Red Pill Documentary

[Ren]

This whole issue is a tough one, that’s for sure.

I think that in any cause or movement, inclusiveness is the key to sustainable change. When a country is torn apart by civil war and faces a transition, making sure all voices are heard is key for the transition to be peaceful, democratic and long-lasting, otherwise old wounds and resentment will sooner or later resurface and be exploited for unsavoury ends. On a different level, I think the same applies to feminism. As simple as that may sound, it must be envisaged not in terms of against, but in terms of with. It is a difficult cognitive and discursive leap to make, though, especially when you have “factions” such as the one displayed in the documentary who so deliberately seek to disrupt and prevent dialogue. From my experience, this is only true of a tiny fraction of “feminists”. A disarmingly innocent confession: I have met none quite like these in my life.

Maybe I’m genuinely naïve, but what I didn’t quite like about the documentary was precisely its shock value and its aim to present a narrative of rupture. I am not sure that it accurately represents the reality that most people, inside and outside feminism, experience. The feminism that I’m most exposed to certainly pushes for an agenda which is justified by the data we have about the wage gap, about how few women there are in positions of power worldwide, but not only that; it’s justified also by the fact that, from the testimonies of my friends at least, women are constantly harassed in the street, whistled at, insulted, in a way that men are not (not mansplaining, not mansplaining) or nowhere near as much. But it doesn’t accuse men as a whole, it simply exhorts them to join the movement for a change in the very norms that pervade society, and I do think men should join. If they can ignore the tiny “against” fraction and think in terms of “with”, why not join?

One of the obstacles, I think, is that people too often conflate changes in mentalities with ideology. And this opens an avenue for the extremists on both sides. But it is not true that pushing for a change in mentalities needs to be ideological. Equality, in all of its dimensions, is not ideological. But among all the things that it is, there is no doubt that it is inclusive, and so must be sought for in as inclusive a way as possible – both of men, women, and those who identify with neither gender. Without this, I’m afraid there can be no long-lasting positive change. So let's be inclusive

 

[Elis]

@Ren

The grime I have with feminism is that people seem to accept it and take it upon themselves without reflecting on the questions and proposed solutions at hand. It's easy to take a stance, while all the same missing out of what is actually on the table. I think we would all be better off in debates like these to talk about the specific matters at hand, rather than sweeping movements.

But with that said I agree with you. It's easy to lose ones head in heated discussions, doubling down on our convictions instead of working things through.

 

[Wyote]

Equality, in all of its dimensions, is not ideological.

And this, is where everything has gone awry.

there is no doubt that it is inclusive, and so must be sought for in as inclusive a way as possible – both of men, women, and those who identify with neither gender. Without this, I’m afraid there can be no long-lasting positive change. So let's be inclusive

:clapclap:

 

[Pin]

Our society is having a difficult time transitioning to an egalitarian one because the drive to dominate other people by any means necessary (kicking your opponent while they're down) is instinctive to humans. In my experience, largely men.

I imagine that this is for evolutionary reasons. The people with the most power, highest rank, have more opportunities to pass on their genes than a loser at the bottom of the dominance hierarchy.

 

[Reason]

Maybe I’m genuinely naïve, but what I didn’t quite like about the documentary was precisely its shock value and its aim to present a narrative of rupture. I am not sure that it accurately represents the reality that most people, inside and outside feminism, experience. The feminism that I’m most exposed to

From my experience, this is only true of a tiny fraction of “feminists”. A disarmingly innocent confession: I have met none quite like these in my life.

@Ren I don't think you really absorbed any of the deeper meaning of this documentary. Of course feminists aren't hostile to you- as far as i'm aware you are not a men's rights activists- nor have you ever tried to PUBLICLY demonstrate, debate, or expound on the uniquely male issues faced in the world today as articulated by the MRAs. Of course feminists like you when you agree with them, and of course your female friends empathize with you because they know you but the whole point of the documentary is about the view of men as being viewed as more hostile, more violent, and less deserving of sympathy to an outsider or a stranger.

Look at the incarceration issue: if you, Ren, were to be convicted of a crime- we on this forum would have an emotional response because we know you. However, a jury of both men and women (or a judge of either gender) can look at the case and be more likely to find you guilty than they would a woman, be more likely to execute you than they would a woman (if you were supposed to have committed said crime in the U.S. in a state where executions are still being carried out) and give you more prison time than they would a woman convicted of the same crime.

What you're proposing (that your feminist friends like you and therefore the documentary is dishonestly trying to paint a picture of there being a divide between men and women because of radical feminist ideology) is like saying that you went down to the beach, filled up a cup of water and since there were no fish in your cup there must not be any fish in the ocean.

It's very easy to have sympathy when your brother loses his children and everything he has in a divorce or your son gets drafted and dies horribly in a war or when a friend of yours is battered by an abusive girlfriend and the all the battery shelters refuse him because he's a man. It's not so easy to try to see a stranger's point of view when he has these experiences because feminism has convinced people that he has no right to complain because he is privileged and that everything in this world is tilted in his favor.

I don't think you've picked up on the most important part here Ren.

In my experience, largely men.

Your experiences are not everyone's experiences with regards to this subject. Perhaps obvious to say, but still worth mentioning.

 

[Reason]

I'm holding the people who plan to never watch the documentary but continue arguing this topic in low regard, it shows a distinct lack of security in one's beliefs.

In fact there are many people who are currently slandering the documentary saying that it was pro-rape, anti-woman, and a hate film for bigots to rally behind. I would very much like to hear from anyone who actually watched this fucking movie and didn't just read someone else's blog on it as to whether or not they actually believe that this film was pro-rape or any of the other things it is accused of being.

And whether or not it's creator Cassie Jay is an anti-woman... woman... some of this shit you don't even have to look up, just apply basic logic to it.

 

[acd]

@Ren I don't think you really absorbed any of the deeper meaning of this documentary. Of course feminists aren't hostile to you- as far as i'm aware you are not a men's rights activists- nor have you ever tried to PUBLICLY demonstrate, debate, or expound on the uniquely male issues faced in the world today as articulated by the MRAs. Of course feminists like you when you agree with them, and of course your female friends empathize with you because they know you but the whole point of the documentary is about the view of men as being viewed as more hostile, more violent, and less deserving of sympathy to an outsider or a stranger.

Look at the incarceration issue: if you, Ren, were to be convicted of a crime- we on this forum would have an emotional response because we know you. However, a jury of both men and women (or a judge of either gender) can look at the case and be more likely to find you guilty than they would a woman, be more likely to execute you than they would a woman (if you were supposed to have committed said crime in the U.S. in a state where executions are still being carried out) and give you more prison time than they would a woman convicted of the same crime.

What you're proposing (that your feminist friends like you and therefore the documentary is dishonestly trying to paint a picture of there being a divide between men and women because of radical feminist ideology) is like saying that you went down to the beach, filled up a cup of water and since there were no fish in your cup there must not be any fish in the ocean.

It's very easy to have sympathy when your brother loses his children and everything he has in a divorce or your son gets drafted and dies horribly in a war or when a friend of yours is battered by an abusive girlfriend and the all the battery shelters refuse him because he's a man. It's not so easy to try to see a stranger's point of view when he has these experiences because feminism has convinced people that he has no right to complain because he is privileged and that everything in this world is tilted in his favor.

I don't think you've picked up on the most important part here Ren.

I worked for years at a DV shelter. We had a few male victims and they were not turned away. We put them up in a motel and provided transport if needed as well as any legal aid and group therapy and case management.

And feminists have been the ones providing DV and sexual assault services and resources to male victims because feminists know that the system often completely disregards male victims.
The injustices you list aren't the result of feminism. But I think just ways in which the system which was set up by men also fails men, mainly those without wealth or power.

 

[Reason]

I worked for years at a DV shelter. We had a few male victims and they were not turned away. We put them up in a motel and provided transport if needed as well as any legal aid and group therapy and case management.

Doesn't mean there aren't men who are turned away by other facilities, watch the documentary and get some eyewitness testimony on this subject

The injustices you list aren't the result of feminism. But I think just ways in which the system which was set up by men also fails men, mainly those without wealth or power.

So not much privilege, eh? Are you starting to see why it is so fucking offensive to a lot of men when it is implied that they have all of the power in the world when they've spent their lives at the mercy of a broken or perhaps biased system and in some cases unable to get help for themselves?

 

[Pin]

 

[acd]

Doesn't mean there aren't men who are turned away by other facilities, watch the documentary and get some eyewitness testimony on this subject

So not much privilege, eh? Are you starting to see why it is so fucking offensive to a lot of men when it is implied that they have all of the power in the world when they've spent their lives at the mercy of a broken or perhaps biased system and in some cases unable to get help for themselves?

Which is what irks me about MRAs. Men who recognize the disadvantages in the system should actually work together with women toward a more egalitarian society.

And sorry! But I still gotta watch it. Working on blocking out a 2 hour (uninterrupted!) slot in my day to do so...

 

[invisible]

Just spending a bit of time reading some articles about the gender pay gap, in case anyone is interested, one at the commercial publication Fortune, "This Is the Biggest Myth About the Gender Wage Gap":

Factoring differences in education, experience, age, location, job title, industry and even company, our latest research reveals that the “adjusted” gender pay gap in the U.S. amounts to women earning about 94.6 cents per dollar compared to men. It is remarkable that a significant gap persists even after comparing male-female worker pay at the job title and company level. This smaller, yet still substantial pay gap is largely bias – whether intended or unintended – and it can’t be explained by the data. This is extremely costly to women. At today’s real median earnings for full-time working women of $39,621, that is a pay loss of $2,140 per year or more than $64,100 over a 30-year career.

There is also a way more thorough investigation by a Washington DC nonprofit called "Economic Policy Institute", "What is the gender pay gap and is it real?", also dealing with the idea of adjusted data.

The gender wage gap is a problem for women at every wage level. At each and every point in the wage distribution, men significantly out-earn women, although by different amounts...

These organisations are American, so they deal specifically with the situation in America. America is a leading OECD nation, although the distribution of wealth within the country is vastly unequal. So I'm not really sure how it is for other, less "economically developed" nations. I guess there would be a variation in the degree of pay disparity in other nations.

 

[Wyote]

So I'm not really sure how it is for other, less "economically developed" nations.

 

[invisible]

Yes, I suspect that it is probably very much worse for non-OECD nations.

 

[Wyote]

more than $64,100 over a 30-year career

Probably a better figure to try to pimp out to the masses to get them to pay attention.
Women: A life worth $50k less than a man's.

 

[invisible]

Probably a better figure to try to pimp out to the masses to get them to pay attention.
Women: A life worth $50k less than a man's.

Yes, it is an incredibly striking figure, difficult to dismiss.

 

[Wyote]

Per your info @invisible
"What is causing these persistent pay gaps? In our study, the single biggest cause we found is sorting of men and women into jobs and industries that pay differently throughout the economy."

 

[invisible]

Per your info @invisible
"What is causing these persistent pay gaps? In our study, the single biggest cause we found is sorting of men and women into jobs and industries that pay differently throughout the economy."

This phrase does not occur in either of the articles I posted. I supplied both of these articles from different types of organisation, one commercial and one non-profit, just for anyone who is interested in whether there really is valid and legitimate room for disagreement on the topic. I think that these articles show that there really is another legitimate perspective on this, and that my interest in advancing it is not due to my incompetence in approaching data sources or my willingness to invest further in my own beliefs. The article from Fortune is brief, but the article from EPI is thorough in its treatment of data and goes into detailed explanation of the reasons surrounding the gap. It is an outstanding piece of data journalism.

 

[Wyote]

This phrase does not occur in either of the articles I posted.

Weird how I found it

 

[James]

@invisible @Wyote @Reason With Logic Filling

I consider you all friends. My biggest concern with this thread, was that whilst I have no doubt the intention was to raise legitimate issues. It can amplify division.

Maybe I get paranoid, but who most benefits from division ? I think that's at least worth thinking about. In the same way I think some want to subvert feminism.

It won't work. Because in reality, people care about each other.

 

[James]

Oh and women can't drive. They just can't.

Don't even get me started on how they "try" to park. Lol. Ladies I'm kidding. I think I may really take some heat for this one. But it's the truth. (Lies). I can hardly believe we got this far without someone saying it.