Ifur said:
I got this, recommend looking away; I got this however....
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Well... You've made some good arguments and they do deserve a reply and I do so without prejudice...

The question is ... is life significant or insignificant... death penalty, masturbation, abortion, swatting a fly that invades your home, police killing vagrants and young black men in the street, politicians & royalty killing and eating babies.

Are you pro-life or anti-life?

Do I believe that masturbation is wrong... yes... it is wasting of life, however insignificant... is man weak? Yes... they do it anyway....

Do people believe in the death penalty... sometimes... but that life is insignificant, because it did something bad and wrong and therefore must be destroyed...

but men are weak... it makes their life easier to destroy other life.

do you get a ugly feeling in the pit of your stomach when you see a child gleefully stepping on bugs and laughing maniacally?

I do... why is that... because we realize that all life is precious, but we have fallen to far to see it and that's why we argue that the death penalty is wrong.

The argument is ...

Is taking life... any life ... no matter how insignificant wrong... and if you believe that it is not then you have to believe in masturbation, death penalty, etc etc....

I say that taking of life any life is wrong... but I am weak... men are weak and do it any way...

but I strive to be a better person... I try not to kill the fly, I try not to eat meat because meat is murder, people are weak and can't hold up the whole world...

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

I believe you are saying that yeah... abortion is bad, but you should stop killing flies first... or stop masturbating first...

The difference is... people choose where they want to try and start being a better person... some people choose to stop abortion...

So the opposite of what you say is also true... we should allow lots of abortions, kill all the flies, eat all the meat, destroy the oceans because who cares about the animals in the oceans... their life is insignificant... and while we are at it destroy the trees, because it's only a tree... and lets kill the bees... cause they sting... and the birds because their singing wakes me up in the morning....

If you play with the devil's toys you will come, by degrees, to wield his sword...

so enjoy your play date....
 
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Emanuel Goldstein said:
Well... You've made some good arguments and they do deserve a reply and I do so without prejudice...

The question is ... is life significant or insignificant... death penalty, masturbation, abortion, swatting a fly that invades your home, police killing vagrants and young black men in the street, politicians & royalty killing and eating babies.

Are you pro-life or anti-life?

Do I believe that masturbation is wrong... yes... it is wasting of life, however insignificant... is man weak? Yes... they do it anyway....

Do people believe in the death penalty... sometimes... but that life is insignificant, because it did something bad and wrong and therefore must be destroyed...

but men are weak... it makes their life easier to destroy other life.

do you get a ugly feeling in the pit of your stomach when you see a child gleefully stepping on bugs and laughing maniacally?

I do... why is that... because we realize that all life is precious, but we have fallen to far to see it and that's why we argue that the death penalty is wrong.

The argument is ...

Is taking life... any life ... no matter how insignificant wrong... and if you believe that it is not then you have to believe in masturbation, death penalty, etc etc....

I say that taking of life any life is wrong... but I am weak... men are weak and do it any way...

but I strive to be a better person... I try not to kill the fly, I try not to eat meat because meat is murder, people are weak and can't hold up the whole world...

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

I believe you are saying that yeah... abortion is bad, but you should stop killing flies first... or stop masturbating first...

The difference is... people choose where they want to try and start being a better person... some people choose to stop abortion...

So the opposite of what you say is also true... we should allow lots of abortions, kill all the flies, eat all the meat, destroy the oceans because who cares about the animals in the oceans... their life is insignificant... and while we are at it destroy the trees, because it's only a tree... and lets kill the bees... cause they sting... and the birds because their singing wakes me up in the morning....

If you play with the devil's toys you will come, by degrees, to wield his sword...

so enjoy your play date....
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While I appreciate interest in these matters and to discuss them, this would be considered a black and white attitude by most.

The planet is the life of one, abort the pesky critters that are killing it.
 
Emanuel Goldstein said:
Well... You've made some good arguments and they do deserve a reply and I do so without prejudice...

The question is ... is life significant or insignificant... death penalty, masturbation, abortion, swatting a fly that invades your home, police killing vagrants and young black men in the street, politicians & royalty killing and eating babies.

Are you pro-life or anti-life?

Do I believe that masturbation is wrong... yes... it is wasting of life, however insignificant... is man weak? Yes... they do it anyway....

Do people believe in the death penalty... sometimes... but that life is insignificant, because it did something bad and wrong and therefore must be destroyed...

but men are weak... it makes their life easier to destroy other life.

do you get a ugly feeling in the pit of your stomach when you see a child gleefully stepping on bugs and laughing maniacally?

I do... why is that... because we realize that all life is precious, but we have fallen to far to see it and that's why we argue that the death penalty is wrong.

The argument is ...

Is taking life... any life ... no matter how insignificant wrong... and if you believe that it is not then you have to believe in masturbation, death penalty, etc etc....

I say that taking of life any life is wrong... but I am weak... men are weak and do it any way...

but I strive to be a better person... I try not to kill the fly, I try not to eat meat because meat is murder, people are weak and can't hold up the whole world...

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...

I believe you are saying that yeah... abortion is bad, but you should stop killing flies first... or stop masturbating first...

The difference is... people choose where they want to try and start being a better person... some people choose to stop abortion...

So the opposite of what you say is also true... we should allow lots of abortions, kill all the flies, eat all the meat, destroy the oceans because who cares about the animals in the oceans... their life is insignificant... and while we are at it destroy the trees, because it's only a tree... and lets kill the bees... cause they sting... and the birds because their singing wakes me up in the morning....

If you play with the devil's toys you will come, by degrees, to wield his sword...

so enjoy your play date....
Click to expand...

No antibiotics for you then.
 
Ifur said:
While I appreciate interest in these matters and to discuss them, this would be considered a black and white attitude by most.

The planet is the life of one, abort the pesky critters that are killing it.
Click to expand...

Not really... People don't like doing hard things... So they take the path of least resistance. It may seem black and white but while we abhor the thought of killing other creatures in the name of convenience and comfort... Yet I saw a based on reality movie where Tibetan monks removed all the earthworms and moved them to a safe location so they wouldn't kill any while working... On order of the Dali Lama... That is dedication.

Life seems to be only as important as it's cuteness or usefulness... Other then that... We pretty much discard it or kill it...

...honestly though... I got no dog in this fight... I'm content to let history move on by... While I do believe life is important... I look at the taking of life in the same way I see someone missing out on a good schooling opportunity... Emphasise on good...

I have no strong opinion on the subject... I just like to make people think once in a while... I'm done now
 
Infjente said:
No antibiotics for you then.
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I'm fine with that their effectiveness is questionable now anyway... Soon no antibiotics for you or you or you...

Besides they pump meat with so much antibiotics you have to buy special meat NOT given antibiotics at a higher price...

I think I'll be OK...
 
John K said:
I very much agree with this Misty - you have put it really well.

The issue seems to hinge on determining when a fetus becomes a human being - those who support abortion don't believe they are killing a person. To me, their way of determining when the transition to person happens seems just as much based on belief - a secular belief - as any religious point of view. I must say when we lost a child to miscarriage at 12 weeks it felt like we lost someone, not something - I still think about him or her with deep sadness 40 odd years later.

I guess my community perspective is that I respect the rights of others to have different views and feelings to mine, and it's the price we pay for democracy that minorities don't dictate to the majority. Whatever way the law goes on this issue, there will be a lot of people whose consciences are profundly impacted - whether through tighter or looser abortion rules. I do feel strongly though that a view should not be discounted just because it is rooted in a religious conviction. Most strong views are rooted in equally powerful convictions and I don't see why a secular faith should outweigh a religious one.
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This is pretty much my belief about it. <3 I abhor later term abortions. I have studied pregnancy a lot, it's one of my favorite topics in the medical field. Since there is no way for sure to know when the embryo starts to become aware, I don't think I could have an abortion, but if I were to consider it, it would have to be before 8 weeks. Just my opinion. :)
 
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