Quiet: The Power of Introverts - Ep1

muir said:
Walk away from what?

See what?

Please explain what it is you think i'm seeing

Also i noticed that you were involved in a pretty messy situation over there in the dear so and so thread

My view on that is that the debates usually run ok as long as people stick to the issues. When they turn sour is when people move off the issues and start getting personal

I noticed that you were getting pretty personal in that debate and i suggest to you that might be the cause of some of the friction

The discussions and debates on the forum can be a way for people and especially INFJ's (for who this forum primarily exists) to learn more. However they usually veer out of the realms of constructive growth when people get personal

What is less offensive and more constructive is when people discuss the issues unless of course the person has requested a view on their personal life

So Cindy is there anything you'd like to say about the thread we are in and about whether or not society has created an introvert ideal?
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You suggested to [MENTION=4680]this is only temporary[/MENTION] that she convince others to not be in the dark about the information you had posted in this thread

I asked if you had been able to do the same to those close to you in real life. It was an honest question with honest intent, but I apologize if I got too personal or if you thought I was attacking you in some way. It wasn't my intent. I got involved in that debate because I hate cyber-bullying and I thought someone more aggressive was pushing people around.

If we were all sitting together having a discussion at a table, I would have asked you that question because that's how conversations go. Someone says something that makes me curious or interested and I might interrupt or ask a question that might go another direction. I really wasn't trying to go in a direction that wasn't constructive, I promise I wasn't. :(
 
CindyLou said:
You suggested to @this is only temporary that she convince others to not be in the dark about the information you had posted in this thread

I asked if you had been able to do the same to those close to you in real life. It was an honest question with honest intent, but I apologize if I got too personal or if you thought I was attacking you in some way. It wasn't my intent. I got involved in that debate because I hate cyber-bullying and I thought someone more aggressive was pushing people around.

If we were all sitting together having a discussion at a table, I would have asked you that question because that's how conversations go. Someone says something that makes me curious or interested and I might interrupt or ask a question that might go another direction. I really wasn't trying to go in a direction that wasn't constructive, I promise I wasn't. :(
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Ok lets stick to the issues and avoid cyber bullying
 
Certainly American culture beats us over the head with the extroverted ideal. Introversion is often seen as a step toward depression.

Depression itself is treated as a disease. I recently listened to a Jungian Analyst point out that in Jungian psychology "depression" is not categorized as a disorder. When a client comes in and reports symptom of depression the Analyst outwardly offers sympathy but inwardly they are delighted because in that framework depression is a sign that things are ripe for significant change for that individual.

The video points out that we are pressuring a significant portion of our society into believing they are not good enough. We are also pushing our youth into adopting alien personality traits.

I have another round of parent teacher conferences coming up and as much as I would like to invite these teachers into to thinking about how they are unknowing tools of an oppressive society I know that to get them to reconsider their hard held preconceived notions another tact is called for.

Any suggestions?
 
solongotgon said:
That's great that you found your comfort level as an INFJ. The same can't be said for younger INFJs who had just discovered their typology and trying to figure out how to cope with their functions. Most INFJs come from a whiny and insecure setting to begin with and come to journey into more developed understanding of themselves and their typology as they start to interact with other INFJs and participating in the forums such as this.

The video was created for awareness; not to support persecution and is necessary for non INFJs to understand the social context in which INFJs suffer or thrive in. Maybe next time an INFJ teen complains of not fitting in and not being recognized for their "quiet" talents to tell him to stop whining and to stop contributing to the persecution of introverts?
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I'm not an INFJ.

And I did spent a lot of my youth feeling inadequate because I wasn't super sociable...but I realized I was the one holding myself back and getting caught up in a negative cycle.. That the messages I was receiving about who I should be weren't really coming from family or teachers or peers... but from television and media and people who didn't even know me... Nobody in my life gave me trouble for being quiet. People seemed to accept it. Maybe I was just lucky.

I remember being younger and at a holiday party with my dad at his girlfriend's home, and after a period of eating and socializing, I went and sat in a room by myself and read. People kept coming in to check on me and my dad told them to leave me be, that I was fine and I liked to be alone sometimes. So I felt validated. That's one example. Maybe I just chose to internalize my dad's take on it instead of everyone else who seemed concerned that I wanted to be alone. We are able to choose our perceptions. I guess that's my point.. That we can focus on the negative messages and victimize ourselves, or focus on the positive ones and accept ourselves.

I mean, it's different if you grow up in an abusive environment and are barraged with negative messages about yourself--that's another thing.

And, if an INFJ teenager was complaining that the world didn't understand or appreciate them because of their "quietness" and they didn't fit in--yes,
I would suggest that they stop focusing on how wrong the world is and work on finding strength in themselves to adapt--to search for positive messages and not just focus on the negative ones.

You can't expect the world to change for you, and I agree that extroversion is the ideal--but it's just not my experience that introverts are persecuted for it.
I think that Westernized culture is very extroverted because... extroversion sells goods. And Western culture is consumer culture. I'm not saying introverts should just conform to it and fake it, I'm saying they should overcome it by realizing what bullshit it is and overcoming those expectations...

And, I didn't find anything enlightening about that video. I don't know. I watched it and it seemed... the opposite of enlightening..
Sorry, that's my interpretation.
 
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I've noticed that sometimes people ask introverts (even I've been asked this sometimes), "Why is he/she so quiet?"

Maybe you guys should ask extroverts, "why do you talk so much?" with utmost sincerity and curiosity when they are being gregarious. Treat it as an enigma. Make them question themselves so they don't accept their behaviour as the norm lol.
 
@Apone

The corporations who are obviously part of the wider agenda of keeping the status quo vet people through 'psychometric testing'

The agenda is worked out in various forums such as think tanks. here's a link to a wikipedia page showing some of the corporate members of the council on foreign relations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_the_Council_on_Foreign_Relations


@Stu the level of success you will have discussing such matters with teachers will depend on how open minded they are. Some people enforce whatever policy is dictated to them from above and will never stop to question it...how do you crack that nut?
 
Introverts aren't necessarily 'persecuted', but I do think that it's a valid complaint that extroverts do get preferential treatment.

I don't know how many of you 'toughen up' people are still in school, but that tends to be an environment where you're dealing with people who have been educated on how to be sensitive to the needs of their students-- if you're talking about the 'real world', then extroverts will almost always get ahead, because actual ability means nothing and social connections are pretty much everything. And it's much harder for introverts to make the kind of impression that a lot of employers are looking for-- and overall it's harder for them to fit in as well… especially since the people in charge are far more likely to be extroverts.

Like it or not, social connections are extremely important and if you can't prosper in social situations then it's going to be much harder for you… I guess there are 'quiet' social situations and there's nothing preventing an introvert from being confident, but at the same time, I haven't known too many extroverts who haven't done well… even when they're super annoying, they always seem to find people who like them and feel like they 'belong'.
 
niffer said:
I've noticed that sometimes people ask introverts (even I've been asked this sometimes), "Why is he/she so quiet?"

Maybe you guys should ask extroverts, "why do you talk so much?" with utmost sincerity and curiosity when they are being gregarious. Treat it as an enigma. Make them question themselves so they don't accept their behaviour as the norm lol.
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thank you [MENTION=3998]niffer[/MENTION] ! I will officially start doing it! :) :lol: seriously, why not.

EDIT: I go with "fake it till you make it" when it comes to job. It works for me. Actually it isn't such a great difficulty in general since job=isn't who I am, it is nothing private, so I can blabber and what not. As long as you leave an impression on someone that isn't bad and add some charms to it you can make it, I think. (with some work involved) Everything else — I can live with it after so many years, it might be better to be left alone sometimes.
 
Ada said:
EDIT: I go with "fake it till you make it" when it comes to job. It works for me. Actually it isn't such a great difficulty in general since job=isn't who I am, it is nothing private, so I can blabber and what not. As long as you leave an impression on someone that isn't bad and add some charms to it you can make it, I think. (with some work involved) Everything else – I can live with it after so many years, it might be better to be left alone sometimes.
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I do this too-- obviously I do or I probably wouldn't have a job. But I think it would be a lot easier/less stressful if I were more of a 'people person'… and if you're forcing yourself to become a different person while at work, you're sort of perpetuating the whole self-denial thing in some ways. What do you do during company ball games, parties, dinners and picnics? Those are the worst… people just assume that because I'm extroverted for my job that I hate them because I don't know what to do in those kinds of situations…
 
Apone said:
What do you do during company ball games, parties, dinners and picnics? Those are the worst… people just assume that because I'm extroverted for my job that I hate them because I don't know what to do in those kinds of situations…
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Those are the worst, yes. I sit quietly somewhere and eat something. Someone comes over, starts to ask me something (usually personal), I just say whatever comes to my mind, deep conversations at such parties are rare. If there's someone fun (in my twisted perception of "fun") then I stay for a bit, it becomes tolerable. If not then I try to gtfo as soon as I can, but never the first.
I'm not a people-person either. But some people like me, nevertheless, so they invite me... A vicious circle.
 
muir said:
The corporations who are obviously part of the wider agenda of keeping the status quo vet people through 'psychometric testing'
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Ugh it's true. Way back in the day I had to take those tests whenever I applied to crappy, low wage service jobs at big corporations. I lived in a rural area at the time where there just wasn't much else available. The questions were so idiotic and could be interpreted in so many different ways, but I was only allowed to "agree" or "disagree" "strongly" or "somewhat." They really think a stupid algorithm can predict someone's actions. One of the questions asked if I would tell a manager if I saw another employee steal a pen, lol. Another asked if I believe that politicians lie! My brother said he took one that asked if he "liked a good fight." Yes I guess everyone who likes to watch boxing and MMA is potentially violent and dangerous!! It was obvious that the test was trying weed out introverts or people who might have a problem with corrupt authority figures. They want people who are not bothered by injustice and will do anything to just keep getting by and only look out for number #1.
 
One of my favourite phrases said out of the blue: "You must be up to something..." :lol:
 
Apone said:
....extroverts will almost always get ahead, because actual ability means nothing and social connections are pretty much everything.
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This is true for most jobs, but there are quite a few positions in which that does not apply. In fact most of the mature and employed introverts I know have fairly responsible, well paid positions.
 
Another excellent point made in the book is the danger of group think, the US military has a term for it, called The Bus to Abilene
“the Bus to Abilene.” “Any army officer can tell you what that means,” Colonel (Ret.) Stephen J. Gerras, a professor of behavioral sciences at the U.S. Army War College, told Yale Alumni Magazine in 2008. “It’s about a family sitting on a porch in Texas on a hot summer day, and somebody says, ‘I’m bored. Why don’t we go to Abilene?’ When they get to Abilene, somebody says, ‘You know, I didn’t really want to go.’ And the next person says, ‘I didn’t want to go–I thought you wanted to go,’ and so on. Whenever you’re in an army group and somebody says, ‘I think...
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Susan Cain


 
Stu said:
Certainly American culture beats us over the head with the extroverted ideal. Introversion is often seen as a step toward depression.

Depression itself is treated as a disease. I recently listened to a Jungian Analyst point out that in Jungian psychology "depression" is not categorized as a disorder. When a client comes in and reports symptom of depression the Analyst outwardly offers sympathy but inwardly they are delighted because in that framework depression is a sign that things are ripe for significant change for that individual.

The video points out that we are pressuring a significant portion of our society into believing they are not good enough. We are also pushing our youth into adopting alien personality traits.

I have another round of parent teacher conferences coming up and as much as I would like to invite these teachers into to thinking about how they are unknowing tools of an oppressive society I know that to get them to reconsider their hard held preconceived notions another tact is called for.

Any suggestions?
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Could you try pointing out that it takes all kinds of people coming together to arrive at solutions that benefit all? I found a research article a few years back when I was in college that proved Diversity improves outcomes. They even translated it into dollars gained. The more the diverse the team - the better the company's bottom line was.

I don't have access to my home computer for now - or I'd post the link to the research article.
 
I take issue with the fact in the video it's stated introverts cannot multitask. I can do it - if left alone. Once I'm micromanaged - though - then it all falls apart.

Introverts are the dreamers....

If it weren't for us - then many MANY goods, services, and art would not exist in our world today. I have found over the years that I can come up with some great ideas. Then I look to the extroverts to help me make it happen. I realize my skills need to be coupled with other's skills in order to create. That's why I thrive in Team situations who all hold the same ethics.
[MENTION=1939]Stu[/MENTION]... that's another point you can talk with the teacher about.
 
Stu said:
This is true for most jobs, but there are quite a few positions in which that does not apply. In fact most of the mature and employed introverts I know have fairly responsible, well paid positions.
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Well, in some ways I can see it. It goes with the whole 'focused' thing-- if you're afraid to talk to people, then you're more focused on what you're doing. I suppose it depends on what your colleagues value-- introverts are probably less likely to coast on charm or by being the office comic relief.
 
[MENTION=5090]Apone[/MENTION] ....who said introverts were afraid to talk to people? (wtf?)
 
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