[INFJ] Seeing An Argument From All Angles

[MENTION=5437]Paladin-X[/MENTION]

no need to be sorry, it’s not ridiculous.

i struggle with this, too. good idea to set boundaries; speaking with someone else about your reactions and emotional response to certain situations can sometimes lighten the load and help gain new more balanced perspectives.

some of us need to develop firmer strategies how to deal with other peoples issues so that we don’t become enmeshed. because this can be detrimental to our own health and not helpful for other person.

when you feel yourself being pulled into something (perhaps this happens when people confide in you, or you witness/experience distressing events) or your hear that quiet voice, ask yourself: how can i help? have i set myself realistic expectations? at what cost will this come to my own general wellbeing?

sometimes i just watch and care at a distance. not particularly useful to other person, but sometimes no other way. only so much one can take. sometimes i am very fierce and i go in --- rewarding, exhilirating, but exhausting.

but i don't know really know how to stop caring. deeply inbuilt in my nature.
 
[MENTION=3156]Saru Inc[/MENTION] I genuinely don't have much of a response to that. Your original post was a bit "Wtf" to be honest with you. I don't demand the utmost respect from you at all, I just have no idea why you would post a pissy post about the forum in general in this particular thread. I really don't want to hear it. Also quoting Coheed...not melodramatic in the slightest, although I do admit to liking that song.

Yeah you have that difficulty with pretty much everything, that's not a judgement, its just an observation
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With some things, yes. I take medication for it actually, so what? I overthink things and get trapped in those thoughts...usually surrounding ongoing situations.

Genuinely, if you have a problem with the forum, why stay? Staying and being pissy doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Anyway, I no longer give a fuck Saru, I was in a bad mood yesterday, go ahead and say what you want.
 
I find it hard sometimes to follow my own vision for things in groups when I realize that what others are suggesting is actually in any normal respect reasonable, fair and "not such a big deal" but at the same time it's usually not what I want to do. I think it's hard to stand your ground sometimes because it's nice to have friends and not for everyone to see you as difficult to work with but at the same time no one else can really see what you're going for and why it would be a really good idea to participate in that. I find I really have to compromise too much if I want to be likeable and not difficult but at the same time I feel that the other people involved are also right in what they are saying because there is no right in these types of things. There's only what you do.
On a personal level when it comes to relationships I'm harder to persuade at this age. I just do what I'm comfortable with and the whys are nobody's business but mine.
That said on another note I've noticed from observing myself and an INTJ friend it's very hard to argue with me or him for that matter without being utterly bulldozed on some level. That monkeylike mental agility we can switch from where we start arguing and then finding better points to argue from and taking that gives us a great arsenal in a way that can be misused to worm ourselves out of most unhappy situations looking squeeky clean. If you are not aware of it yourself you'll buy into it too, thinking you are actually just a victim of circumstances that make you act a certain way. This of course is bs. The ability can be misused very easily and if your motives are not kosher you can become a really unpleasant person all the while still thinking you're justified in being that way.
 
I don't know. I often start to feel bad because if I see from all angles, then all can be right - and wrong. So how do I make attitude???:)
 
Neverwhere said:
So, there's this INFJ ability to see an argument from all angles. Sometimes it's great, sometimes not so much.

How do you other INFJs manage to stand your ground when you have a case/point and the other party is manipulative? How do you stop yourself forgetting where you stand and just start feeling bad about everything?
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I dont think it is an INFJ ability to every angle, I think it is an ability everyone has except for people involved in the arguement. Even still they may see the other side but not care because they want it their way. I think the INFJ quality is that you start feeling bad about everything.

My advice is dont get involved in peoples problems.
 
Neverwhere said:
@Saru Inc I genuinely don't have much of a response to that. Your original post was a bit "Wtf" to be honest with you. I don't demand the utmost respect from you at all, I just have no idea why you would post a pissy post about the forum in general in this particular thread. I really don't want to hear it. Also quoting Coheed...not melodramatic in the slightest, although I do admit to liking that song.


With some things, yes. I take medication for it actually, so what? I overthink things and get trapped in those thoughts...usually surrounding ongoing situations.

Genuinely, if you have a problem with the forum, why stay? Staying and being pissy doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Anyway, I no longer give a fuck Saru, I was in a bad mood yesterday, go ahead and say what you want.
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I can't tell if you're apologizing or not but apology accepted. Of course you still care, I'm saying relax I was kidding around, you still want to take offence that's fine but none was intended.


I love how seriously this forum takes things like this but then blows off serious things as chaff.
 
Interesting comments and questions.

Seeing many perspectives on any given situation is a talent employed by many people and types. It comes about when critical reasoning skills and a sense of fairness is developed by the person.

My anger button was pushed yesterday and I was amazed at how quickly I embraced it and showed it as I normally don't let myself go that far. It was over someone crossing my boundary. I think anger was appropriate then.

To test whether something is worth hanging on to - you've got to look at WHY one is holding tightly.

I think INFJs in particular move easily to the position of looking at all angles because we do it to ourselves all.the.time. We are forever caught up in our internal dialogue because we seek insight and improvement in our selves. It's neither good nor bad - just the way our type is designed.

I become angry and frustrated whenever despite the fact I can see their point of view - they refuse to consider mine. At that point depending upon who it is and whether I seek their approval or not - is when I will let go - or hang on to it. See....I need to look at the reasons why I am seeking their approval.
 
Saru Inc said:
I have absolutely every idea about what you're talking about, I was more predicting the answers of the people who are bound to say something similar to the thread.








I always find it laughable whenever I see a post breed hate in some kafkaesque translation of 'love' using lovey words like 'cultural centralization' and junk. Its given tons of thumbs up and reps and quotes like 'oh wow such a great person.' Its really a hateful post, but since so many on this forum are incapable of confronting anything remotely difficult its disregarded and praised. So I'll do little posts like this which sound hateful, but they're not because I really don't care one way or another about the topic. However I am deeply saddened at the lack of approval I receive from members.

I'm not saying the post is a joke, however I am saying the forum is a joke and thus the responses from the forum to the post are ergo thusly jokes.

Also I enjoy saying irrelephant despite being 21 years old.
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Glad to see how far I need to go. :P (and, nice brandish you had there. :D)

And if I may ask one question;
laughable why, again?
 
Kgal said:
Interesting comments and questions.

Seeing many perspectives on any given situation is a talent employed by many people and types. It comes about when critical reasoning skills and a sense of fairness is developed by the person.

My anger button was pushed yesterday and I was amazed at how quickly I embraced it and showed it as I normally don't let myself go that far. It was over someone crossing my boundary. I think anger was appropriate then.

To test whether something is worth hanging on to - you've got to look at WHY one is holding tightly.

I think INFJs in particular move easily to the position of looking at all angles because we do it to ourselves all.the.time. We are forever caught up in our internal dialogue because we seek insight and improvement in our selves. It's neither good nor bad - just the way our type is designed.

I become angry and frustrated whenever despite the fact I can see their point of view - they refuse to consider mine. At that point depending upon who it is and whether I seek their approval or not - is when I will let go - or hang on to it. See....I need to look at the reasons why I am seeking their approval.
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^ This very much.

I think there's a burden when you see an argument from all angles, because people expect you to take one side or another. Putting yourself in a position where you acknowledge the other side makes you seem like a fence-sitter rather than someone who is decisive. At which point, you have to ask yourself, what are we after? Are we after deciding who is right and who is wrong, or are we looking at finding the solution that is amicable for everybody?
 
For intellectual arguments on science or philosophy:
Just be comfortable with judging the ideas another person has, even if you know where they are coming from. Even if you seem to be acting intuitively, take your judgments as preliminary as you explore the other person's premises. It's okay to say someone is wrong. If anything, as an extroverted judger, judging should be a very strong need for your thinking, so follow through on that while being respectful. When the other party is manipulative/trolling, stop engaging.

For interpersonal relationship arguments:
Be firm on your beliefs, say them once and only once unless you have reason to think you were misunderstood. The other party should do the same. If you are wrong, you'll probably come to realize it the next day, but that's okay. Likely, you can get emotional quickly about people (again, due to extroverted judging), so if you get upset, excuse yourself from the situation. When the other person is being manipulative, their goal would be to make you forget where you stand -- you have to disengage.
 
[MENTION=5297]Neverwhere[/MENTION]

NOTE: You may skip ahead to the red bolded part below for the summarized version.

A thought dawned on me. I think I have found the missing piece of the puzzle that perhaps both of us are looking for. It's a ridiculously simple piece of logic. When you require a decision on a personal belief, stance, principle, value, opinion, etc and you don't have one at the time, you must take the time to ponder it. If another pushes the issue, you tell them you need time to think about it. If the person still pushes, I think it's often safest simply to say no or disagree or outright refuse to answer.

As a more dominant Fe user, we are better at deciding for another's best interest than for our own. It is also better at 'acting before thinking' which is often based on raw emotion (although Te is just as good as this. Type A ENTJs also seem to run on anger power). Or we fall back on what society or our specific social group would expect. Te is better at on the spot generalized logical decision making. Ti and Fi are more in-depth on their values and principles.

When thinking about this logic and thinking upon some INTP, INFP, ENFP friends I have, they only ever immediately decide upon what they already know. If it is a new personal idea/feeling/value/logic to consider, each of them has always said that they need time to think about it. When pressed, depending on the issue at hand, they will either demand time to consider, refuse outright, or just pick randomly. In trying to develop our own Ti, we should learn from this. Since it is a lower function for us, it will take time to build up stronger cases for our opinions, stances, principles, etc than an ENTP or INTP as they've been at it for longer. But man, strike a principle or value and watch them flip instantly without even a second blink. I find dominant Fi's and Ti's tend to know themselves better, at least on where they stand on a given personal issue.

While everyone here has provided fantastic advice on personal decision-making, I believe this logic is the key to giving us that time to make up our minds and perhaps employing some of the other advice given. As a dominant Ni, we don't always spend the time considering the decisions and stances we might have to take in life. So when we are presented with them, we may feel lost. This logic of insisting upon oneself and others to think, buys us the time to do as Stormy1 has suggested:

Stormy1 said:
It isn't about "not giving in" IMO at all. It is about being comfortable with exercising your personal power and decision making abilities. One of the things I have noticed is that people become overly concerned about being wrong. Big clue, you will be wrong a lot during your lifetime. It shouldn't stop you from making decisions or learning from those mistakes---another big clue--you have to make those decisions first.

Decisions/choices/stands/opinions
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And for the times when one is still stuck after all that, there is a 3rd option. Simply to accept at this point in time, that you have decided not to decide. It is a draw. It may suck under pressure to decide, but what the other has to learn, is tough shit for them. "I am not forcing a decision because you want one. I will give you one, when I am good and f'n ready. And if I still don't have one, but you want it, well it sucks to be you."


To summarize:


1. Unless you're 100% sure in a relatively short amount of time, never make a decision on the spot.

2. If it takes a relatively long amount of time on the spot, ie indecision or being manipulated, follow step 3, even if you think you're 100% sure by this point.

3. Insist upon time to think about it alone.

4. If time is not granted, automatic no or refusal to answer. (Severe circumstances may not allow this, but they're rare)

5. If you are given time, but still can't think of an answer, decide not to decide. If it bothers another, it is not your problem to own.


Over time, as these decisions come to light, we will build our own repository of opinions, stances, decisions, principles, etc that can be more quickly used in times of need.
 
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The fact that I can easily put myself in another person's shoes has been causing me trouble in some weird ways.

When I was a kid, I was the one in the group who never took sides.

Now, when I am negotiating issues with other companies on behalf of my own, I often find myself defending my counterpart's position rather than single-mindedly advancing the interests of my own company. A lot of people within my organization take it as a sign of weakness or even lack of loyalty, but I try to make sure there is an equal amount of give and take, although I can't always prove it to the people I work with. I not only understand my counterpart's logic, but also empathize with how much stress my counterpart will personally be under if he/she does not achieve middle-ground with me / my company.

Another issue in personal relationships is, and I wonder if other Fe types also have experienced this problem, that I sometimes become too close to manipulative types (esp. SF or STs..). It's not that I can't see that they are trying to control me, but even when I see very clearly that what they are doing is not healthy I feel sorry for them, maybe because I see how lonely they actually are..

As I mature though, I am learning to take better care of myself, and base my decisions more on what I want, rather than what others immediately need. It helps a lot to actually make decisions and then see how it feels afterwards. Learning from experience rather than imagining outcomes in my head.
 
Paladin-X said:
[MENTION=5297]Neverwhere[/MENTION]

NOTE: You may skip ahead to the red bolded part below for the summarized version.

A thought dawned on me. I think I have found the missing piece of the puzzle that perhaps both of us are looking for. It's a ridiculously simple piece of logic. When you require a decision on a personal belief, stance, principle, value, opinion, etc and you don't have one at the time, you must take the time to ponder it. If another pushes the issue, you tell them you need time to think about it. If the person still pushes, I think it's often safest simply to say no or disagree or outright refuse to answer.

As a more dominant Fe user, we are better at deciding for another's best interest than for our own. It is also better at 'acting before thinking' which is often based on raw emotion (although Te is just as good as this. Type A ENTJs also seem to run on anger power). Or we fall back on what society or our specific social group would expect. Te is better at on the spot generalized logical decision making. Ti and Fi are more in-depth on their values and principles.

When thinking about this logic and thinking upon some INTP, INFP, ENFP friends I have, they only ever immediately decide upon what they already know. If it is a new personal idea/feeling/value/logic to consider, each of them has always said that they need time to think about it. When pressed, depending on the issue at hand, they will either demand time to consider, refuse outright, or just pick randomly. In trying to develop our own Ti, we should learn from this. Since it is a lower function for us, it will take time to build up stronger cases for our opinions, stances, principles, etc than an ENTP or INTP as they've been at it for longer. But man, strike a principle or value and watch them flip instantly without even a second blink. I find dominant Fi's and Ti's tend to know themselves better, at least on where they stand on a given personal issue.

While everyone here has provided fantastic advice on personal decision-making, I believe this logic is the key to giving us that time to make up our minds and perhaps employing some of the other advice given. As a dominant Ni, we don't always spend the time considering the decisions and stances we might have to take in life. So when we are presented with them, we may feel lost. This logic of insisting upon oneself and others to think, buys us the time to do as Stormy1 has suggested:



And for the times when one is still stuck after all that, there is a 3rd option. Simply to accept at this point in time, that you have decided not to decide. It is a draw. It may suck under pressure to decide, but what the other has to learn, is tough shit for them. "I am not forcing a decision because you want one. I will give you one, when I am good and f'n ready. And if I still don't have one, but you want it, well it sucks to be you."


To summarize:


1. Unless you're 100% sure in a relatively short amount of time, never make a decision on the spot.

2. If it takes a relatively long amount of time on the spot, ie indecision or being manipulated, follow step 3, even if you think you're 100% sure by this point.

3. Insist upon time to think about it alone.

4. If time is not granted, automatic no or refusal to answer. (Severe circumstances may not allow this, but they're rare)

5. If you are given time, but still can't think of an answer, decide not to decide. If it bothers another, it is not your problem to own.


Over time, as these decisions come to light, we will build our own repository of opinions, stances, decisions, principles, etc that can be more quickly used in times of need.
Click to expand...
I always feel like I want to just say "I need time to think about it" But I'm rushed into making a quick decision and it often isn't quite what I actually feel on the situation, either that or I appear indecisive as you just said.
 
TheDaringHatTrick said:
I think there's a burden when you see an argument from all angles, because people expect you to take one side or another. Putting yourself in a position where you acknowledge the other side makes you seem like a fence-sitter rather than someone who is decisive. At which point, you have to ask yourself, what are we after? Are we after deciding who is right and who is wrong, or are we looking at finding the solution that is amicable for everybody?
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Bolded is the basis of real communication.

However, sometimes personal recalibration is appropriate if the willingness and personal honesty to change are present. Everyone has a rationale, that does not make them the most logically efficient viewpoints. Being able to calmly, clearly, and concisely fill in the gaps between is a cornerstone of bridge-building and cohesion.

As far as the technical realm is concerned, there is generally a right and wrong, (un)supported by established facts and principles. Always check sources. Objectivity exists and should be harnessed; educating should not be shied from, especially from among and between the knowledgeable. (Re-reading, the following is a slight tangent.) In the particular arena of philosophy, it helps to keep in mind the overarching objective as it relates to mankind: to elucidate and motivate. Many forget the latter after their descent into decimal-point argumentation.
 
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Seeing various angles of argument does not devolve into agreeing with those various angles in most people.

I suggest that your problem is not the scope of your insight, but rather a desire to please others, or conversely, a desire to avoid conflict with others.
 
I usually justify my position and find some excuse to dismiss theirs :D
 
Its important. I dunoe y people search for a particular perspective...or way....im like have it if u waant it dat bad...at the end of day...and simply put....it means that u understand...but let not act like it.....forget it.
 
Extremely difficult. I get lost - I can't cope with the trillions of angels there are. Usually I come across as being weak willed, and lacking conviction..there are so many things to consider and so little time to do so!
I think sticking with one view point or opinion is never the right answer anyway. It's all subjective and changes according to the personal context. Therefore, who's right? Why bother taking one side or another? Taking one side or another to me seems like a display of ignorance, especially if the other sides are just as valid.
 
Why look at the other person's point of view when you can just just hit them over and over until they agree with you. It's a far quicker way of ending arguments.

Sometimes, though, you hit them too hard, everything goes red and you wake up in a prison cell, covered in blood.
 
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