Red Pill Documentary

I didn't construct my post as an attack on you @hush If the documentary doesn't support the ideas I have described, okay I'll take your word for it. You are right, I should watch before jumping to any conclusions. Lately I been exposed to many of these "backlash" ideas by Jordan Peterson and others. I can't say I have been very impressed

I have been reading about the film elsewhere. If the central hypothesis of the film is that, in the present day and age, women have it better than men, this idea can't really be supported by the facts. I would be lying if I didn't also find the title a little offputting. The idea that mens right movement is "the red pill" heroically exposing the truths that mainstream society can't stomach seems a little far fetched to me.
 
brightmoon said:
If the central hypothesis of the film is that, in the present day and age, women have it better than men, this idea can't really be supported by the facts.
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Nobody in their right mind would say this
 
brightmoon said:
You are right, I should watch before jumping to any conclusions.
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Yep.
brightmoon said:
I have been reading about the film elsewhere. If the central hypothesis of the film is that, in the present day and age, women have it better than men, this idea can't really be supported by the facts. I would be lying if I didn't also find the title a little offputting. The idea that mens right movement is "the red pill" heroically exposing the truths that mainstream society can't stomach seems a little far fetched to me.
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Well instead of reading what other people think about it, maybe you should find out for yourself. After all if it's a documentary full of bullshit there's not much danger of it convincing you, is there?
 
brightmoon said:
As a progressive I'm immediately suspicious of all this what I call "the backlash". Conservatives, who oppose progressive ideas anyway, seek to bolster their position by trying to convince everyone positions held by a tiny minority on the fringe are somehow representative of a whole social movement. The most radical feminist postion becomes the position of all feminists and anyone who supports feminism. Now all of the sudden reasonable ideas like equal pay for equal work and having workplaces free of sexual harassment are deemed to be radical by association.
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Well said. That's one thing that grinds my gears but couldn't articulate it as you have. People here agree that men and women should be as equals... And yet someone mentioned that women mustn't stomp over men to accomplish that. Which just illustrates the bolded. And so feminism becomes all about women stomping over men's rights. Men need their own liberation movement now to counter the efforts of women who just want equal opportunity and autonomy.
 
I look forward to the day when all of these causes just merge into the "Gender Rights" movement that deals with all these issues under the same umbrella so that we can get back to the business of laughing at the far right for being nutty instead of throwing half the population of this country to the far right bound and gagged because it's easy to blame their gender for everything. (Yes, I mean men.)
 
@acd to answer some of the points you made earlier

I thought custody was one of the areas where most people would agree that it's stacked against men.

It's not only men that are against abortions. You're effectively killing another living being. I'm not going to go all high and mighty and say that that can't be done, but who is to say that your opinion is right and others are crazy. And what about the father, should he have the same say over the life of his unborn child?

I don't think this is a question on sexism, but a philosophical question on who should have the rights to terminate another living beings life. A different matter all together.

As for the wage gap it is highly disputed. I don't have any statistics at hand but I've heard as much as that if we account for all the varying factors such as work hours put in and what not the actual wage gap in the US is minuscule. I've even heard as much as that the wage gap is tipped in favor of women in some bigger cities, though I can't back this up.
 
James said:
You of course mean me. That's entirely not what I said or meant. Read back though my posts. In none of them do I disagree with or argue against feminism.
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You don't argue against it. But then in what way are women stamping over men who agree with gender equality? Are you just talking about the extremists who don't actually represent the whole?
 
acd said:
You don't argue against it. But then in what way are women stamping over men who agree with gender equality? Are you just talking about the extremists who don't actually represent the whole?
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Exactly so.

I want to see women in every equal position of power than men. In every profession, pay etc, and on merit. I think many women have been treated badly by men personally, and are rightfully angry about it. But that's not all men.

I don't dismiss that for a moment. But I think it has brought some bad things.

To flip the coin. When you're a man you know in terms of child custody (in the UK) you've got almost no rights. Zero. This doesn't matter to dad's who don't care. It does to those who do.

The reason I'd say mens rights matter is the same reason I'd say women's rights matter. We're essentially the same.
 
Elis said:
As for the wage gap it is highly disputed. I don't have any statistics at hand but I've heard as much as that if we account for all the varying factors such as work hours put in and what not the actual wage gap in the US is minuscule. I've even heard as much as that the wage gap is tipped in favor of women in some bigger cities, though I can't back this up.
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A lot of feminists fail to account for longer hours worked by men in almost all fields of employment nor do they account for hazard pay (an overwhelming majority of men dominate fields of employment where workplace injury/death is commonplace) I won't say that this completely accounts for the wage gap, but it does exaggerate it at least to some degree.
 
Reason With Logic Filling said:
A lot of feminists fail to account for longer hours worked by men in almost all fields of employment nor do they account for hazard pay (an overwhelming majority of men dominate fields of employment where workplace injury/death is commonplace) I won't say that this completely accounts for the wage gap, but it does exaggerate it at least to some degree.
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I'd have to say the "equal pay" issue is very clearly unfair to women. I know there are other things to consider. But in that aspect, I think it's one of the reasons women are so angry. The feel like they're "ripped off".

But that's not by men generally. It's the culture we live in.
 
James said:
I'd have to say the "equal pay" issue is very clearly unfair to women. I know there are other things to consider. But in that aspect, I think it's one of the reasons women are so angry. The feel like they're "ripped off".

But that's not by men generally. It's the culture we live in.
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I think you're wrong on this one and I could try to dig up some statistics debunking the 77 cents on the dollar issue if you want. But let's say that you are right, how do you propose we would solve this?

Do you think it is fair to take legislative action against men to tackle this perceived discrimination, and if so to what extent?
 
Elis said:
Do you think it is fair to take legislative action against men to tackle this perceived discrimination, and if so to what extent?
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I don't think it's about taking action against men, it's about enforcing the law against crappy employers. Equal work. Equal pay.

Step outside the western democracy bubble and look at women's rights. Is it a good picture. I think if men want fair play, we need to see the bigger picture.
 
James said:
I don't think it's about taking action against men, it's about enforcing the law against crappy employers. Equal work. Equal pay.

Step outside the western democracy bubble and look at women's rights. Is it a good picture. I think if men want fair play, we need to see the bigger picture.
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If you talk about rest of the world then I agree. I want to remember a friends relative fighting for women's rights in India which I find very inspiring. But wouldn't that be a very different discussion all together part from our western world. I mean surely we should separate the two issues when talking about it. On one hand we have very repressed women in some parts of the world, and then we have western women who are not.

And as for equal work equal pay I think we're already there. When it's said that women on average make 77 cents on the dollar it doesn't even take into account what job or how many hours a week. When everything is being taken into account the wage difference is very small and in some areas even favorable for women.
 
Elis said:
If you talk about rest of the world then I agree. I want to remember a friends relative fighting for women's rights in India which I find very inspiration
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I think men who try to understand the situation women are in, realize why their anger is justified.
 
Elis said:
And as for equal work equal pay I think we're already there. When it's said that women on average make 77 cents on the dollar it doesn't even take into account what job or how many hours a week. When everything is being taken into account the wage difference is very small and in some areas even favorable for women.
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Where did you obtain the informational basis for these assertions, that the pay gap is already closed, and that wages are favourable for women? These remarks appear to contradict current scholarly thought and research on this issue, so I'm curious about their foundation. It was my understanding that in their work, researchers on this topic go to great lengths to account for the power of alternative variables to explain the gap by gender.
 
invisible said:
Where did you obtain the informational basis for these assertions, that the pay gap is already closed, and that wages are favourable for women? These remarks appear to contradict current scholarly thought and research on this issue, so I'm curious about their foundation. It was my understanding that in their work, researchers on this topic go to great lengths to account for the power of alternative variables to explain the gap by gender.
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I didn't say the wages are favorable for women, I said it is in some areas. As I recall its the case in some larger cities. As I said earlier however I can't back this up, I don't remember where I heard this.

As for the wage gap and 77 cents on the dollar, it was said by Barack Obama which I assume you've also heard before. It's been said in a variety of ways though, sometimes in the sense that it's for the same work which just doesn't seem to hold up at all, and some times said to be for any work whatsoever. This seem to hold up better, but doesn't as I mentioned take into account what kind of job or how many hours a week.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-obama-state-union-says-women-make-77-cents-/

A quick search and this came up, it's called politifact.com though so wouldn't take it at face value. But there are quite a lot of articles and other material showing up in quick searches so if you want to find better sources then I'm sure there are plenty.

My general takeaway on the pay gap as I see it seem to stem from people taking different jobs all together, working different hours and so forth.
 
Elis said:
And as for equal work equal pay I think we're already there. When it's said that women on average make 77 cents on the dollar it doesn't even take into account what job or how many hours a week. When everything is being taken into account the wage difference is very small and in some areas even favorable for women.
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The important aspect of the wage gap discussion as it pertains to "first world problems" is that men and women choose different professions and in addition to this more men are top tier earners. It has very little to do with an average man vs woman. They are very much on equal ground but again they do choose different professions and generally ones chosen by men have higher earning potential. So we have to either encourage women to go into those professions or give better pay to the professions they do choose. Society doesn't value those professions as highly, which is really fucking stupid imho.

Anyway, the whole 77 cents to a dollar bit is a complete lie. But there is disparity with regard to professions and women holding top positions.
 
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