Pro-life or Pro-choice?

[Misty]

I acknowledge that. I don't know what the stats are on adoptions vs abortions, but I am just not comfortable with the idea of taking that choice away from women, the choice itself being the point of contention.

Yes, I can understand this thought process as a line of care for a woman's comfort. But when a woman's temporary discomfort becomes more important than the life of another ( possibly another future woman ) it is truly sad and frankly, wrong. I simply feel that the life of the child is considered "less than" in abortion. This 'fetus' is a human too who gets zero vote as to whether or not it receives a death sentence for a crime he or she did not commit.

I'm going to respectfully bow out of this thread, as my opinion is likely not well tolerated, and I am a fire type, so me unwatching it and doing some work is likely the most advantageous choice for me now. Not to mention, I really have to get busy. But thanks for respectfully debating this topic with me. I'm sure everyone in here is coming from a good place & from the heart. But so am I. ❤

EDIT: Yeah, and the father's right? His is equal to the mothers right, imho. I mean wow, flip the script and I ( who have endured 3 stillbirths ) am being told by the man that 'he' has decided 'we're going to kill my child, because ( in this hypothetical alternate universe ) men had the final say... I would riot. I feel so sorry for men in this way. I mean.. just being forced to sit there and take it while someone else kills their baby. It's barbaric.

 

[Sloe Djinn]

Yes, I can understand this thought process as a line of care for a woman's comfort. But when a woman's temporary discomfort becomes more important than the life of another ( possibly another future woman ) it is truly sad and frankly, wrong. I simply feel that the life of the child is considered "less than" in abortion. This 'fetus' is a human too who gets zero vote as to whether or not it receives a death sentence for a crime he or she did not commit.

I'm going to respectfully bow out of this thread, as my opinion is likely not well tolerated, and I am a fire type, so me unwatching it and doing some work is likely the most advantageous choice for me now. Not to mention, I really have to get busy. But thanks for respectfully debating this topic with me. I'm sure everyone in here is coming from a good place & from the heart. But so am I. ❤

No problem. We may differ in our opinions but how we handle those differences says a lot. You have my respect for what little it's worth.

 

[Misty]

No problem. We may differ in our opinions but how we handle those differences says a lot. You have my respect for what little it's worth.

It's not worth little! It's worth lots.. And thanks..

 

[Lady Jolanda]

Ah, the magic of words.
"Pro life". Making the other side sound like "Anti life", aka murderers.
"Pro choice". Making the other side sound like "Anti choice", aka controlling abusers.
So much for morality lol.

Is anyone pro-choice for fathers? That's a more interesting question for me. Do those fuckers get a say in anything?

I want this to be the case, except biology gets in the way. The second artificial wombs are developed, men should have a say.

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

Ah, the magic of words.
"Pro life". Making the other side sound like "Anti life", aka murderers.
"Pro choice". Making the other side sound like "Anti choice", aka controlling abusers.
So much for morality lol.

agreeeeed

I want this to be the case, except biology gets in the way. The second artificial wombs are developed, men should have a say.

It is your duty as an ENTP to make this happen

 

[John K]

So, the question says it all. Why you support one of the two and why? And what is solution according to you

This is such a difficult question to respond to because it's so emotive. I'm a Roman Catholic, and we believe that someone becomes a person at conception so abortion is always the killing of a person. Many of you will not agree with this because you will have a different idea of when a fetus becomes a human being. I support your personal decision because we all have to form our own views on morality - if you think that we are not human until, say 22 weeks, then fine. After that though you will kill a person according to your own perspective if you abort.

It isn't as simple as this is it? My dad died of dementia and he wasn't really a complete person for maybe a year before he died. He was almost as completely dependent on others as a fetus is on its mother. He gave me a lot of emotional trouble and grief during this time - should that have given me the right to end his life? Would that not have been kinder for him and easier for me?

No, it's not really the same as a mother carrying a child because their biology is so interconnected. But - we all only have the one chance at life and it is an incredibly precious thing. Does anyone have the right to end the life of another person even before it has started properly? My heart is torn open here for the women who are carrying children and are so injured by it - but maybe it isn't right to say they should be in control of their own bodies because while they are carrying another person it isn't just their body but someone else's as well.

I would never condemn someone who has an abortion under the extremes of stress. I do condemn anyone who uses abortion as a lazy and selfish form of contraception - this is evil * in my view.

This is probably all academic anyway because the way technology is going I'm sure that fetuses will survive in vitro from conception sometime in the next 100 years or so - so abortion will be replaced by the expression of the fetus, which will be gestated outside the womb. This will solve the moral dilemma, I think.

* Footnote: The act, not the person !! I don't think anyone can judge another as evil but I do think abortion as a substitute for contraception is very wrong and can degrade our society.

 

[Dado]

I am still waiting on admin to delete my account but while I am still here I could share my opinion on this topic. I also agree with points presented by @Misty and @John K

My belief is that life starts at conception (wiki on conception : the beginning of pregnancy involving fertilisation and implantation of the embryo onto the uterine wall) because at that moment soul or subtle body enters the zygot/embryo which then further instructs embryo with the help of DNA in what way it should develop.

So from mine perspective abortion is equivalent of killing living being. No matter what is the context, it is still murder because for woman to have voluntary abortion, she first needs to have intention to kill in her mind and every voluntary action leaves karmic impression in persons memory which means that person will reap consequence in future for her performed intentional action which in this case was killing of baby (action=reaction). It is not a surprise why more and more people on the west are depressed and suicidal while at same time each year millions of babies are killed. Huge karmic backlash...

That abortion is a wrong thing also becomes evident to a lot of woman in their older age when they become fully self aware of what they did, which usually leads to self hate and guilt. Also argument which says that "it is her body, her choice" doesn't hold water, because that "clump of cells" is actually separate living being with its own individual subtle body/soul/mind and physical body which is not yet fully independent of womans body while in womb but nevertheless that doesn't deny the fact that it is separate living being.

Also, people who get triggered by these responses like what I wrote and see this as some kind of shaming, they actually reveal themselves their own selfishness.

 

[Misty]

I am still waiting on admin to delete my account but while I am still here I could share my opinion on this topic. I also agree with points presented by @Misty and @John K

My belief is that life starts at conception (wiki on conception : the beginning of pregnancy involving fertilisation and implantation of the embryo onto the uterine wall) because at that moment soul or subtle body enters the zygot/embryo which then further instructs embryo with the help of DNA in what way it should develop.

So from mine perspective abortion is equivalent of killing living being. No matter what is the context, it is still murder because for woman to have voluntary abortion, she first needs to have intention to kill in her mind and every voluntary action leaves karmic impression in persons memory which means that person will reap consequence in future for her performed intentional action which in this case was killing of baby (action=reaction). It is not a surprise why more and more people on the west are depressed and suicidal while at same time each year millions of babies are killed. Huge karmic backlash...

That abortion is a wrong thing also becomes evident to a lot of woman in their older age when they become fully self aware of what they did, which usually leads to self hate and guilt. Also argument which says that "it is her body, her choice" doesn't hold water, because that "clump of cells" is actually separate living being with its own individual subtle body/soul/mind and physical body which is not yet fully independent of womans body while in womb but nevertheless that doesn't deny the fact that it is separate living being.

Also, people who get triggered by these responses like what I wrote and see this as some kind of shaming, they actually reveal themselves their own selfishness.

I never thought I'd say this.. But. Agreed.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I am still waiting on admin to delete my account but while I am still here I could share my opinion on this topic. I also agree with points presented by @Misty and @John K

Whaaaat? Why??

 

[acd]

It's fine to believe that a fetus has a soul or that life begins at conception but your beliefs are just beliefs. So should one person's unverifiable theological beliefs dictate what choices someone else makes concerning their own body? Because in the US, that seems to be the agenda.

Here's my belief: I don't believe it is God's divine plan for adolescent rape victims to get pregnant. I don't think it's God's will that a woman in a nursing home in a vegetative state conceive a child by force of a staff person who should have been caring for and protecting her. I don't think every spontaneous abortion women have and don't even realize they had is part of God's plan. I don't think God intends ectopic pregnancies. I don't think babies with severe genetic defects that are not compatible with life are the result of God's will. Maybe God sets the wheels in motion and lets biology run its course? Or maybe there is no God. Or maybe there is but you can't prove it and the rest don't want to live under a theocracy.

So whose ideas are correct? Does it even matter? Do unverifiable theological beliefs involving souls and God's will make a sound basis for legislation? In the US our constitution says it should not.

It's a heated topic and I'm not trying to offend but just state my side. You can be offended if I question your faith if you want. Maybe it's a bit offensive that someone's personal beliefs about souls and determination take precedent over my choices.

 

[Dado]

Whaaaat? Why??

Main reason why I want to leave is because I must admit that I got addicted to forum, I started to check my phone non stop and search for topics to discuss (I have very addictive personality). This goes againts my principles that I follow in my everyday life and goal that I want to accomplish. So I am waiting for admin to delete my account or ban it because I don't want to have access to it.

@Misty I understand that I had wrong approach in discussions under enligthenment topic. Sorry for my rudeness towards you <3

 

[Deleted member 16771]

Main reason why I want to leave is because I must admit that I got addicted to forum, I started to check my phone non stop and search for topics to discuss (I have very addictive personality). This goes againts my principles that I follow in my everyday life and goal that I want to accomplish. So I am waiting for admin to delete my account or ban it because I don't want to have access to it.

You're more sensible than me, bro.

 

[JennyDaniella]

Here's my belief: I don't believe it is God's divine plan for adolescent rape victims to get pregnant. I don't think it's God's will that a woman in a nursing home in a vegetative state conceive a child by force of a staff person who should have been caring for and protecting her. I don't think every spontaneous abortion women have and don't even realize they had is part of God's plan. I don't think God intends ectopic pregnancies. I don't think babies with severe genetic defects that are not compatible with life are the result of God's will. Maybe God sets the wheels in motion and lets biology run its course? Or maybe there is no God. Or maybe there is but you can't prove it and the rest don't want to live under a theocracy.

So whose ideas are correct? Does it even matter? Do unverifiable theological beliefs involving souls and God's will make a sound basis for legislation? In the US our constitution says it should not.

It's a heated topic and I'm not trying to offend but just state my side. You can be offended if I question your faith if you want. Maybe it's a bit offensive that someone's personal beliefs about souls and determination take precedent over my choices.

Well-said!

And what happened to that woman here in Arizona was absolutely horrendous.

 

[Misty]

Main reason why I want to leave is because I must admit that I got addicted to forum, I started to check my phone non stop and search for topics to discuss (I have very addictive personality). This goes againts my principles that I follow in my everyday life and goal that I want to accomplish. So I am waiting for admin to delete my account or ban it because I don't want to have access to it.

@Misty I understand that I had wrong approach in discussions under enligthenment topic. Sorry for my rudeness towards you <3

I am sorry, as well, for the jokes, dude. No harm. And thanks for the apology.

 

[JamieUK92]

Well for one, I won’t have sex with a woman without ensuring contraceptive measures are in place, unless I was actively trying for a child.

If, for whatever reason I did impregnate a women unintentionally, then I would fight my corner for her to keep it no matter what terms we are on. If it meant me bringing that child up as a single parent then that’s what I’m doing. Of course it’s her body and I can’t stop her from making the final decision and I’d have to respect that but I’d fight my corner nonetheless.

If the foetus had some kind of defect that would lead to a severely impaired quality of life, then I would fight my corner for an abortion. Again, I would have to respect the final decision of the woman.

 

[Dado]

It's fine to believe that a fetus has a soul or that life begins at conception but your beliefs are just beliefs. So should one person's unverifiable theological beliefs dictate what choices someone else makes concerning their own body? Because in the US, that seems to be the agenda.

Here's my belief: I don't believe it is God's divine plan for adolescent rape victims to get pregnant. I don't think it's God's will that a woman in a nursing home in a vegetative state conceive a child by force of a staff person who should have been caring for and protecting her. I don't think every spontaneous abortion women have and don't even realize they had is part of God's plan. I don't think God intends ectopic pregnancies. I don't think babies with severe genetic defects that are not compatible with life are the result of God's will. Maybe God sets the wheels in motion and lets biology run its course? Or maybe there is no God. Or maybe there is but you can't prove it and the rest don't want to live under a theocracy.

So whose ideas are correct? Does it even matter? Do unverifiable theological beliefs involving souls and God's will make a sound basis for legislation? In the US our constitution says it should not.

It's a heated topic and I'm not trying to offend but just state my side. You can be offended if I question your faith if you want. Maybe it's a bit offensive that someone's personal beliefs about souls and determination take precedent over my choices.

I agree with you, we all have our own opinions and believes. I am not forcing anything onto you.

Back to discussion... You don't need to look at soul as something mystical. It is just subtle body, or subtle energies(thoughts, emotions) which give physical body ability to function, to be alive. You can become aware of it fully in deep meditations so I am not being dogmatic and blind faithed, I am coming from a place of personal direct experience. There is also law in science which is the first law of thermodynamics or the law of conservation of energy, which says that energy can not be created or destroyed but that it can only change its states. So it would be wise to account existence of the soul because it can explain a lot of things that people on the west(scientists) have problem with.

You don't need to blame God. It is us who brought all of this suffering upon ourselves. Suffering is result of our intentional actions that we did in the past, not only this life but also our past lifes. We are know just repaying our debts. What you saw so shall you reap.

Also, you don't need to involve God into this topic for morality. You know in your heart that any form of killing is wrong, you dont need any commandments to say you that. That is why you are armed up with so many arguments as to why abortion should be ok to do. You do it as to avoid that inner guilt because you allowed yourself to believe that killing is ok thing to do.

I also find it hypocritical that people are promoting messages of love and understanding but when it comes to unborn defendless child, they dont want to find any reason why to keep it

 

[Lady Jolanda]

Main reason why I want to leave is because I must admit that I got addicted to forum, I started to check my phone non stop and search for topics to discuss (I have very addictive personality). This goes againts my principles that I follow in my everyday life and goal that I want to accomplish. So I am waiting for admin to delete my account or ban it because I don't want to have access to it.

@Misty I understand that I had wrong approach in discussions under enligthenment topic. Sorry for my rudeness towards you <3

Yeah, we're not deleting accounts. We do (temporarily or permanently) ban accounts. I haven't seen any official request from you, but this is as good as any. If you're absolutely sure of your decision I can give you a temporary ban of a few months.

Who knew a simple forum account could get in the way of enlightenment.

 

[Dado]

Yeah, we're not deleting accounts. We do (temporarily or permanently) ban accounts. I haven't seen any official request from you, but this is as good as any. If you're absolutely sure of your decision I can give you a temporary ban of a few months.

Who knew a simple forum account could get in the way of enlightenment.

I will contact you when to ban me but right now I am in good discussion so I am waiting till I am without anything to say anymore lol

Yeah, thats why enlightenment is tricky path, you need to let go of every form of pleasure which keeps you connected to this world

 

[acd]

I agree with you, we all have our own opinions and believes. I am not forcing anything onto you.

Back to discussion... You don't need to look at soul as something mystical. It is just subtle body, or subtle energies(thoughts, emotions) which give physical body ability to function, to be alive. You can become aware of it fully in deep meditations so I am not being dogmatic and blind faithed, I am coming from a place of personal direct experience. There is also law in science which is the first law of thermodynamics or the law of conservation of energy, which says that energy can not be created or destroyed but that it can only change its states. So it would be wise to account existence of the soul because it can explain a lot of things that people on the west(scientists) have problem with.

You don't need to blame God. It is us who brought all of this suffering upon ourselves. Suffering is result of our intentional actions that we did in the past, not only this life but also our past lifes. We are know just repaying our debts. What you saw so shall you reap.

Also, you don't need to involve God into this topic for morality. You know in your heart that any form of killing is wrong, you dont need any commandments to say you that. That is why you are armed up with so many arguments as to why abortion should be ok to do. You do it as to avoid that inner guilt because you allowed yourself to believe that killing is ok thing to do.

I also find it hypocritical that people are promoting messages of love and understanding but when it comes to unborn defendless child, they dont want to find any reason why to keep it

This is a lot of unverifiable belief and moralizing. It's fine for an opinion but these opinions and personal beliefs don't belong in legislation that impacts the very private and personal lives of others who don't share those beliefs.

There are plenty of reasons to keep a pregnancy. There are also plenty of reasons to decide not to.

 

[Misty]

It's fine to believe that a fetus has a soul or that life begins at conception but your beliefs are just beliefs. So should one person's unverifiable theological beliefs dictate what choices someone else makes concerning their own body? Because in the US, that seems to be the agenda.

Here's my belief: I don't believe it is God's divine plan for adolescent rape victims to get pregnant. I don't think it's God's will that a woman in a nursing home in a vegetative state conceive a child by force of a staff person who should have been caring for and protecting her. I don't think every spontaneous abortion women have and don't even realize they had is part of God's plan. I don't think God intends ectopic pregnancies. I don't think babies with severe genetic defects that are not compatible with life are the result of God's will. Maybe God sets the wheels in motion and lets biology run its course? Or maybe there is no God. Or maybe there is but you can't prove it and the rest don't want to live under a theocracy.

So whose ideas are correct? Does it even matter? Do unverifiable theological beliefs involving souls and God's will make a sound basis for legislation? In the US our constitution says it should not.

It's a heated topic and I'm not trying to offend but just state my side. You can be offended if I question your faith if you want. Maybe it's a bit offensive that someone's personal beliefs about souls and determination take precedent over my choices.

While I can control my own emotions on such a deeply personal topic as this, these days, I will say that the Bible does attest to souls and God knowing us even as we grew in our own mother's womb..

Psalm 13-16

13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

Luke 12:7 New International Version (NIV)
7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered."

So to say zillions of faiths.. believers.. are wrong or have "no proof", I find offensive. Any yet, I do know you, a bit, and I know you mean not to offend, so I lose the offended feeling quickly..❤

But, sadly, it is true that even millions of good people with faith cannot convince those millions without. This shift from belief to disbelief has to come naturally to each person in their own time.. If ever. So, I only remind the disbelievers then- of one fact.

Murder is murder is murder. If killing Whales is illegal, one won't walk onto a beach full of slain baby whales to exclaim.. "OMG!!".. crying.. then..

"Oh hey, nevermind guys, phew! It's only baby whales! Close one.. carry on!"..

No more does killing a tiny human being any less constitute as murder.

murder

Also found in: Dictionary, Thesaurus, Medical, Acronyms, Idioms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.

"The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse. ... The precise definition of murder varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Under the Common Law, or law made by courts, murder was the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought."

^^ The bolding is theirs, not mine.

I do by these aforementioned facts agree with @Dado because that human gets absolutely zero vote in his own death, to ease the life of another. I understand about molestations & rape, bc I too have suffered these. So I speak from the standpoint of the very same afflicted to whom you refer. And I still feel it is selfish. Killing the child that was conceived in a crime of rape by no means justifies the crime of murder.. especially upon the most innocent of beings in the situation- ( besides the poor abused mother ) - who is also clearly an innocent victim, herself.

Killing the child won't erase the trauma. In fact, abortion itself is factually known to *often* ( but not always ) cause PTSD and nightmares after, sometimes even decades later. Nonetheless, not a pleasant end. There is no reason the mother cannot carry the child and then give it away.. But murder does not constitute as acceptable therapy, nor is it OK to kill another human. Death penalty included. None of us has the right to take the life of another. God, or no God.