[PAX] Ratpack, sentimentality, hoarding..

[Elder]

I had a thought reading @Asa about gendering/personification of things.

I don't think I do this to any significant degree.

I tend to accumulate stuff only because I lack energy the to cull it.

Sporadically I will get frustrated with the accumulation and purge.

I have little difficulty moving away from my things.

I have interacted with people who have much more of an attachment to things in their life and find it very challenging to let go of them, even when to my eyes (and even at times to their words) the things are a problem in their life.

I tend to allow people to find their own path through their things (sometimes literally), but it has always been difficult for me to relate to.

I wonder if I just found the link that helps me understand.

For people who have a very personalized relationship to things, is that the value that trumps creating space in your life by letting go of things?

I had always seen it more from a scarcity lens, but now I see a potentially widened perspective. I have heard the words that some people have more sentimentality about things, but now maybe it is moving beyond language to a spirit understanding.

If you pack like a rat, are sentimental about your things, or have even wondered about being a "hoarder", show me how you see it.

I truly want to see.

 

[Wyote]

I am a naturally highly sentimental person and have had to work towards figuring out how to not make it a detriment in my own life.
On one hand though, if I lose things and the loss is out of my control, I can relatively easily and quickly move on.
I know for some sentimental people losing things can be incredibly devastating emotionally.
For me, having the thing, whatever it may be, is a physical gateway to my past experiences and memories.
It's a piece of/extension of my own life, in essence.
I am more ok with losing things because I know I can make my own record of them if need be.
It can still be kind of painful losing things though, like Harry destroying one of my horcruxes.
I've lost so many things at this point in my life, it feels more like a natural part of living so that makes it a bit easier too.
I wouldn't say I've ever been a "hoarder" per se, but given my own devices and infinite monies, I would have a lot of collections.
I love collecting and have always had several small collections of things.
Dragon figures, postcards, toy figures, swords, knives, lighters, POGs, MTG cards, Warhammer figures, rocks... and on and on.
These things have all enriched my life and marked eras throughout my personal history.

 

[Asa]

Great topic @ Elder!

I'm not that sentimental a person. Certain objects have emotional value to me, but I'm not particularly nostalgic or tender about most objects. I don't like owning a lot of stuff and I want everything I own to be useful or really, really cool. Art, music, and books can be useful... but I don't want to have too many.
Don't get me wrong: I appreciate maximalists and people who collect. I love a good collection and I love a well-decorated maximalist home. I, personally, don't want too much stuff. I have way too much cool stuff.

I do have object personification synaesthesia and ordinal linguistic personification synesthesia. I didn't realize these had labels until recently.
Objects have feelings. This can be about a significant object or something as random as a piece of fruit. It isn't a strong feeling for me, and I'm able to ignore it and use reason that inanimate objects do not have feelings. I know they don't have feelings, but this urge still exists.

It's also not every object. There are a lot of purely practical objects (like my dishwasher), or facsimiles of something real (prints/photos) or part of something real (feathers) that I never perceive as having feelings. Rocks can have feelings, though.

A LOT of people I know feel this way about cars. They name the car, gender the car, and won't let people say anything negative near the car. Do they know cars don't have feelings? Yes. Do they still have an inexplicable tendency to perceive the car as capable of feeling emotions? Also yes.

It does not make me more emotionally attached to objects or sentimental about most of them. It does often make me more careful about whom I give or sell objects to if I don't want them. I won't give items to people who intend to destroy them, for example.

 

[Elder]

For me, having the thing, whatever it may be, is a physical gateway to my past experiences and memories.
It's a piece of/extension of my own life, in essence.

Yes, I have felt this. It is a place in me that relates to this phenomenon of attachment to things, even if it doesn't manifest for me feeling an attachment to hanging on to the thing long-term. I do hang on to things like this for a while until the need to keep that experience close has diminished.

*I am thinking about how every time I move, something that once seemed important to have in my memorabilia no longer makes sense to keep.

Objects have feelings. This can be about a significant object or something as random as a piece of fruit. It isn't a strong feeling for me, and I'm able to ignore it and use reason that inanimate objects do not have feelings. I know they don't have feelings, but this urge still exists.

There is a part of me that believes everything is infused with life. A big part of me. As I reflect on your words, I realize that my attachment to living things doesn't preclude me letting go of a certain way a relationship has been formulated with the thing and allowing it to take another form. It isn't just feeling the living-ness of things, perhaps it is about attachment and relationship regardless of how much life/living we perceive a thing to have...

Reflecting...

A LOT of people I know feel this way about cars.

Oh, yes! I do have that. My aging red Prius, Ruby, and I have a strong working relationship!

 

[Wyote]

I do hang on to things like this for a while until the need to keep that experience close has diminished.

Do all feelings naturally diminish for you over time?
I'm wondering if diminishing feelings are in some way tied to sentimentality.
For me, having things brings those feelings back alive a little more richly and easily, and I often don't want to lose that, because I know over time other things take over and the past becomes a little dulled and out of focus.

 

[Matty]

I have a small number of very sentimental items, which I'll probably hang onto for years or decades. I also have a lot of books which I can't foresee getting rid of. Finally, I have a small number of favourite items, like my desk clock, a few pens, etc.

It's a bit annoying seeing the trajectory it's on, and it makes me very reluctant to buy anything I might especially like in the future.

All the object sentimentality I have seems to come from a disconnect between how little spontaneous sentimentality I have, and the importance the little sentiment I have is to me. The objects serve as prompts to remind me what matters.

For example, I have my deceased best friend's favourite cup. I don't think I'd ever think about my friend, if I didn't occasionally see the cup in my cupboard. Likewise, I keep a picture of my brother on a shelf. I don't know if I'd ever think about him, or remember to call him once in a blue moon, if I didn't have a picture. My crucifix also reminds me why I'm avoiding the debauched and vain way of living I used to indulge in.

It's painful to me, realising how un-spontaneous my sentimentality is, and the thought of going months or years without thinking about absent loved ones is disgusting to me. So I am protective of the items which reminds me about the most important things in my life.

 

[John K]

@Elder I've been thinking about the question you raised - why do people hold onto things beyond their utility, even if they start to get cluttered? For myself, there are several reasons why and some of them are similar to yours, Wyote's and Asa's. You mentioned inertia and that's certainly one of mine: I let things accumulate until suddenly I cross a threshold and have a big clear-out - there's a niggle of regret, especially when it's books (which seem to breed around us like rabbits) but they go all the same. Three years later, I'll spend hours looking for a book I know we've got, but sadly it was lost in one of these culls.

Another thing I hoard are letters. I've got all the letters I sent home to my parents from when I was in the Antarctic, and they are a bit like a diary. One of these days, I'll scan them and create typed fair copies to store on computer. I have about 20 years of letters that my mum received from an artist friend of hers, and these I have scanned and transcribed. She kept all kinds of press cuttings, exhibition leaflets and publications concerning his work, and I mounted these in a large archival quality binder. Interestingly, a guy is writing a book about this artist - I was put in touch with him by chance and this material has been used by him as a primary source. I've got a box of about 50 letters my dad sent to his parents in WW2 and those I'll scan and transcribe too one of these days.

I too keep things that hook me to my past. Photos of course - not just physical clutter either but masses of storage disk clutter on computer. I need to go and clear out the duff pictures and duplicates someday lol. I've got a few hundred photos of my family going back to 1899 too. These get closer to what Wyote was saying about identity, and I have other things too, only a few though, that extend who I am all the way back into my childhood.I've still got the little prayer book they gave us at school when we had our first holy communion, age 7 - I was clumsy as hell then (still am) and dropped it in the boys urinal so it's got a dodgy front cover, but that's all part of the delicious memory lol.

I think identity is perhaps the main reason why hoarding can get out of hand for some folks. There is someone in my family who lost their parents by the time they were in their late teens, and has no other close blood relatives. The contents of their parents' house is their family and they refuse to throw any of it out - their other half got desperate with all this and so got the garage converted into a storage area for all this stuff, otherwise it would take up all their living space. The person concerned becomes unstable if anyone tries to throw any of this stuff away, and tends to hoard other things too unless they are watched. I suspect this business of externalising your identity onto objects is a far more powerful cause of obsessive hoarding than personalising things. I certainly personalise some things, but if they are no longer needed and taking up valuable space, they have to go. I might mourn a particular item a bit, but then mortality is our lot, when all said and done. Some of the things I personalise that I'm most likely to keep hold of have an intrinsic aesthetic or scientific value - such as an old slide rule, a barograph I got from an auction house when I was 13, beautiful mechanical cameras from 30 - 50 years ago. I also hoard books of my favourite authors - one in particular is out of print and his books are actually fairly valuable. These are all authors that I reread over and over, though.

 

[Umai]

As with most things in life, I'm ambivalent.

I can cling to stuff till it piles up, then there might be a big clear out, and it feels refreshing.

The things that are most important to me - things like all the model aircraft I made as a kid that are still in my mother's attic - will probably be burned; I cannot countenance them in a stranger's hands. That's probably because they feel like an extension of my essence my destroying their essence feels most appropriate. Attachments to less sentimental items probably result from a self-preservational scarcity mindset or a symbolic expression of a sort of "spiritual impoverishment" - ? Not sure - can't put a finger on it, but I doubt it's an appealing quality.

OTOH, I don't want to accumulate much and have always been drawn to the idea of 'travelling light' in life; I don't want more than I need. My house, car and the things I have are just enough for my needs and no more. I think there's something just a little vulgar about material excess.

About cars, my VW Polo needed welding and had to be scrapped at 17 years and only 62,000 miles. I always hated that car and yet I still almost felt a wee tear. Weird.

 

[ThomasJ79]

Is it something we can even help? It seems to be a part of the human experience to collect and hold onto objects for their monetary and/or sentimental value. I have done a lot of thinking about this the last few years when my dad died, and when my mom almost died. With my mom, it would have been overwhelming to take in all of her valuables because she had an attachment to them.

When I die, I hope to not leave anyone with my own burden of pictures, personal work, and other items, simply because I could not decide what was worth saving vs not.

 

[Matty]

About cars, my VW Polo needed welding and had to be scrapped at 17 years and only 62,000 miles. I always hated that car and yet I still almost felt a wee tear. Weird.

Haha. I kept the manufacturer's badge off the front of my car when it was scrapped. It's in my top drawer.

 

[Elder]

Do all feelings naturally diminish for you over time?

...I think so?

I think it's a question that reflects something deeper I am still pondering...

...I appreciate the question and perspective...

I'm wondering if diminishing feelings are in some way tied to sentimentality.

Maybe...

So, are you saying/thinking that maybe sentimentality correlates to feelings that would otherwise diminish if not for the object holding it?

i think I read once that hoarding disorder behaviors are actually about unresolved grief.

It would fit.

Objects can healthily help one keep touch with important experiences.

If an experience goes unresolved, then accumulation of related objects would hold the experience for a person.

I suspect this business of externalising your identity onto objects is a far more powerful cause of obsessive hoarding than personalising things.

Yes, this also makes a lot of sense. If someone doesn't have a solid internal sense of self, they may allow objects to hold it for them?

That's probably because they feel like an extension of my essence

Related, yet a flipped perspective...it makes sense to my brain that objects hold an element of our essence when we have invested something in them.

I have done a lot of thinking about this the last few years when my dad died,

I suspect a recent death close to me and going on two months of managing this person's left behind stuff is a strong influence on my reflection of this topic.

I have a number of thoughts being fired by all the fabulous reflections. They feel fuzzy, unformed, and contradictory within me. I will keep reading and reflecting...

Thank you all for sharing of yourself. I asked the question somewhat idly and for the pleasure of the exploration, and I'm realizing quickly it is a topic deeply entangled for me. So, I appreciate each authentic reflection as it helps me turn the topic from angle to angle and see what gets reflected back.

 

[Wyote]

I think it's a question that reflects something deeper I am still pondering...

...I appreciate the question and perspective...

Same.
And thanks for the topic to ponder!

So, are you saying/thinking that maybe sentimentality correlates to feelings that would otherwise diminish if not for the object holding it?

i think I read once that hoarding disorder behaviors are actually about unresolved grief.

It would fit.

Objects can healthily help one keep touch with important experiences.

If an experience goes unresolved, then accumulation of related objects would hold the experience for a person

I think something along those lines yes.
This all is helpful and relevant for sure.
I think I have a healthy relation to objects in this sense, overall.
But I've also felt those unhealthy relationships as well and have also witnessed it in people around me.
Which is part of why I've worked towards being ok with letting things go.
I think I might understand the relational-trauma-bond to objects quite well/intimately.

 

[John K]

Yes, this also makes a lot of sense. If someone doesn't have a solid internal sense of self, they may allow objects to hold it for them?

Perhaps the stuff becomes their surrogate family in some way - we develop our sense of who we are in relation to our families, love them or hate them.

I have little difficulty moving away from my things.

My wife is very similar to you - maybe even more so. She has little sentimentality for things and they go in the bin as soon as they are no longer needed and cause disorder. She has a large collection of books and films about King Richard III though - she fell in love with him when she was 13 and has remained a champion for him ever since. Worryingly, she goes for the bad persona Richard almost as much as she does for the guy who was wrongly vilified by his successors because they had no genuine claim to the Throne of England.

 

[ThomasJ79]

I find I tend to weigh the overall keeping value based on a few different values:

1)pragmatic value- will it be more useful to hold onto just in case, such as a tool or material.
2)informational value -does an informational usefulness, such as references and records.
3) monetary value- it holds a value that is worth keeping, may also be a reason to sell to make money and clear up space.
4)sentimental value- it holds memories that are important for myself or family

It is of course more complicated than a list, but it helps me figure out the whys behind the whats.

 

[aeon]

i think I read once that hoarding disorder behaviors are actually about unresolved grief.

This, as well as sequelae from attachment and relational trauma.

Objects do not hurt us, objects do not abandon us.

Cheers,
Ian