Saved From What?

[SovereignGrace]

What I don't understand is, if Jesus saved us, then why do we still need saving from sin?

Christ did not die to save everyone. He did not die for those who end up in Hell. That would amount to a failure. And Christ cannot fail.

The redemptive work of Christ was performed for a particular people. All throughout the Scriptures, those who are saved are referred to as "the elect" or "My people."

He wouldnt make that distinction if he died for everybody.

For example, in Isaiah 53:8, he says:

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

Does that sound exclusive and limited, or inclusive of all?

It's clearly talking about a particular people, not all.

And again, he can't fail. He has effectually accomplished the redemption of those people. Look at Hebrews 9:12 :

Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Does it sound like he TRIED, or SUCCEEDED in obtaining redemption?

Obviously, it says he succeeded.

If anyone ends up in Hell, it's not because Jesus failed to save them. It's because he only died for the sins of a particular people.

 

[SovereignGrace]

But that's an appeal to the heart, let's make an appeal to scripture alone instead it's quite easy to sight John 3:16 "For God so loved the World..." where teh word used in the verse is cosmos meaning everything without exemption.

Why would he say he loves everyone if he doesn't?

It doesn't say he loves everyone in the world.

Read the rest of the passage. Clearly, some are saved and some are damned. the ones who BELIEVE are saved. And the ones who do NOT believe are damned.

If you think it means he loves everyone, how do you make sense of the rest of the passage?

Read John 3:16-21 :

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Do you see the distinction?

If you think God loves those who end up in Hell, then it proves once again, you know nothing about God.

 

[say what]

Christ did not die to save everyone. He did not die for those who end up in Hell. That would amount to a failure. And Christ cannot fail.

The redemptive work of Christ was performed for a particular people. All throughout the Scriptures, those who are saved are referred to as "the elect" or "My people."

He wouldnt make that distinction if he died for everybody.

For example, in Isaiah 53:8, he says:


Does that sound exclusive and limited, or inclusive of all?

It's clearly talking about a particular people, not all.

And again, he can't fail. He has effectually accomplished the redemption of those people. Look at Hebrews 9:12 :



Does it sound like he TRIED, or SUCCEEDED in obtaining redemption?

Obviously, it says he succeeded.

If anyone ends up in Hell, it's not because Jesus failed to save them. It's because he only died for the sins of a particular people.

Who are these particular people?

How do we know there is a hell? Could we not all be saved and end up in Heaven?

I personally don't believe that God or Jesus would be prejudice, and only have certain 'people'.... That seems like a sin in itself.

 

[say what]

It doesn't say he loves everyone in the world.

Read the rest of the passage. Clearly, some are saved and some are damned. the ones who BELIEVE are saved. And the ones who do NOT believe are damned.

If you think it means he loves everyone, how do you make sense of the rest of the passage?

Read John 3:16-21 :


Do you see the distinction?

If you think God loves those who end up in Hell, then it proves once again, you know nothing about God.

I believe that the Bible is about the God that the individual prophets believed...in fact, if could be argued that Christianity is based solely their [the prophets] own perception and understanding God.

But why ask a question for discussion if you're going to regard opposing opinions with little respect?

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]

Something being for everyone in general does not mean that every person will apply for it.

Like if I wanted to give a gift to all people in the world but some will inevitably reject it. Does that mean I singled out people to favor? No, that's their doing isn't it? I'd have liked to give it to everyone but I know that some will not have it.

This is where your reasoning goes fatally wrong because you assume that since it is stated that only some people will accept, then it was only ever for those people.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Who are these particular people?

I personally don't believe that God or Jesus would be prejudice, and only have certain 'people'.... That seems like a sin in itself.

No, God is not prejudiced at all.

He is exclusive in the sense that you must believe in his Son. You must not follow other gods.

But he does not discriminate according to race, ethnicity, age, etc.

Those whom he saves are from all walks of life, age, level of intelligence, accomplisments, etc.

And their "works" have nothing to do with it. They're "justified by faith apart from works". (Romans 3:28)

He chooses them, not because of anything they do or don't do, but to glorify himself in saving them.

They are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,


He chose them before they were even born. (Ephesians 1:4)

They are called "vessels of mercy, which he has
prepared beforehand for glory." (Romans 9:23)

And they are from "all nations, and tribes, and people, and tongues,"(Revelation 7:9) So race and ethnicity has nothing to do with it either.

It's all of GRACE, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

But it must be the TRUE Christ of the Scriptures.

How do we know there is a hell? Could we not all be saved and end up in Heaven?

Because God has revealed the truth in his Word. So we don't have to guess.

The Scriptures do NOT say we will all end up saved.

 

[SovereignGrace]

[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]

Something being for everyone in general does not mean that every person will apply for it.

Like if I wanted to give a gift to all people in the world but some will inevitably reject it. Does that mean I singled out people to favor? No, that's their doing isn't it? I'd have liked to give it to everyone but I know that some will not have it.

This is where your reasoning goes fatally wrong because you assume that since it is stated that only some people will accept, then it was only ever for those people.

I've already addressed this in numerous posts. In this thread as well as others.

 

[sprinkles]

I've already addressed this in numerous posts. In this thread as well as others.

Of course you did by basically saying that you are correct. Your self pride is abundantly clear. It is painted on almost everything you say and do, from your username to your avatar.

I think this is more about you and your flaunting than anything else.

 

[say what]

No, God is not prejudiced at all.

He is exclusive in the sense that you must believe in his Son. You must not follow other gods.

But he does not discriminate according to race, ethnicity, age, etc.

Those whom he saves are from all walks of life, age, level of intelligence, accomplisments, etc.

But he does discriminate based on faith.

If there are policies and laws in place not to discriminate against someone's faith/religion in the work place, school, public, etc. then how can one say that it's not prejudice of a loving God to not love even those who might have different faith?

How do we know the prophets accurately recorded God's word? How do we not know that there wasn't bias or misinterpretations made?

 

[Lark]

Right, see if I can get all this covered.

Principally what seperates me from non-believers I think is that I believe in the supernatural, which includes miracles and unexplained phenomenon, in divinity, in a single monotheistic deity which is non-corporeal, ie "no God but God", and I wonder about and hope for some sort of afterlife, which in my experience non-believers do not believe in at all, even if I have my doubts about it I realise that this is very different from being certain its a myth or total implausibility.

I believe that Jesus was God incarnate, he had to die because all men (or women) die, that God would be incarnate and die as any of his creation does is what sets God apart from any "human, all to human" psychological projection or anthropomorphic imagining which is sort of a "big me" or "super hero", even from the "avatars" which are Gods incarnate in Greek myths or the Hindu pantheon. However there is another sense in which Jesus had to die the untimely death he did because he was truly "ahistorical" and a "man out of time" and there is nothing surer than that this will get you killed, that it will frequently be awful, horrible, shocking and terrifying.

How was Jesus "ahistorical" and a "man out of time", well, because he was God, God is ahistorical and out of time, this alone was not sufficient to have lead to Jesus' demise though. I think that's an important point. There is a sense in which the prophets resemble this sort of human being which I'm talking about, although its the same difference between a spark and a raging fire storm. Definitely a difference in magnitude but also consequences too. Part of this comes back to the whole supernatural phenomenon, ie miracles, all of which were not mere window dressing or served as emphasis or anything of that sort.

How did Jesus save anyone and what from? Well I see it as being the reconciliation between God and his creation, not in the sense that either party had injured one or the other and it was some kind of cosmic mediation process, this is simultaneously a "human, all to human" idea, like God and man negotiate contracts with one another etc. and also irrational, obscurantist and, to borrow existentialist ideas, absurd and colluding with the apparent absurdity of existence.

The history of the world and the history as recounted in the old testament is one of mistaken ideas about God and about mankind, there's divine communications, the prophets, an upward thrust to understanding through revelation and discovery but it has also been marked by colossal errors and set backs, in no small part because of the gulf between God and mankind because there hadnt been any incarnation.

So the life and ministry of Jesus should provide the final word or all clarification necessary about God, life, the universe and everything, it doesnt mean that the night ceases to be "dark and full of terrors" but there's more reason for confidence than there is not, there is a perrenial doctrine which should everyone adhere to it one day will constitute the practical advent of the world to come and a paradisaical state of being for humankind.

The whole idea that God is full of wrath for his creation and humankind should fear him and seek to ameliorate their terror by reflecting upon, well, that one time when God sent his son and we killed him and he didnt destroy the universe, as God well could have because his son didnt think it was a good idea is completely and utterly erroneous and a major part of the reason why the incarnation was absolutely and fundamentally necessary in the first place. That thinking constitutes a wedge between God and man, it IS the sort of thinking the incarnation was supposed to correct. Its persistence demonstrates that, as with the prophets and other divine interventions in human history, that God is nothing if not a respecter of human free will, which serves to vindicate the view of God as anything but wrathful because wrath controls, coerces and compells, God does not, therefore the contrary view of God as Love is evident.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Of course you did by basically saying that you are correct. Your self pride is abundantly clear. It is painted on almost everything you say and do, from your username to your avatar.

I think this is more about you and your flaunting than anything else.

No, that's not what's going on at all.

What's happening is that I have shown over and over again how God declares in his Word that apart from God-given faith in his Son, Jesus Christ, everyone will be justly cast into Hell for their sins.

Naturally, people don't like that message, and so they make personal attacks on me.

It's just that simple.

Nevertheless, the declaration of Scripture is the final authority, and if God doesn't save you, you're going to Hell.

 

[Lark]

But he does discriminate based on faith.

If there are policies and laws in place not to discriminate against someone's faith/religion in the work place, school, public, etc. then how can one say that it's not prejudice of a loving God to not love even those who might have different faith?

How do we know the prophets accurately recorded God's word? How do we not know that there wasn't bias or misinterpretations made?

I dont believe that God makes any sectarian distinctions, there definitely is no evidence of that, he did not favour either side in the world war whether they claimed to be the greater Christians or not. In fact I would go so far as to say that God is not a Christian (nor a Jew, a Muslim or anything else).

These things matter very little to God and in the one time in the bible, the one time that the final judgement is described in pretty unmistakeable and categorical terms by Jesus, God himself literally, he does not care about anyones beliefs, not their thinking, not the content of their characters, motivations etc. at all, there's nothing about were they hang their hat on sundays but whether they practically did anything to assist anyone in need when they had the opportunity IS discussed as the sole criteria on which God makes any decision about anyone. Its in Matthew in black and white. Its also the key to stories such as the good Samaritan or Syrophenician (spelling) woman at the well.

The whole idea that peoples beliefs matter so much is a legacy of the reformation attempt to diminish the importance of sacramentalism relative to that of the private conscience, unfortunately in the process the deeds of anyone and idea of good works was dispatched with altogether, all sorts of earlier beliefs about election and predestination rehabilitated in attempts to return to dogmatic assertions, believed to prefigure the corruptions of their day, and to be contra scholarly reasoning or extrapolation (thought to be part of the problem). I see that all as the periodic lapse into error which has characterised the history of humankind. Its two steps forward and one step back, if you're lucky, a lot of the time its two forward and four back. At least spiritually.

I dont think that faith is about joining the right club or possessing the right "colours", its like a mathematical equation, there's some working out which is mistaken but gets close to the mark, there is only one correct answer though but I dont believe that not having it necessarily condemns you, at least not in any sense other than not having the answer means you go on searching for it.

 

[Lark]

Of course you did by basically saying that you are correct. Your self pride is abundantly clear. It is painted on almost everything you say and do, from your username to your avatar.

I think this is more about you and your flaunting than anything else.

This is what theories of election do you know, if you believe that you're one of the choosen people, that your name is definitely written in the book of life and everyone else is born under a bad sign, fated badly then you inevitably develop a superiority complex and believe you alone are in possession of the facts and the truth.

Although it comes in a lot of different shapes this sort of thinking, this is only one example of it, its got its parallels in politics for instance, like if you believe you know about the true nature of things, you alone has sussed the conspiracy for what it is and everyone else are the poor deluded saps you know?

 

[sprinkles]

No, that's not what's going on at all.

What's happening is that I have shown over and over again how God declares in his Word that apart from God-given faith in his Son, Jesus Christ, everyone will be justly cast into Hell for their sins.

Naturally, people don't like that message, and so they make personal attacks on me.

It's just that simple.

Nevertheless, the declaration of Scripture is the final authority, and if God doesn't save you, you're going to Hell.

You might fool you but you don't fool me.

Don't tell me, tell yourself.

 

[say what]

No, that's not what's going on at all.

What's happening is that I have shown over and over again how God declares in his Word that apart from God-given faith in his Son, Jesus Christ, everyone will be justly cast into Hell for their sins.

Naturally, people don't like that message, and so they make personal attacks on me.

It's just that simple.

Nevertheless, the declaration of Scripture is the final authority, and if God doesn't save you, you're going to Hell.

It's not personal attacks. You're giving us your own, personal, opinion. It is your opinion, because it's not an objective fact or belief. Just because someone disagrees or challenges you on your opinion, doesn't make it a personal attack.

Is you saying that I will be cast to Hell for my sins of not believing in your faith a personal attack? I consider it your opinion, just as it's my opinion (not a personal attack) that you are wrong.

As [MENTION=4115]Lark[/MENTION] put it- I don't think a God would discriminate based on faith. You are proposing such a deity- I'm not saying you're right or wrong, it's just not a God I believe would exist. As Lark said, i don't think God discriminates based on faith, gender, sex, ethnicity, etc. To me, a God that would cast someone to Hell for not believing in them isn't an image of kindness, justice, and love.

 

[the]

No, that's not what's going on at all.

What's happening is that I have shown over and over again how God declares in his Word that apart from God-given faith in his Son, Jesus Christ, everyone will be justly cast into Hell for their sins.

Naturally, people don't like that message, and so they make personal attacks on me.

It's just that simple.

Nevertheless, the declaration of Scripture is the final authority, and if God doesn't save you, you're going to Hell.

Do you feel vindicated now that youre an "oppressed" christian, just like jesus who disagreed with the Pharisees online and His avatar was e-crucified?

 

[Lark]

It's not personal attacks. You're giving us your own, personal, opinion. It is your opinion, because it's not an objective fact or belief. Just because someone disagrees or challenges you on your opinion, doesn't make it a personal attack.

Is you saying that I will be cast to Hell for my sins of not believing in your faith a personal attack? I consider it your opinion, just as it's my opinion (not a personal attack) that you are wrong.

As @Lark put it- I don't think a God would discriminate based on faith. You are proposing such a deity- I'm not saying you're right or wrong, it's just not a God I believe would exist. As Lark said, i don't think God discriminates based on faith, gender, sex, ethnicity, etc. To me, a God that would cast someone to Hell for not believing in them isn't an image of kindness, justice, and love.

Yeah, but they do believe it is objective fact and not opinion or belief.

Its a perfect rationalisation for faith and involves some circular and self-reinforcing logic.

This all makes perfect sense when you consider that most of the important figures of the reformation (and even some of the counter reformation such as Ignatious Loyola, founder of the Jesuits) actually struggled with crisis of faith and profound faith shattering doubts. A modern skeptical thinker might consider this an archetypical example of someone without the "God gene" living in a Godly culture and seeking desperately to adapt and adjust and cope, sometimes I think the opposite can be true today for believers in the secular culture but its outcome can be similar.

Anyway, I'd say that when you have the sort of clarity that's been achieved with the last couple of posts, like this one, the discussion has reached its conclusion pretty much. Thankfully we all can agree to disagree and we shall see how things play out, at other times and places these sorts of fortified opinions resulted in serious political sectarianism meaning that the conviction that failing to endorse the party line resulting in hell that its fine, possibly even pleasing to God, to give those involved a fore taste of what awaits them.

 

[Lark]

Do you feel vindicated now that youre an "oppressed" christian, just like jesus who disagreed with the Pharisees online and His avatar was e-crucified?

That's a pretty twisted version of the life and ministry of Jesus but perhaps that is what is in play here, I do think it is correct that there is possibly an underlying character structure which involves a persecution complex and this sort of religious message appeals to it.

There are political equivalents though which unconsciously seek different forms of validation for "oppressed" groups though, not least through seeking to spread their own kinds of groupthink to everyone else or condemn them for failing to adopt it.

I think all that sorts of think are toxic. Its not what Jesus was about at all.

 

[Lark]

You might fool you but you don't fool me.

Don't tell me, tell yourself.

Nice line there, I havent heard it before but it makes sense in this context. In the context of many other similar discussions too.

 

[Skarekrow]

I believe that the Bible is about the God that the individual prophets believed...in fact, if could be argued that Christianity is based solely their [the prophets] own perception and understanding God.

But why ask a question for discussion if you're going to regard opposing opinions with little respect?

Because he has to show everyone how intelligent, well-read, and far more cleaver than anyone here he is...also how he may or not be saved...but he probably will and you won’t..because he is far cooler than you.