Romney vs. Obama - 2nd debate - what did you think?

What is your suggestion as to how people should take responsibility into their own hands? Voting for president doesn't put any responsibility into your hands. How is not voting for president being unsupportive of anyone fighting back? I what way are these imaginary people fighting back had how does voting support them?

I'll interrupt.
But it could start by finding a councilmen (person)
Fight local to make a change.
Run for representative and get into congress.

Find an organization. Volunteer and become part of a greater cause.
You'll find there are people with verve so strong you pale standing next to them. But that shouldn't stop you.
The red dwarf thing is a billion years away. There's a lot you can do in the mean time.

It's how change was made before, and it's how change will happen again.

If knowing we need it and need you does nothing, then stay home.
 
[video=youtube;DSbxBQhzk3M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSbxBQhzk3M[/video]
 
I heard this on NPR this morning
it is six proposals that conservative and liberal economists agree on

The proposals

One: Eliminate the mortgage tax deduction, which lets homeowners deduct the interest they pay on their mortgages. Gone. After all, big houses get bigger tax breaks, driving up prices for everyone. Why distort the housing market and subsidize people buying expensive houses?
Two: End the tax deduction companies get for providing health-care to employees. Neither employees nor employers pay taxes on workplace health insurance benefits. That encourages fancier insurance coverage, driving up usage and, therefore, health costs overall. Eliminating the deduction will drive up costs for people with workplace healthcare, but makes the health-care market fairer.
Three: Eliminate the corporate income tax. Completely. If companies reinvest the money into their businesses, that's good. Don't tax companies in an effort to tax rich people.
Four: Eliminate all income and payroll taxes. All of them. For everyone. Taxes discourage whatever you're taxing, but we like income, so why tax it? Payroll taxes discourage creating jobs. Not such a good idea. Instead, impose a consumption tax, designed to be progressive to protect lower-income households.
Five: Tax carbon emissions. Yes, that means higher gasoline prices. It's a kind of consumption tax, and can be structured to make sure it doesn't disproportionately harm lower-income Americans. More, it's taxing something that's bad, which gives people an incentive to stop polluting.
Six: Legalize marijuana. Stop spending so much trying to put pot users and dealers in jail — it costs a lot of money to catch them, prosecute them, and then put them up in jail. Criminalizing drugs also drives drug prices up, making gang leaders rich.
There you have it, six major proposals that have broad agreement, at least among economists. Though we should note that there were some pretty significant quibbles about just how to implement the income-tax and carbon-tax proposals.
 
If you stop asking questions, you'll never learn anything new.

How true and unrelated to my post.

I'll interrupt.
But it could start by finding a councilmen (person)
Fight local to make a change.
Run for representative and get into congress.

Find an organization. Volunteer and become part of a greater cause.
You'll find there are people with verve so strong you pale standing next to them. But that shouldn't stop you.
The red dwarf thing is a billion years away. There's a lot you can do in the mean time.

It's how change was made before, and it's how change will happen again.

If knowing we need it and need you does nothing, then stay home.

That all sounds great and I support those things...and they have nothing to do with voting for president. The red dwarf thing was Billys comment anyways (I think).
 
How true and unrelated to my post.

Only because I want what I meant to make sense. Not that this will help. But
you were contemplated the candidates and the charade of voting. All I'm saying it seemed to me like a defeated thing to say. I just suggested not giving up because you had all the answers.
Maybe I got it wrong.

That all sounds great and I support those things...and they have nothing to do with voting for president. The red dwarf thing was Billys comment anyways (I think).

You were talking about taking responsibility and voting and its value.
What I'm saying is get involved. Change something. Resignation adds no value.
Can't complain if you're not willing to fight.
 
Only because I want what I meant to make sense. Not that this will help. But
you were contemplated the candidates and the charade of voting. All I'm saying it seemed to me like a defeated thing to say. I just suggested not giving up because you had all the answers.
Maybe I got it wrong.



You were talking about taking responsibility and voting and its value.
What I'm saying is get involved. Change something. Resignation adds no value.
Can't complain if you're not willing to fight.

It seems this is how all these discussions go with me. The meme that voting is important is so vital to people sense of right/wrong/patriotism/etc./whatever that to suggest that voting for president is ill-advised, just sends people heads spinning. The rebuttals I get are always about how I should get involved. What does getting involved have to do with the validity of a vote for president? Secondly people seem to believe that if you dont vote, you arent entitled to complain. That is a idiotic notion.
 
It seems this is how all these discussions go with me. The meme that voting is important is so vital to people sense of right/wrong/patriotism/etc./whatever that to suggest that voting for president is ill-advised, just sends people heads spinning. The rebuttals I get are always about how I should get involved. What does getting involved have to do with the validity of a vote for president? Secondly people seem to believe that if you dont vote, you arent entitled to complain. That is a idiotic notion.

My position is people died fighting for the right. I don't have a problem with whether someone votes or doesn't.
What I do have a problem with is irreverence. Being obnoxious and irreverent are different.

It's kinda like you live in this house where we all live. You don't like the roof or the floor. You can't get us to agree to changing its color to something you like, so you stop cleaning it.

It's our house. It's our roof. It's our floor.
More of us have to like your color than not to change it. But it's still your house. Unless you move out, it's your responsibility to help clean it.

That make sense.
 
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potato tomato

A deduction isn't a subsidy. I hate when people say that.


I have to disagree. the mortgage interest deduction rewards people for borrowing money to pay for the place they live in. They generally benefit to the tune of several hundred to several thousand dollars in money not paid to the Federal gov. This encourages them to borrow money from the banks who benefit by having more folks paying interest. It also boosts the house building industry and the real estate business. While it is not a direct payment from the government to the interest payer it amounts to the same thing.

The question is, should we really be doing it?
 
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My position is people died fighting for the right.
People died fighting for a lot of things, why is this the one you want to support?
I don't have a problem with whether someone votes or doesn't.
What I do have a problem with is irreverence. Being obnoxious and irreverent are different.

It's kinda like you live in this house where we all live. You don't like the roof or the floor. You can't get us to agree to changing its color to something you like, so you stop cleaning it.

It's our house. It's our roof. It's our floor.
More of us have to like your color than not to change it. But it's still your house. Unless you move out, it's your responsibility to help clean it.

That make sense.

sure that makes sense but it doesn't mean I should vote. It's not even on topic. This thread isn't about volunteerism or fixing the system, it's about voting for president. Bottom line is neither candidate is good enough, and even if they were good enough you vote really doesn't matter because you aren't on the electoral college. Well maybe you are on the e.c., are you?
 
People died fighting for a lot of things, why is this the one you want to support?

sure that makes sense but it doesn't mean I should vote. It's not even on topic. This thread isn't about volunteerism or fixing the system, it's about voting for president. Bottom line is neither candidate is good enough, and even if they were good enough you vote really doesn't matter because you aren't on the electoral college. Well maybe you are on the e.c., are you?

Well if you don't agree smacking a small child is a bad thing. How can I convince you.

I think you should have respect for those that fought for the privileges we have. It seems ungrateful otherwise.
Yeah, a lot of people die for a lot of things. Some are honorable. Some aren't. Some are selfless and some are self preservation. At the end of the day. You choose. Me, I fight for my country.
I realize there are a bunch of idiots I don't agree with. But I don't need to take it that far. It's a call of duty. And you live honorably by answering that call.
That's just who I am. May sound funny.
But it's hard to run into a situation and fight, or defend if you ask questions the whole way. Will I get hurt. Will my mommy miss me.

Voting is the same thing. It's a duty. And it's an order. You do what you have to do. The EC works in a lot of scenarios.
Imagine there are 150 million people living in CA that are all Jerry fans. They think his face should be the new flag.
The rest of the country doesn't even know who Jerry is.
So CA gets so many points along with everyone else. If it were popular vote alone, we'd all have Jerry of the flag. For some that's a good thing. And some of us would just be pissed off.
But you still have your honor, your duty, and vote.
 
Well if you don't agree smacking a small child is a bad thing. How can I convince you.

I guess you will just have to use logic and rationality instead of common ground.

I think you should have respect for those that fought for the privileges we have.
A chance to vote for president with a ballot worth zero votes. Wow what a privilege. Granted all the other votes count and that is meaningful, conspiracies aside.

It seems ungrateful otherwise.
Yeah, a lot of people die for a lot of things. Some are honorable. Some aren't. Some are selfless and some are self preservation. At the end of the day. You choose. Me, I fight for my country.
I realize there are a bunch of idiots I don't agree with. But I don't need to take it that far. It's a call of duty. And you live honorably by answering that call.
That's just who I am. May sound funny.
But it's hard to run into a situation and fight, or defend if you ask questions the whole way. Will I get hurt. Will my mommy miss me.

Voting is the same thing. It's a duty. And it's an order. You do what you have to do. The EC works in a lot of scenarios.
Imagine there are 150 million people living in CA that are all Jerry fans. They think his face should be the new flag.
The rest of the country doesn't even know who Jerry is.
So CA gets so many points along with everyone else. If it were popular vote alone, we'd all have Jerry of the flag. For some that's a good thing. And some of us would just be pissed off.
But you still have your honor, your duty, and vote.

I guess I am just not convinced that casting my vote-that-doesnt-count is meaningful. The EC will vote how they want anyways. I recall reading that they have voted against the popular vote at least 4 times with no repercussions. 200+ years, 4 mistakes. Ok thats not too bad of odds, but I think it should be better for something as important that people die over.

Your next question naturally should be "What are you , UBERROGO, doing to fix it?" I am not doing anything to fix that atm, I am busy doing other things. I may or may not join a campaign to fix it in the future. There is no telling what the future has in store for me, but in the meantime I am doing my own thing.
 
I have to disagree. the mortgage interest deduction rewards people for borrowing money to pay for the place they live in. They generally benefit to the tune of several hundred to several thousand dollars in money not paid to the Federal gov. This encourages them to borrow money from the banks who benefit by having more folks paying interest. It also boosts the house building industry and the real estate business. While it is not a direct payment from the government to the interest payer it amounts to the same thing.

The question is, should we really be doing it?

You disagree on what a word means? Maybe we shouldn't be doing it, maybe it's stupid but it's still not a subsidy. It is a deduction; a tax break. It is not a subsidy. If I pay less taxes than you because of tax breaks, it doesn't take money out of your pocket. So, your tax dollars are not subsidizing the housing market. Renters don't subsidize those who own homes, etc. That's not how it works. Twisting words like that, well it sucks. It's lying actually. It makes those who don't own homes think they're paying for those who do, that their money is doing something that they don't want it to do. That's not what is happening.

If you're going to make a word do a lot of work like that, then you should pay it extra. ;)
 
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I guess you will just have to use logic and rationality instead of common ground.


A chance to vote for president with a ballot worth zero votes. Wow what a privilege. Granted all the other votes count and that is meaningful, conspiracies aside.



I guess I am just not convinced that casting my vote-that-doesnt-count is meaningful. The EC will vote how they want anyways. I recall reading that they have voted against the popular vote at least 4 times with no repercussions. 200+ years, 4 mistakes. Ok thats not too bad of odds, but I think it should be better for something as important that people die over.

Your next question naturally should be "What are you , UBERROGO, doing to fix it?" I am not doing anything to fix that atm, I am busy doing other things. I may or may not join a campaign to fix it in the future. There is no telling what the future has in store for me, but in the meantime I am doing my own thing.

It's only the next question if you complain. If you're ok with it the way it is, then it's your business what you do.

My mother in law complains all the time.
She talks about the imaginary person that should have fixed her lawn, driveway, shovel, the plumbing. Shes mad at this imaginary person that doesn't exist, but somehow she accepts no responsibility because it was this imaginary persons fault. Her husband that left 169 years ago is the culprit.
It's his fault the insurance wasn't paid. She just cleaned the house and threw the form in the garbage. Ask her and she says "oh I don't know about that stuff." What??? It's your freaking life. It's your freaking house. She yells at the insurance agent cause they let the policy expire. They should have called her.

My point is its fine if you don't care about paying the insurance. It's fine if you lose your ass getting sued. But it's your choice. Dont go around blaming others for a situation you're not willing to change. We all have things to do. We are all faced with the challenge of doing thr extra work to volunteer or get involved. It's not asking more of you than it is me. So people aren't interested in listening to people complain. We know what it means to do the extra work. And most of us don't because it's not that important. But most people don't feel they earned the right to complain when they aren't willing to sacrifice.

Not that I don't understand. I'm not losing time doing what I want. With who I want. My cousin can hug a tree all he wants and he does. Not that I think he's silly for doing it. I'm just busy doing something else. But when the trees are gone ill have no one the point fingers at.
That's all.
 
it's still not a subsidy. It is a deduction; a tax break. It is not a subsidy. ..................Twisting words like that, well it sucks. It's lying actually.

If I choose not to borrow money to buy the place I am living in I pay more in taxes. That is money out of my pocket.

http://www.georgescoville.com/2011/07/03/some-thoughts-on-direct-subsidies-vs-tax-credits/
Let’s take two countries with balanced $10 billion budgets, Country A and Country B. But the next year, Country A decides to offer a $1 billion tax credit to farmers and Country B decides to spend $1 billion in direct farm payments.
Country A
Farmers have an extra $1 billion in their pockets
Deficit: $1 billion
Country B
Farmers have an extra $1 billion in their pockets
Deficit: $1 billion
In both cases, farmers have an extra $1 billion and future taxpayers are on the hook to pay for what the government borrowed to pay for other spending. There might be an efficiency difference between administering a tax credit versus cutting checks, but unless there’s a difference in the governments’ other fiscal choices, the outcome looks just the same even though Country B’s spending is 10% higher than Country A’s.
Is Country A just letting people keep their hard-earned money while Country B is a big spender?

 
It's only the next question if you complain. If you're ok with it the way it is, then it's your business what you do.

My mother in law complains all the time.
She talks about the imaginary person that should have fixed her lawn, driveway, shovel, the plumbing. Shes mad at this imaginary person that doesn't exist, but somehow she accepts no responsibility because it was this imaginary persons fault. Her husband that left 169 years ago is the culprit.
It's his fault the insurance wasn't paid. She just cleaned the house and threw the form in the garbage. Ask her and she says "oh I don't know about that stuff." What??? It's your freaking life. It's your freaking house. She yells at the insurance agent cause they let the policy expire. They should have called her.

My point is its fine if you don't care about paying the insurance. It's fine if you lose your ass getting sued. But it's your choice. Dont go around blaming others for a situation you're not willing to change. We all have things to do. We are all faced with the challenge of doing thr extra work to volunteer or get involved. It's not asking more of you than it is me. So people aren't interested in listening to people complain. We know what it means to do the extra work. And most of us don't because it's not that important. But most people don't feel they earned the right to complain when they aren't willing to sacrifice.

Not that I don't understand. I'm not losing time doing what I want. With who I want. My cousin can hug a tree all he wants and he does. Not that I think he's silly for doing it. I'm just busy doing something else. But when the trees are gone ill have no one the point fingers at.
That's all.

I see, so really you had nothing to say about the debate at all.

Hopefully [MENTION=6042]Faltizan[/MENTION] will chime back in to the question I asked him, and you decided to interrupt with your nonsense.
 
I see, so really you had nothing to say about the debate at all.

Hopefully [MENTION=6042]Faltizan[/MENTION] will chime back in to the question I asked him, and you decided to interrupt with your nonsense.

You're fun.
Pretty simple.
Based on what do you think your vote is useless. The EC isn't a conspiracy. Your state legislators execute the vote.
But you're saying regardless of the popular vote, or districts voting, the legislators will just vote however they feel. Huge ramifications don't you think.
Might not get reflected or worse for disenfranchising the people.
I don't subscribe to the conspiracy.
And if everyone felt their vote were useless, them there would be no vote.

It's all the same theme. We all need to participate. Go back to the first posts I made in this conversation. You live here. It's your house. Now take care of it and do your part.

What about the part that you are privileged to even vote. Have you been anywhere where the people can't participate in a meaningful way.
But you question the meaning.
Because you don't get to have your one vote that determines the outcome.

I thought you had a point.
I'm starting to think you are just argumentative.
 
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