Saved From What?

[Skarekrow]

No, that's not what's going on at all.

What's happening is that I have shown over and over again how God declares in his Word that apart from God-given faith in his Son, Jesus Christ, everyone will be justly cast into Hell for their sins.

Naturally, people don't like that message, and so they make personal attacks on me.

It's just that simple.

Nevertheless, the declaration of Scripture is the final authority, and if God doesn't save you, you're going to Hell.

See you there SG!

 

[Barnabas]

It's true that if God doesn't draw us to himself, we can't (and won't) seek him.

But that's not MY standard. Christ HIMSELF said that, in John 6:44. Read it for yourself:
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

I'm going to be honest here, I don't get angry very often, frustrated yes, annoyed plenty, but genuinely angry hasn't happened for me in quite a while. And though I know I shouldn't let it phase me, being called false prophet made me angry. While I think it might be better that I wait some time to respond to your comments, I've already been away for a few days and what you've said needs to be addressed. Your taking an incredible amount of scripture out of context to prove your points whether you know it or not. Starting off with John 6, you only quoted verses 44 ignoring the other, which is problematic because without context yeah, that looks a lot like predestination. But let's look at the rest of that passage,

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30 So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, alwaysgive us this bread.”
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me Ilose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

So let's take in the context, verse 41 states that Jesus is talking to the Jews, who are bugging him for sins to prove that he is the messiah(this takes place only shortly after Jesus had multiplied the fish and the bread to feed the people listening to him this crowd of Jews ca. While it's not stated it's plausible that the Jews in this passage were simply looking for another free meal, seeing as by this time Jesus had already provided many signs of his divinity to them.) The Jews are complaining to Jesus, they believe that because they are descendants of Moses that they already know how to do God's works claiming that Moses ate the mana from heaven as proof of knowing God's will.

Jesus turns this around on them, saying that He is that mana that came from heaven, this means that while Moses got to witness that will of God Jesus is literally the will of God. When Jesus brings up that no one can come to the him except those who are drawn to him by the father in verse 44 he's telling the Jew's that their heritage will not save them, that Just because they are Jews does not mean they are doing the will of God. He goes on to state that anyone who believes in him can have salvation, not just the Jews.

This is literally the opposite of what you are talking about, God once picked the Jews now he's available to anyone who's willing listen.

That's true. But again, that's not MY standard. it's God's standard. Read Romans 3:10-12 :

10 as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Again it's not MY "system." It's Scripture.

There is point in the Bible in Matthew 13 where the disciples ask Jesus why he talks in parables, his response is because even when the Jews listen they don't listen. They hear the words but can't or won't try to understand their meaning instead clinging to the things they think they already know. Jesus tells his disciples even then that even the nothing they think they have will be taken away from them. Your seeing the words but your not seeing them, your reading but your not comprehending.

Once again more context helps sort out this list of quotes that Paul recites which come from multiple books of the old testament Verses 10-12 are the real quotes here that your using, so there the only one I'm going to dispute. First off Paul isn't talking about the how the how fallen we are, Chapter 3 of Romans is once again a response to the Jews of Rome who believe that they have some kind of saving grace simply by being Jewish that's verse 1, Paul's response is that were all condemned, that we all needs Jesus whether were Jew or Gentile.

Verse 10 is a quote from Ecclesiastes chapter 7

20

For there is not a just man on earth who does good
And does not sin

Verses 11-12 are quotes from Psalm 14 which goes something like this.

14 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
2 The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

4 Do all the workers of wickedness not know,
Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
And do not call upon the Lord?
5 There they are in great dread,
For God is with the righteous generation.
6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted,
But the Lord is his refuge.

7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!
When the Lord restores His captive people,


Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.

So let's recap, Ecclesiastes says that man can do Good, just not without sin, when Paul says that none are righteous, he means none are righteous like God is righteous. He's basicly leveling the playing field of the Jews and the Gentiles saying you guys are the same(which fit's exactly with what he said in verse 1).

In Psalms 14 it's specifically states that the "son's of men" and the "worker's of wickedness" don't know God, there is a distinction made between them and God's people, which means that this isn't a blanket statement about the depravity of humanity but instead about the literal foolishness of those who don't know God and hope of those who do.

Here's just a small sample of verses that prove it:

Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I'm going to hit these line by line and leave a link to the scripture so as not to take up even more space in this giant responce, let no one claim I'm not thorough.

Ephesians 1 opens with a recount of God's love for humanity, on a very personal level. What Paul is talking about here is that before the world began, before your first breath God chose to love you, with the full knowledge of all the sins you would commit he chose to seek redemption and reconciliation for you. The words predestined and Elect are used multiple places in the NT to this same effect. The elect is just another way of saying the chosen, which is one of the names of God's people in the old testament, which I've remarked earlier is not something that was exclusive but open to any one willing to abide his covenants.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2 Thessalonians 2, In this chapter of the book Paul talks to the Thessalonian Christians, who are afraid that they may have missed out on the return of Christ and their salvation. Paul looks to reassure them that god made them and that he will not forget about them. The same language is used again, they are his chosen people.

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8 is home to some of my favorite scripture, the language is beautiful. Paul's talking about how we may suffer in this world, but that suffering is nothing compared to the glory that come in the next life that God has made for us. He comforts them saying that no outside force can pull them from hands of God, that you can be assured of your salvation.

2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Timothy 1, The "saved us" is a reference to Christians, if you are christian you are saved.

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Ephesians 2, this... well yeah, God loves you, so much so that he gave his own life to reconcile the relationship between you and him, it's not something you asked for, it's not something you deserved, it's just something you have to accept if you want that relationship.

Not sure how that relates to predestination or total depravity, just good ol' gospel.

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6, this is a great example of the king James almost being unreadable and more importantly inaccurate, if you want to get a good study of the Bible generally stick with NASB, it sticks closer to the original Greek and Hebrew more then any other translation it should be the version of all my links(I'm also a fan of the ESV, it attempts to balance modern language and the meaning of the original text even if it's not a word for word quotation of the manuscripts. Still for scholarly purposes the NASB is better)

short hand translation, any who comes to Christ won't be cast out.

1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter, This is another good example of the elect being used as a naming convention, because this verse is Peter literally greeting the Christians of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.

Acts 13:48 - And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Acts 13, skip down to 44-48 for the meaty bits this is another story of Paul preaching and the Jews, the chosen people rejecting it(funny how that works, if God's election is unresistible how come the Jews are doing such a good Job of resisting it). However the Gentiles get it, they hear and they listen, and they have eternal life(I sensing a common theme here.)

It doesn't say he loves everyone in the world.

Read the rest of the passage. Clearly, some are saved and some are damned. the ones who BELIEVE are saved. And the ones who do NOT believe are damned.

If you think it means he loves everyone, how do you make sense of the rest of the passage?

Read John 3:16-21 :

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [e]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [f]only begotten Son of God.19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”


Do you see the distinction?

If you think God loves those who end up in Hell, then it proves once again, you know no
thing about God.

Because God gave us the free will to choose, he has offered us salvation and allowed for us to chose whether or not we receive it. You would say that when Jesus spoke of loving the whole world he actually meant just the ones he saves(which has no grounding in the language used or in the rest of scripture), saying that it means private salvation, I tell you that when ever Jesus say the Elect he means corporate election, the election of everyone who chooses to believe which has plenty of .

See, you just don't know Scripture. And what you have read, you've not understood.

You don't know God, and you are a false prophet.


Stop pretending that you know him and seek TRUE understanding.


You worship a false Christ. You need the true Christ revealed in Scripture. He can "save to the uttermost those who draw near to God
through him." Hebrews 7:25


He said:

25 Therefore He is able also to save [a]forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

I don't have time to address the rest of your post right now. Nor is it as important as the fact that you are lost.


Come to Christ and be saved from your sin.

I started writing this angry, that has waned by now, it been replaced by weariness. I know nothing I say will reach you, and on some level I'm OK with it, I still think your going to heaven even if you'll gt a pleasant surprise when you get there. I'm more worried about every individual who has read your posts thinking this is how God feels, this is how Christians act. If just one person has decided that this faith isn't for them. If just one person said they couldn't possibly worship a God like that then I hope you realize how much hurt you've caused How, how you've pulled another stone from the kingdom of God out from it's place on the wall.

I'm not going to explain that verse in Hebrews, hopefully by now people have got picture by now as it's taken me well over two hours to type this post and I must say it's quite a dozy, I just transferred it over to Google docs to do some editing on it. It's over 3000 words guys, I'm hoping the length isn't to intimidating.


Don't Skip This Part, whoever makes it to the end of this post. This is the important part.


Jesus loves you, more then you can possibly imagine, more than you or I could ever fathom, He saw a divide between us and him, he knew that there was only one way that divide could ever be bridged. He gave up his seat in heaven, all of his glory and lived like you or me, he suffered every burden and every punishment that was ever meant for the sins humanity including yours. Don't let anyone ever tell you that God doesn't love you, he gave up to much for such a thing to ever be said, suffered to far for every one, for anyone to claim that he does not love is to take that sacrifice and stamp on it, to pitch it in the garbage and curse it.

God loves you, he wants the very best for you, he wants to see you face to face. All you have to do is accept his gift.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I wasn't planning to participate in these threads anymore, but I felt this was too important to ignore.

Don't Skip This Part, whoever makes it to the end of this post. This is the important part.

Jesus loves you, more then you can possibly imagine, more than you or I could ever fathom, He saw a divide between us and him, he knew that there was only one way that divide could ever be bridged. He gave up his seat in heaven, all of his glory and lived like you or me, he suffered every burden and every punishment that was ever meant for the sins humanity including yours. Don't let anyone ever tell you that God doesn't love you, he gave up to much for such a thing to ever be said, suffered to far for every one, for anyone to claim that he does not love is to take that sacrifice and stamp on it, to pitch it in the garbage and curse it.

God loves you, he wants the very best for you, he wants to see you face to face. All you have to do is accept his gift.

Barnabas,

This alone proves you are a false prophet.

You're the kind that says, "Peace, peace; when there is no peace." (Jer. 6:14, 8:11)

It should be obvious that God does not love those he sends to Hell, yet people will still prefer your false message to the true.

The worst part of your lie is that people who have no interest in Christ will not seek him if they believe God already loves them.

They won't repent and turn to Christ if they think they're already safe.

So you've given them a false hope and a false refuge from the wrath of God.

You are the antithesis of a true Gospel witness.


To everyone else: Don't believe the lie.

If you do not know Christ, you are under the wrath of God.

John 3:36 :

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

You MUST come to Christ to be saved.

And you will only come if God draws you to himself, through his Word.

I pray he will do so, for Christ's sake.

John 6:35-40 :

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[Skarekrow]

I wasn't planning to participate in these threads anymore, but I felt this was too important to ignore.



Barnabas,

This alone proves you are a false prophet.

You're the kind that says, "Peace, peace; when there is no peace." (Jer. 6:14, 8:11)

It should be obvious that God does not love those he sends to Hell, yet people will still prefer your false message to the true.

The worst part of your lie is that people who have no interest in Christ will not seek him if they believe God already loves them.

They won't repent and turn to Christ if they think they're already safe.

So you've given them a false hope and a false refuge from the wrath of God.

You are the antithesis of a true Gospel witness.


To everyone else: Don't believe the lie.

If you do not know Christ, you are under the wrath of God.

John 3:36 :


You MUST come to Christ to be saved.

And you will only come if God draws you to himself, through his Word.

I pray he will do so, for Christ's sake.

John 6:35-40 :