Satya's Ethics of Belief

[Satya]

hamlet?! flabbergasted!! like as if!!! i am so not even close to being the hamlet here. rosencrantz maybe? i'm feeling so nonliterary right now.

If you continue to make posts irrelevant to the discussion, then I will move the thread to Blogs and ban you from the thread. You have the choice not to read or post in threads which you do not like, and I ask you only to act as a mature adult and utilize that ability if you find it necessary.

 

[invisible]

well this certainly comes as a surprise! i had imagined both that my posts were relevant (or else i wouldn't have bothered typing them all in), and that i was a mature adult. thank you for kindly disabusing me of these notions! there is no way i would dream of contributing to this thread again. i'm so relieved that these matters have been resolved in such an efficient manner. humble blessings, good tidings, and all the rest, whatever.

 

[InvisibleJim]

If you continue to make posts irrelevant to the discussion, then I will move the thread to Blogs and ban you from the thread. You have the choice not to read or post in threads which you do not like, and I ask you only to act as a mature adult and utilize that ability if you find it necessary.

Did you just fail your own ethical standards?

 

[Satya]

Did you just fail your own ethical standards?

Did he provide some evidence? Did he make an argument? Did he present any ideas?

From my perspective, all he did was post nonsense. If there was some greater meaning behind his posts that I missed, then please share. To me, it came across as nothing but someone trying to derail a thread by posting random crap, but perhaps he had some purpose or intention I am not seeing.

 

[just me]

There is evidence we all tend to think, judge, feel, perceive, ecetera, differently. Why do you insist everyone sees things your way, which I personally see no ethics in whatsoever? My moral standards and yours are like night and day. Are not ethics moral standards? Why do you try to destroy others' beliefs and faith; so they/we can be like you? I am happy THE WAY I AM! Are you?

"6/5 acts with quiet confidence, coming from a place of peaceful faith." mindheart.org

Your entire argument seems against the very fundamental awareness of individuality. You hold your reason in such high regards, yet you fail to reason why I posted my post earlier. Not even an attempt was made. I postulate reason cannot always define things. Reason, alone, is but a crutch to help one walk. To walk uprightly and properly, one must use other tools offered humanity. Reason, coupled with human frailties, can deceive our perception when used with blinders. Is not this what you reason faith to do to people?


Why does one person say a bed is too hard and another say the bed could be a little better? Yet another accepts the bed the way it is? I guess it has a lot to do with how each person looks at things and how each person wishes to be seen or understood. The one stating the bed is hard could be a complainer; yet, another could be trying to bring it to someone else's attention so maybe things could be better for others. We are all so different.

No matter what my intention, I will try my best to abstain from arguing with someone just to prove the way I feel. Others may argue til the day they die. Yet others may try and share with someone else how they are perceived in so doing. Constructive criticism is still criticism, and many people unfortunately take it as negativity when meant with good intentions. The repetitive nature of someone obsessed with something can get frustrating to watch or listen to. It would be likened unto digging up bones over and over again. The movie "Ground Hog Day" comes to mind.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Did he provide some evidence? Did he make an argument? Did he present any ideas?

From my perspective, all he did was post nonsense. If there was some greater meaning behind his posts that I missed, then please share. To me, it came across as nothing but someone trying to derail a thread by posting random crap, but perhaps he had some purpose or intention I am not seeing.

You stated that all view points are worth considering then attempt to exclude a viewpoint.

Even irrational viewpoints have purpose when you consider they provide the human element in decision making which ultimately transcends into gaugeable data.

 

[Satya]

You stated that all view points are worth considering then attempt to exclude a viewpoint.

I believe you have misunderstood. I argued that studying, researching, making a genuine attempt to gather as much information as possible, and critically evaluating that information is the ethical approach to acquiring and affecting belief. From evaluating his posts I see no viewpoint or argument, simply an attempt to derail a thread. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Even irrational viewpoints have purpose when you consider they provide the human element in decision making which ultimately transcends into gaugeable data.

Interesting opinion but irrelevant.

 

[Satya]

There is evidence we all tend to think, judge, feel, perceive, ecetera, differently. Why do you insist everyone sees things your way, which I personally see no ethics in whatsoever? My moral standards and yours are like night and day. Are not ethics moral standards? Why do you try to destroy others' beliefs and faith; so they/we can be like you? I am happy THE WAY I AM! Are you?

Why do we try to cure schizophrenics? Wouldn't they be happier in their delusions that they are kings and queens of their own little reality? Why would we try to destroy their belief and faith in those delusions? If they are happy with who they are, whether they believe the are Barack Obama or the King of the Mafia, why would we challenge it?

The answer is because it affects us. A schizophrenic can't be the president of the United States just because they believe they are the president of the United States. At some point their delusion has to be challenged no matter how unhappy that might make them.

By the same token your beliefs affect me since they affect the decisions you make and the way you vote in the political process. Your vote helps decide what children learn in schools, what people can do with their bodies, what relationships are recognized by society, and so forth. When your beliefs are not based on the study and a critical evaluation of information but on dogma, then you are choosing to affect others without understanding the full perspective and without any empathy for your fellow human beings. As such, you force me to challenge your dogma in order to get you to understand my perspective and in order to get you to recognize my point of view so that you understand how your actions based on your beliefs affect me.

For some reason, just me, you seem to live in a world in which you think your beliefs and actions have no consequences for others. But they do, and because you pretend they don't, I am forced to challenge them directly. If you do not critically evaluate your beliefs, then I will do it for you.

 

[InvisibleJim]

I believe you have misunderstood.

I understood perfectly, I merely argued that you wish to remove an entire layer of abstract thought and action because your system doesn't allow for it when infact the system should be adapted to account for all potential outcomes. Cherry picking doesn't seem wise.

 

[the]

I base my ethical arguments, not on dogma, but on the evidence of humanity's sum technological and scientific development which has allowed us to expand civilization and to progress in our understanding of ourselves and the world around us. By contrast, dogma is the major source of human stagnation, only serving to unify humans against one another in groups set in an endless battle of moral supremacy and driven to act in the most inhumane ways to one another in a mindless adherence to their unethically developed belief systems.

You are just trading one dogma you don't like for another dogma that you do like. Stop trying to disguise your beliefs as something more than just your personal desires and wants. Deal with people straight forwardly for a change. In your view dogma is stagnating the human race, in anothers view dogma is giving people something to work from to build somethign greater. You are completely unable to see things from a point of view outside of yourself.

 

[just me]

I was taught some people had the "I" mentality. Christianity is about what He did. People with an "I" mentality? Different subject. It is all about them, of course; what they did or what they do.

I try my best to be as warm with my words as I can. However, being it is all about me now and all about the way I believe, let me share some of my thoughts.

Blame my parents. That's right; they brought me up in a loving family and took me to church. Heck, if they were both gay I wouldn't even be here right now. Ever think about that? Gays need people like me. What do they want next? Tell me how to live my life and how I should see things? How I should believe and in what? Did you ever stop to think I might just be right and you wrong? If all guys were only with guys and gals with gals, we wouldn't need a set of ethics for those that follow us, now would we? Everyone would just die off.

The problem with asking me to adjust my beliefs so you can justify your lifestyle? It is none of your business, and nothing but pure selfishness. You are wasting your time and frustrating yourself for nought.

I force you to do nothing; your reasoning must be messed up if you think so and you are delusional. If I affect you as much as you say, maybe I should preach and start a church. Maybe I should be a preacher.

What you really are saying is people that are not like you are causing you problems.
Stop blaming everyone else and look in the mirror.

 

[Peppermint]

Why do we try to cure schizophrenics? Wouldn't they be happier in their delusions that they are kings and queens of their own little reality? Why would we try to destroy their belief and faith in those delusions? If they are happy with who they are, whether they believe the are Barack Obama or the King of the Mafia, why would we challenge it?

The answer is because it affects us. A schizophrenic can't be the president of the United States just because they believe they are the president of the United States. At some point their delusion has to be challenged no matter how unhappy that might make them.

Wow, I wouldn't expect someone upholding rationality and critical thinking to make this sort of fallacious argument, which is in the lieu of bigots who say things about how homosexuality leads to or is comparable to pedophilia, zoophilia , incest etc.

I have no idea where you got this, but I'm pretty sure schizophrenia doesn't make people who have it happy. It's an actual mental illness with biological causes which is quite debilitating to the schizophrenic and hardly comparable to religious belief, and is treated not only because the affected person is a potential threat to others, but also to themselves.

 

[Bird]

None of you have a fucking clue except for Peppermint.

 

[Satya]

You are just trading one dogma you don't like for another dogma that you do like. Stop trying to disguise your beliefs as something more than just your personal desires and wants. Deal with people straight forwardly for a change. In your view dogma is stagnating the human race, in anothers view dogma is giving people something to work from to build somethign greater. You are completely unable to see things from a point of view outside of yourself.

If it makes you feel better to argue that my reasoning is a "dogma" when I have actually presented evidence to support it, then feel free. It doesn't sound to me like you really understand the concept of "dogma".

All I did was argue that ignoring evidence, arguments, and ideas which might tend to create doubt about long-held assumptions is the unethical approach to acquiring and affecting belief. I argued that it was unethical because I cannot see how it benefits man in any way, but if you can name some ways, then I would be happy to hear them and reconsider my argument.

 

[Satya]

I understood perfectly, I merely argued that you wish to remove an entire layer of abstract thought and action because your system doesn't allow for it when infact the system should be adapted to account for all potential outcomes. Cherry picking doesn't seem wise.

I'm still waiting for your evidence that he wasn't simply trying to derail my thread.

If you can show me that wasn't his intention, then I would welcome his perspective with open arms.

 

[Satya]

...is treated not only because the affected person is a potential threat to others, but also to themselves.

I don't know if you have been reading, but that is what dogma does. It makes a person a threat, not only to themselves, but to others as well. If I used my eyesight the same way a person inhibits their thinking with dogma, then chances are I would be hit by a train simply because I refused to see it.

 

[Satya]

What you really are saying is people that are not like you are causing you problems.
Stop blaming everyone else and look in the mirror.

So it is my fault that you oppose same sex marriage and allowing gay couples to adopt children based on your views of homosexuality? It's my fault that you vote for people who will make laws to outlaw those things? It is my fault that your actions based on your beliefs have an affect on my life?

You are the one who is delusional just me. Your beliefs have consequences for others. Stop pretending they don't!

 

[Satya]

@just me , @Hoggle , @Bird , @jesin , @InvisibleJim , [MENTION=862]Flavus Aquila[/MENTION]

Since most of you seem to only be in this thread to attack me rather than understand my perspective, let me tell you a story.

I was raised by my grandmother. When I was in my 20s she developed a lump in her breast which she did not tell anyone about. Because of all the crap she read on the internet she was afraid of doctors to the point that she refused to go to one. She read all sorts of stuff on the internet of people selling all sorts of snake oil cures for cancer. She spent tons of money on these things because she believed the pseudoscience they spouted to support their fake medicine. My grandmother had a whole hell of a lot of life experience, but no critical thinking skills.

I watched my grandmother get sick, but I did not know how bad she was. I tried relentlessly to get her to take a critical approach to what she read on the internet, but she believed every conspiracy theory that was out there. By the time my grandmother went to the hospital, her breast cancer had metastasized throughout her bones and she had fractures from head to toe. She died two weeks later after having endured months of pain and agony.

Trust me, I would take my critical thinking skills over my grandmother's entire life experience any day.

The consequences of my grandmother's beliefs and her lack of critical thinking caused not only her to suffer, but my entire family from the pain of losing her. If you have ever watched someone you love slowly die from a terminal illness, then perhaps you can understand the impact that has.

It could have all been avoided and she could still be here today. That is what hurts me the most to this day.

Call me what you want and question my motives all you want, but I will always call blind faith in intuition a disease. Nothing has caused me more pain in life.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Someone would do better to chill out and accept that a forum means debate, not blind acquiesence.
I note that I estoled the virtues of the OP earlier as being on the cusp of human greatness *whistles to self*

 

[just me]

Your way of life simply will not work for everyone. How will you adopt children if everyone is gay like you? Who will have the children? Raise the children all up as gay and who will continue the human race? It does not work, nor was it meant to be. There is inordinate affection on both sides, not just one, of this story. My side, too! Everything on my side has its limitations and parameters, also. Guidelines are to help, not to imprison. Guidelines are not just for gays.

Your story has nothing to do with the way you think. Good story, though. Religious faith is strong; faith in snake oil, weak. Thousands of years versus a TV commercial? Come on. Don't play the sympathy card on people. This is all about you. Years of observations tell me this. Your grandmother surely had some good life experiences, but you would choose your critical thinking over her entire life experience? I value my Grandmother and hold her picture in the highest regard. She hated hospitals and doctors. She died in her late eighties. Wonderful woman.