Pro-life or Pro-choice?

[John K]

It's fine to believe that a fetus has a soul or that life begins at conception but your beliefs are just beliefs. So should one person's unverifiable theological beliefs dictate what choices someone else makes concerning their own body? Because in the US, that seems to be the agenda.

Here's my belief: I don't believe it is God's divine plan for adolescent rape victims to get pregnant. I don't think it's God's will that a woman in a nursing home in a vegetative state conceive a child by force of a staff person who should have been caring for and protecting her. I don't think every spontaneous abortion women have and don't even realize they had is part of God's plan. I don't think God intends ectopic pregnancies. I don't think babies with severe genetic defects that are not compatible with life are the result of God's will. Maybe God sets the wheels in motion and lets biology run its course? Or maybe there is no Good. Or maybe there is but you can't prove it and the rest don't want to live under a theocracy.

So whose ideas are correct? Does it even matter? Do unverifiable theological beliefs involving souls and God's will make a sound basis for legislation? In the US our constitution says it should not.

It's a heated topic and I'm not trying to offend but just state my side. You can be offended if I question your faith if you want. Maybe it's a bit offensive that someone's personal beliefs about souls and determination take precedent over my choices.

I think this should up to a point be left to individual conscience. I don't think faith based perspectives should per se dictate this issue, but of course in the West our governments are selected by democratic processes and religiously-oriented voters may well determine the flavour of government in office - but the same is true of other types of social group who can influence other equally controversial issues as well, such as gun control in the US, and immigration just about everywhere in the developed world. Presumably the answer to a tightening of abortion law in the US lies in the ballet box?

Again personally, I don't find your views offensive - a lot of harm has been done through uncritical religious dogmatism in the past, and in too many cases this has only been undone through vigorous confrontation. I respect your views on abortion, but I do hope you can respect those of a different view even if you disagree with them. The awful situations that you point to as justifying abortion have to be set against the deeply held feeling that many have that it involves the deliberate taking of a life, which is also a terrible tragedy for those who feel it that way. There is no easy answer to these equally powerful perspectives imho.

My own perspective is perhaps not only rooted in religious beliefs - are there many for example, religious or not, who would agree with late term abortion under any but the most exceptional circumstances? The issue then becomes a debate about at what stage of development is abortion no longer acceptable - and this is a moving feast because of medical advances, like I said before.

 

[Dado]

While I can control my own emotions on such a deeply personal topic as this, these days, I will say that the Bible does attest to souls and God knowing us even as we grew in our own mother's womb..

Psalm 13-16

13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

Luke 12:7 New International Version (NIV)
7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered."

So to say zillions of faiths.. believers.. are wrong or have "no proof", I find offensive. Any yet, I do know you, a bit, and I know you mean not to offend, so I loose the offended feeling quickly..❤

But, sadly, it is true that even millions of good people with faith cannot convince those millions without. This shift from belief to disbelief has to come naturally to each person in their own time.. If ever. So, I only remind the disbelievers then- of one fact.

Murder is murder is murder. If killing Whales is illegal, one won't walk onto a beach full of slain baby whales to exclaim.. "OMG!!".. crying.. then..

"Oh yo, nevermind guys, phew! It's only baby whales! Close one.. carry on!"..

No more does killing a tiny human being any less constitute as murder.

murder

Also found in: Dictionary, Thesaurus, Medical, Acronyms, Idioms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.

"The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse. ... The precise definition of murder varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Under the Common Law, or law made by courts, murderwas the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought."

^^ The bolding is theirs, not mine.

I do by these aforementioned facts agree with @Dado because that human gets absolutely zero vote in his own death, to ease the life of another. I understand about molestations & rape, bc I too have suffered these. So I speak from the standpoint of the very same afflicted to whom you refer. And I still feel it is selfish. Killing the child that was conceived in a crime of rape by no means justifies the crime of murder.. especially upon the most innocent of beings in the situation- ( besides the poor abused mother ) - who is also clearly an innocent victim, herself.

Killing the child won't erase the trauma. In fact, abortion itself is factually known to cause PTSD & nightmares after, sometimes decades later. Nonetheless, not a pleasant end. There is no reason the mother cannot carry the child and then give it away.. But murder does not constitute as acceptable therapy, nor is it OK to kill another human. Death penalty included. None of us has the right to take the life of another. God, or no God.

Totally agree

 

[acd]

While I can control my own emotions on such a deeply depersonal topic as this, these days, I will say that the Bible does attest to souls and God knowing us as even we grew in our own mother's womb..

Psalm 13-16

13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

Luke 12:7 New International Version (NIV)
7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered."

So to say zillions of faiths.. believers.. are wrong or have "no proof", I find offensive. Any yet, I do know you, a bit, and I know you mean not to offend, so I loose the offended feeling quickly..❤

But, sadly, it is true that even millions of good people with faith cannot convince those millions without. This shift from belief to disbelief has to come naturally to each person in their own time.. If ever. So, I only remind the disbelievers then- of one fact.

Murder is murder is murder. If killing Whales is illegal, one won't walk onto a beach full of slain baby whales to exclaim.. "OMG!!".. crying.. then..

"Oh yo, nevermind guys, phew! It's only baby whales! Close one.. carry on!"..

No more does killing a tiny human being any less constitute as murder.

murder

Also found in: Dictionary, Thesaurus, Medical, Acronyms, Idioms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.

"The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse. ... The precise definition of murder varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Under the Common Law, or law made by courts, murderwas the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought."

^^ The bolding is theirs, not mine.

I do by these aforementioned facts agree with @Dado because that human gets absolutely zero vote in his own death, to ease the life of another. I understand about molestations & rape, bc I too have suffered these. So I speak from the standpoint of the very same afflicted to whom you refer. And I still feel it is selfish. Killing the child that was conceived in a crime of rape by no means justifies the crime of murder.. especially upon the most innocent of beings in the situation- ( besides the poor abused mother ) - who is also clearly an innocent victim, herself.

Killing the child won't erase the trauma. In fact, abortion itself is factually known to cause PTSD & nightmares after, sometimes decades later. Nonetheless, not a pleasant end. There is no reason the mother cannot carry the child and then give it away.. But murder does not constitute as acceptable therapy, nor is it OK to kill another human. Death penalty included. None of us has the right to take the life of another. God, or no God.

I understand why Christians are pro-life. I come from a Catholic family. I understand the very emotional aspect of this. I at one time opposed abortion.

We really can't base legislation around the Bible because of the establishment clause in our constitution (thankfully!) There are other religions and perspectives who disagree with the Bible on this. Why should the Bible take precedent in determining these things over other faiths or belief systems?

I think it should be left up to the individual.

 

[MoonFlier]

I will contact you when to ban me but right now I am in good discussion so I am waiting till I am without anything to say anymore lol

Yeah, thats why enlightenment is tricky path, you need to let go of every form of pleasure which keeps you connected to this world

You know... we have a few hard heads around here who will be happy to tell you to get off the forum and back to life any time you want
Discussion is always good. Addictions are bad (I say as I bop around 3 different forums... ahem, I'm not one to talk.)

 

[Dado]

This is a lot of unverifiable belief and moralizing. It's fine for an opinion but these opinions and personal beliefs don't belong in legislation that impacts the very private and personal lives of others who don't share those beliefs.

There are plenty of reasons to keep a pregnancy. There are also plenty of reasons to decide not to.

I understand why Christians are pro-life. I come from a Catholic family. I understand the very emotional aspect of this. I at one time opposed abortion.

We really can't base legislation around the Bible because of the establishment clause in our constitution (thankfully!) There are other religions and perspectives who disagree with the Bible on this. Why should the Bible take precedent in determining these things over other faiths or belief systems?

I am sure that every major religion is against abortion because each one of them recognise main universal value which is to avoid doing harm and not to kill living being.

 

[Misty]

I agree with you, we all have our own opinions and believes. I am not forcing anything onto you.

Back to discussion... You don't need to look at soul as something mystical. It is just subtle body, or subtle energies(thoughts, emotions) which give physical body ability to function, to be alive. You can become aware of it fully in deep meditations so I am not being dogmatic and blind faithed, I am coming from a place of personal direct experience. There is also law in science which is the first law of thermodynamics or the law of conservation of energy, which says that energy can not be created or destroyed but that it can only change its states. So it would be wise to account existence of the soul because it can explain a lot of things that people on the west(scientists) have problem with.

You don't need to blame God. It is us who brought all of this suffering upon ourselves. Suffering is result of our intentional actions that we did in the past, not only this life but also our past lifes. We are know just repaying our debts. What you saw so shall you reap.

Also, you don't need to involve God into this topic for morality. You know in your heart that any form of killing is wrong, you dont need any commandments to say you that. That is why you are armed up with so many arguments as to why abortion should be ok to do. You do it as to avoid that inner guilt because you allowed yourself to believe that killing is ok thing to do.

I also find it hypocritical that people are promoting messages of love and understanding but when it comes to unborn defendless child, they dont want to find any reason why to keep it

This^ Yes.

 

[Misty]

I understand why Christians are pro-life. I come from a Catholic family. I understand the very emotional aspect of this. I at one time opposed abortion.

We really can't base legislation around the Bible because of the establishment clause in our constitution (thankfully!) There are other religions and perspectives who disagree with the Bible on this. Why should the Bible take precedent in determining these things over other faiths or belief systems?

I think it should be left up to the individual.

Yes, but I also already referred to this. Murder isn't just about God & the 10 commandments. It's about one human being killing another defenceless human being to avoid a few months of discomfort, which has squat to do with God.

 

[John K]

While I can control my own emotions on such a deeply personal topic as this, these days, I will say that the Bible does attest to souls and God knowing us even as we grew in our own mother's womb..

Psalm 13-16

13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

Luke 12:7 New International Version (NIV)
7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered."

So to say zillions of faiths.. believers.. are wrong or have "no proof", I find offensive. Any yet, I do know you, a bit, and I know you mean not to offend, so I loose the offended feeling quickly..❤

But, sadly, it is true that even millions of good people with faith cannot convince those millions without. This shift from belief to disbelief has to come naturally to each person in their own time.. If ever. So, I only remind the disbelievers then- of one fact.

Murder is murder is murder. If killing Whales is illegal, one won't walk onto a beach full of slain baby whales to exclaim.. "OMG!!".. crying.. then..

"Oh yo, nevermind guys, phew! It's only baby whales! Close one.. carry on!"..

No more does killing a tiny human being any less constitute as murder.

murder

Also found in: Dictionary, Thesaurus, Medical, Acronyms, Idioms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.

"The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse. ... The precise definition of murder varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Under the Common Law, or law made by courts, murderwas the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought."

^^ The bolding is theirs, not mine.

I do by these aforementioned facts agree with @Dado because that human gets absolutely zero vote in his own death, to ease the life of another. I understand about molestations & rape, bc I too have suffered these. So I speak from the standpoint of the very same afflicted to whom you refer. And I still feel it is selfish. Killing the child that was conceived in a crime of rape by no means justifies the crime of murder.. especially upon the most innocent of beings in the situation- ( besides the poor abused mother ) - who is also clearly an innocent victim, herself.

Killing the child won't erase the trauma. In fact, abortion itself is factually known to cause PTSD & nightmares after, sometimes decades later. Nonetheless, not a pleasant end. There is no reason the mother cannot carry the child and then give it away.. But murder does not constitute as acceptable therapy, nor is it OK to kill another human. Death penalty included. None of us has the right to take the life of another. God, or no God.

I very much agree with this Misty - you have put it really well.

The issue seems to hinge on determining when a fetus becomes a human being - those who support abortion don't believe they are killing a person. To me, their way of determining when the transition to person happens seems just as much based on belief - a secular belief - as any religious point of view. I must say when we lost a child to miscarriage at 12 weeks it felt like we lost someone, not something - I still think about him or her with deep sadness 40 odd years later.

I guess my community perspective is that I respect the rights of others to have different views and feelings to mine, and it's the price we pay for democracy that minorities don't dictate to the majority. Whatever way the law goes on this issue, there will be a lot of people whose consciences are profundly impacted - whether through tighter or looser abortion rules. I do feel strongly though that a view should not be discounted just because it is rooted in a religious conviction. Most strong views are rooted in equally powerful convictions and I don't see why a secular faith should outweigh a religious one.

 

[Misty]

I very much agree with this Misty - you have put it really well.

The issue seems to hinge on determining when a fetus becomes a human being - those who support abortion don't believe they are killing a person. To me, their way of determining when the transition to person happens seems just as much based on belief - a secular belief - as any religious point of view. I must say when we lost a child to miscarriage at 12 weeks it felt like we lost someone, not something - I still think about him or her with deep sadness 40 odd years later.

I guess my community perspective is that I respect the rights of others to have different views and feelings to mine, and it's the price we pay for democracy that minorities don't dictate to the majority. Whatever way the law goes on this issue, there will be a lot of people whose consciences are profundly impacted - whether through tighter or looser abortion rules. I do feel strongly though that a view should not be discounted just because it is rooted in a religious conviction. Most strong views are rooted in equally powerful convictions and I don't see why a secular faith should outweigh a religious one.

Yes. I'm done making my point, and proud of myself for my own growth because I didn't go fire mode on the topic. I am so sorry for your loss. 12 weeks is far.. 2 weeks from gender reveal & halfway to viability. *hugs* John..

I have also suffered 4 such losses. The first at 11 weeks. Some time later another at nearly 6 months, my son -Xavier. A "lightning strike" chance loss, a suspected ( UCA ) Umbilical Cord Accident.

Doctors & specialists rallied to assure us of its rarity, promising that having even one is "practically" medical history. So, I suffered. And then, I picked my warrior self back up and tried again. Two months later, my husband & I were expecting, and one year after our son Xavier' death.. new life was born - a son, the best little man I have ever had the honor to know.. Now a healthy, thriving little hobbit who even has my hobbit toes!

After him I wanted just one sibling for him to play with, then done. But lightning has a fascination with me, and the 3rd son I became pregnant with was found upon my 4 month gender reveal ultrasound with no heartbeat.

Devastation ensued.. again. I was induced and he was born with his cord around his thigh four times. The cord was flat and pinched.. cutting off his air supply. A verified UCA. 4 months later, one last try, I became pregnant again with my 4th son - Ayden. At the 4 month ultrasound he was found without heartbeat... Induction, born with his cord around his neck 5 times ( nuchal cord ). 3 late term UCA stillbirths in 3 years.

I understand the pain the two of you feel, John. ❤ Life is life, no matter how small.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

Yes. I'm done making my point, and proud of myself for my own growth because I didn't go fire mode on the topic. I am so sorry for your loss. 12 weeks is far.. 2 weeks from gender reveal & halfway to viability. *hugs* John..

I have also suffered 4 such losses. The first at 11 weeks. Some time later another at nearly 6 months, my son -Xavier. A "lightning strike" chance loss, a suspected ( UCA ) Umbilical Cord Accident.

Doctors & specialists rallied to assure us of its rarity, promising that having even one is "practically" medical history. So, I suffered. And then, I picked my warrior self back up and tried again. Two months later, my husband & I were expecting, and one year after our son Xavier' death.. new life was born - a son, the best little man I have ever had the honor to know.. Now a healthy, thriving little hobbit who even has my hobbit toes!

After him I wanted just one sibling for him to play with, then done. But lightning has a fascination with me, and the 3rd son I became pregnant with was found upon my 4 month gender reveal ultrasound with no heartbeat.

Devastation ensued.. again. I was induced and he was born with his cord around his thigh four times. The cord was flat and pinched.. cutting off his air supply. A verified UCA. 4 months later, one last try, I became pregnant again with my 4th son - Ayden. At the 4 month ultrasound he was found without heartbeat... Induction, born with his cord around his neck 5 times ( nuchal cord ). 3 late term UCA stillbirths in 3 years.

I understand the pain the two of you feel, John. ❤ Life is life, no matter how small.

Oooph... *Big hugs*

 

[Misty]

Oooph... *Big hugs*

Thanks as always, for the emotional support on this.. Means a lot.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

Thanks as always, for the emotional support on this.. Means a lot.

<3

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

And to everyone else that has suffered difficult pregnancies, births, or miscarriages...

 

[Misty]

You used the Bible to justify your stance. So it does have to do with God or personal beliefs.

Incorrect. I began by defending the fact that faithful peoples "proof" is not imaginary or untrue just because you say it is.

Then I clearly stated my entire case against murder, repeatedly saying that it has nothing to do with God.

I'm glad you don't know what it feels like to lose a son. I'm glad yours was born healthy. I'd not wish such torment on my worst enemy.. But I do think as this is such a tender subject for the two of us - that we should no longer discuss it with one another, because I am trying to remain chill & respectful toward you.

God also seems a touchy subject, not just for me, but you too.. so let's just amicably agree to disagree.

Much love & respect, ACD

 

[acd]

Incorrect. I began by defending faithful peoples "proof" is not imaginary or untrue just because you say it is.

Then I clearly stated an entire case against murder, repeatedly saying that has nothing to do with God.

I'm glad you don't know what it feels like to lose a son. I'm glad yours was born healthy. I'd not wish it on mu worst enemy.. But I think as this is such a tender subject for the two of us - that we should no longer discuss it with one another, because I am trying to remain chill & respectful toward you.

God also seems a touchy subject, not just for me, but you too.. so let's just amicably agree to disagree.

Much love & respect, ACD

I'm sorry for what you've gone through and wish nobody had to experience that loss.

 

[Misty]

The Bible isn't proof.

Also I've tried to share my own pregnancy story but it's too personal feels like TMI to post it here. I'll just say it was a nightmare due to my own health condition but I still chose my son. I would not do it again. I would not take the risk of not being here for him. He almost didn't make it too. I'm sorry for what you've gone through and wish nobody had to experience that loss.

The bible is not the only proof. That's why it's called faith.

But to millions of humans whose beliefs deserve respect it is plenty of proof & evidence. I don't tell you your beliefs are unprovable and I'd appreciate you do the same.

Thank you for your condolences. Very kind of you. And I too am sorry you had such a terrifying pregnancy.. I know how scary those can be.

 

[Dado]

@John K and @Misty i am sorry for your loss guys... You are strong people. A lot of hugs to both of you <3 <3

 

[John K]

Yes. I'm done making my point, and proud of myself for my own growth because I didn't go fire mode on the topic. I am so sorry for your loss. 12 weeks is far.. 2 weeks from gender reveal & halfway to viability. *hugs* John..

I have also suffered 4 such losses. The first at 11 weeks. Some time later another at nearly 6 months, my son -Xavier. A "lightning strike" chance loss, a suspected ( UCA ) Umbilical Cord Accident.

Doctors & specialists rallied to assure us of its rarity, promising that having even one is "practically" medical history. So, I suffered. And then, I picked my warrior self back up and tried again. Two months later, my husband & I were expecting, and one year after our son Xavier' death.. new life was born - a son, the best little man I have ever had the honor to know.. Now a healthy, thriving little hobbit who even has my hobbit toes!

After him I wanted just one sibling for him to play with, then done. But lightning has a fascination with me, and the 3rd son I became pregnant with was found upon my 4 month gender reveal ultrasound with no heartbeat.

Devastation ensued.. again. I was induced and he was born with his cord around his thigh four times. The cord was flat and pinched.. cutting off his air supply. A verified UCA. 4 months later, one last try, I became pregnant again with my 4th son - Ayden. At the 4 month ultrasound he was found without heartbeat... Induction, born with his cord around his neck 5 times ( nuchal cord ). 3 late term UCA stillbirths in 3 years.

I understand the pain the two of you feel, John. ❤ Life is life, no matter how small.

Oh gosh Misty you have really been tried and tested. You must feel all the more love for your surviving children. But how strong you are!


Our loss was too early for my wife to have felt any movement- it must be a lot worse at a later stage when you have felt the baby moving. My wife haemorrhaged badly though and we nearly lost her. She had to be rushed for emergency surgery.

Our second son was born 2 years later - he came a month early and had pneumonia because of stiff lungs but they sorted him out ok. Awkward so and so ever since - he was supposed to arrive end Jan but turned up on 22 Dec just before Chistmas. For years we had 3 family birthdays within 10 days of Christmas and another on Boxing Day, but there’s only me and my son now my gran and mother in law are no longer with us.

I can see why life is so precious to you. Did you find your faith helped you through these trials? Of course from the outside it can look like Christianity is just an artificial crutch to lean on, but it isn’t like that on the inside. I’m never left to struggle on my own - it’s a close relationship with someone who loves me. The ‘beliefs’ are really secondary to that.

 

[Misty]

@John K and @Misty i am sorry for your loss guys... You are strong people. A lot of hugs to both of you <3 <3

That's very kind of you, Dado. The sentiment means a lot.. so, thank you

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

Is anyone pro-choice for fathers?

My oldest, bestest childhood friend was told by a few doctors that he'd not be able to have children. His girlfriend got pregnant and later it was determined the child would be severely handicapped. My friend was so excited to finally be having a child. His girlfriend didn't like that their child would be mentally handicapped so she suggested an abortion. My friend fought her and fought her on the issue. He begged her. He would've raised his miracle baby by himself if he had to. She aborted the pregnancy anyway. When my friend found out about the abortion, he blew his brains out...