sexual harrassment in the workplace

You just said you wanted feedback...advise is feedback, no?

If you want feedback, accept said feedback. Your argumentative stance on everyone's responses leads me to believe you are trolling.

I also don't appreciate having words put in my mouth.
 
Yeah, reckon this user is nothing more than a clever troll. Her lack of intereaction of the forum bar making three new threads a day about the poor little woman need no further explanation.
 
alice144 said:
Wow, seriously? I'm looking for feedback here, not a character assault. wtf you guys.
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Its just that every post you have made so far seems like a character, that's just the thing. not a person. It kind of twangs on our intuitions like "whats your agenda". I have noticed a few of your posts so far and they all have a common theme. The jury is still out on you, FYI. My suggestion would be to human-up a little and be more personal with us so we can get a taste for who you are, if you want to discuss gender equity they have forums dedicated to exactly just that. This is more of a community, we all know each other more or less. We are weary of new people who only have 1 topic to talk about because it might be indicative of a troll. Please dont take any of this personally, I am just letting you in on how some of us feel so far.
 
alice144 said:
I don't feel like discussing my experiences? It was really traumatic at the time, and I feel like I am up against a hostile audience. I dislike the implication that I deserve what I got because I didn't deal with the problem properly. I checked my original post again; I don't think I started this thread in order to talk about myself.
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youre on a forum full of people who do nothing but over-analyze the people around them and wonder what their motives are, if you want to have a static discussion on gender equity youre going to have to be in our in-group by leaving the baggage out while we warm up to you 1st, then drop this stuff on us, until then youre making us wonder why you would pick this place to discuss such topics.
 
alice144 said:
I think that was the implication when I reported to HR. I don't disbelieve that women do just what you have described; but I really resent that it seems to be so commonplace that the bias is immediately against the woman making the claim. Those laws were created for a reason; it's depressing to see them so cynically manipulated.
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Yeah it has to suck for those with real problems. Sorry to hear you had multiple occurances.


Looks like I will have to play INFJ today, all these so called feelers are out for blood.
 
Maybe we should all smoke a blunt instead of being so blunt.

Especially Alice.

;P
 
alice144 said:
You're right, bad example. I don't like talking about guys trying to grope me though. I included the story because it came under the umbrella of 'demeaning experiences' and occurred in the same workplace.



Like you, I was never keen to stir up trouble. I think it becomes an issue when it's pervasive, it doesn't stop. I don't give a shit if some guy reads playboy at work, but if he reads playboy at work and then makes comments about the size the of the women's breasts and then compares their breasts to my breasts and does so every day, then I become unhappy and don't want to come to work anymore. It's accumulated misery.

I'm not bringing this up because I hate men and I want to stir up trouble. I believe that this is an important and often overlooked issue, and I genuinely want some sort of discussion. Making comments about how I am 'weird' or display 'rigid thinking' isn't only hurtful, but it makes me wonder whether any of you really take this stuff seriously, at all. If you were my coworker, would you behave as all my other coworkers? That bothers me.
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Did you approach the man that spoke about your breasts? Did you tell him that was inappropriate? What happened?
 
Actually sexual harrassment is widely misunderstood. It is not talking about one incident one time usually--however, in certain cases one rather horrible event can constitute sexual harrassment. It is more about a pattern of behavior over a period of time. It is actually much harder to prove without a concrete body of evidence.
 
Additionally

You have to document behavior, be able to tell show that you have told the individual to stop, that you have brought it up to management and they have not acted on the issue. Then, once you document and such, you need to file an actual complaint with an EEO office and/or follow your company's chain of command.

It is a lengthy process that requires you to be very active in seeking a solution first. It is by no means a perfect or easy thing to do and takes a considerable amount of time to get relief if management is unwilling to deal with the situation. Written complaints are always better than verbal ones with specific dates/times/incident clearly explained in a factual (not emotional) manner. If the first line supervisor fails to respond then you go up the chain of command and go over their head.
 
My first job after graduating from college was a chemical engineer for ARCO Refining at their largest refinery in the US - down in Houston. I was the 3rd female chemical engineer ever hired to work there. Whew....talk about sexual harassment. I was out right resented just because I was a woman - period. It must have been what it felt like when they made Rice University allow women to attend there - which had happened about 5 years before I graduated in 1980.

I had always gotten along better with guys - rather than girls - back in those days - and I thought I was prepared to work there.

Nope. It was very hard and I still have times where tears come when I tell some of the stories of my time there.

Although the good outweighed the bad - there were many, many instances of being judged simply because I had boobs. We had to wear Nomex coveralls everywhere - so it wasn't like I was allowed to walk around in low cleavage shirts or short skirts. It's a refinery after all - and that means hard hats/safety glasses/and steel toed boots. Still - guys made passes - wolf calls - and hollered names at me all the time as I walked throughout the refinery. It was something I just endured because we had no real sexual harassment laws back in those days.

One incident out of them stands out in my mind. I mean I was setup to fail by a small group of operators on a maintenance turnaround - but I attributed that to the fact I was an engineer. They didn't like us college rats coming around telling them what to do. In thinking about it - perhaps I am wrong....

No. This incident was strictly to shock and shame me. They invited me to come over to the break table for coffee. Then they brought out what I thought was a magazine like Hustler. I used to peruse Playboy and mine the hot stories - so I figured there couldn't be anything in this mag that would bother me. Turns out it wasn't. Back in those days pics of transexual persons were not common. In fact I had never seen one nor had heard of them. So this one operator is sitting next to me while everyone else is watching and he starts turning the pages of this layout centerfold. The person depicted is bare chested showing pretty tatas but wearing a skirt. The next page was turned and the skirt was pulled up showing male genitalia. When I gasped in shock - they laughed and laughed at me exclaiming their glee at making me embarrassed and ashamed. They kept asking me if I'd go out with someone like that and would it feel like double the fun....Aaaugh!
One more attempt at pulling me down was successful.

This group of guys at the HDS unit were the ones who set me up to fail - as I was the one in charge of the regeneration of the catalyst. It was a simple set of directions - and the night shift must have slept right through most of them - because when I went out the next day the regen process was incomplete. We were on a tight schedule and could not restart the process. When I tried to talk about it with the Head Operator - I was upset - accused them of shirking responsibilities - and he reared up and shut me down. Essentially they were union and they could do what they damn well pleased. blah blah blah. In other words - they showed me THEY were the boss because they were men and I better shape up and fly right. As a result - we lost money - and I was ultimately responsible. I was mortified....

It wasn't until many months later - after I spent the midnight shift collecting samples of hydrogen sulfide gas in a very dangerous situation - that I think I finally earned their respect.

I think if there had been a law and/or someone I could have gone to about the incident with the magazine - I would have. They pretty much traumatized me that day.

It saddens me to see people take advantage of a set of laws to help bring equality to the workplace. In a world run by men - women often have to struggle to make their way. Some of us have paved the way for them but I know it's not enough. I see the attitude that women are inferior all over the place down here where I live. It even shows up on local church signs. [rolls eyes] Women are supposed to be pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen - don't you know....

I really think you never know how it feels - until you've been in a situation.
 
alice144 said:
I don't give a shit if some guy reads playboy at work, but if he reads playboy at work and then makes comments about the size the of the women's breasts and then compares their breasts to my breasts and does so every day, then I become unhappy and don't want to come to work anymore. It's accumulated misery.
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You should make comments about the size of this guy's dick and compare it to a thumbtack.
 
It seems that sexual harassment is often brushed under the rug. Most people brush it off or make a joke out of it, because if they report it, they're considered troublemakers and that could affect their job opps. If it's a joke or two, I'd probably ignore it or laugh it off because I know that's a part of the culture sometimes. I probably wouldn't have done that 10 years ago. I notice that how someone reacts to teasing often determines how much they are teased. I think if people are aware that their behaviors are affecting or bothering someone, they tend to target them more. But of course, when it becomes physical is where it becomes a huge problem. The problem is when it happens, it often happens when not many people are around, so it becomes a he or she said situation if it's reported. It also complicates things when it's only reported when received from one person vs. another. Or when someone is less likely to be believed because the person accused is considered quite attractive and is seen as not needing to resort this kind of behavior. But I think discrimination rather than harrassment is more common in the workplace today. Whether it's limits on promotions based on gender or treating a woman as being more disruptive because she is more assertive, or not taking an idea submitted by a female employee seriously but treating the same idea as brilliant when a male suggests it. Or complimenting women by saying they're smart because they think like a man.

So, I think gender discrimination is a better term to describe some of the issues women experience in this era.
 
CindyLou said:
Did you approach the man that spoke about your breasts? Did you tell him that was inappropriate? What happened?
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That was hypothetical. I did have guys making comments about my body; they didn't respond to my request to back off, either.

Stormy1 said:
It is more about a pattern of behavior over a period of time. It is actually much harder to prove without a concrete body of evidence.
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I was lucky in that I had a friend in the workplace who was willing to vouch for me. But yeah, a lot of the time unfortunately it's a he said she said sort of thing. Pretty impossible to prove. I feel like the important thing is to say something to someone and hope there's not too much backlash.
 
I'm sorry that the posters in this thread have been hostile towards you based on their own bias. I've also read their other replies to your threads and see a pattern there.
So if I were you, I would not take them seriously. I have never gotten the impression that you were ever trolling.

And regardless of you sharing details of your experience (of which I can empathize with not wanting to do so here) your question is a valid one and does not merit the responses given.
And I agree with you that environments that tolerate inappropriate behavior will also tolerate sexual harassment. I think that's obvious.

I think North American culture does tend to objectify women and as someone mentioned, belittle their accomplishments and opinions--but this is done because it is profitable. I'm mostly thinking in terms of advertisements and mass media. Women do participate in and perpetuate this by buying into it and shaming those women who do not. So, among many, it is acceptable to reduce women to a piece of meat. But I think this is changing due to women realizing they are worth much more, and men jumping on that bandwagon because they realize that in "reducing women to pieces of meat," they are oppressing themselves through having to maintain their own imaginary roles to perpetuate that paradigm. So hooray for you and any other man or woman here attending a "gender studies course at a community college." ;-)

Anyway, you should not have to tolerate being treated inappropriately anywhere in any way.. whether it's someone commenting on your tits or slapping you with a tube. Your complaint should have been taken seriously.

When I was 19, I waited tables while attending school, and this middle aged cook at this dive constantly made comments to me about my body. He was totally disgusting, but I didn't report him. I had no idea I could. I think the farthest I went was to ask him how old he was and then when he told me I stared at him and told him he was working in a dump and that the best he could probably hope for in life was to die alone in a roach infested motel off the interstate some day. That's my only experience with sexual harassment. If it happened to me today, I would have reported him to someone and made it a big fucking deal.
 
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Also, to give the flip side of the coin...

I was also in a situation when I was younger where the sexual harrassment was severe, even crossed over to being flat out molestation. I did not report that incident either. I didn't see anything good coming out of it, and the event in question occured right in front of a security cam...so they either saw it and didnt care or else it was just out of view.

I just learned how to take care of myself and be smart. I had to return to the situation for 2 more years, continually getting more shit, so I ended up developing personas, which still cone out today when I need them too. Protective layering, shall we say.

I still think it worked better than reporting the incident. I personally felt like reporting the situation would just make the situation worse, cause a lot of drama, make everything public (which could result in more backlash) and make me feel like the poor little woman victim, which I did not want to be.

Something like that does not make you feel good about yourself, I know. One of the guys in my situation showed up at my house a couple of months ago to drop off weed to a friend of mine and I flipped my shit when she told me who was coming over. I told her under no circumstances was he to know that itwas mt house he was at, and she was to meet him around the corner and not let him near my front door.

If it affected you so negatively, as it did me, I would advise counseling. I'm not being bitchy or confrontational with you (as i know I have been) when I say I've noticed a pattern of male/female isses with you. If you think sexual harrassment has seriously affected you, counseling can help.

No, these things shouldn't happen, but in reality they do and they will. The best thing you can do is know how to look after yourself.
 
Neverwhere said:
Also, to give the flip side of the coin...

I was also in a situation when I was younger where the sexual harrassment was severe, even crossed over to being flat out molestation. I did not report that incident either. I didn't see anything good coming out of it, and the event in question occured right in front of a security cam...so they either saw it and didnt care or else it was just out of view.

I just learned how to take care of myself and be smart. I had to return to the situation for 2 more years, continually getting more shit, so I ended up developing personas, which still cone out today when I need them too. Protective layering, shall we say.

I still think it worked better than reporting the incident. I personally felt like reporting the situation would just make the situation worse, cause a lot of drama, make everything public (which could result in more backlash) and make me feel like the poor little woman victim, which I did not want to be.

Something like that does not make you feel good about yourself, I know. One of the guys in my situation showed up at my house a couple of months ago to drop off weed to a friend of mine and I flipped my shit when she told me who was coming over. I told her under no circumstances was he to know that itwas mt house he was at, and she was to meet him around the corner and not let him near my front door.

If it affected you so negatively, as it did me, I would advise counseling. I'm not being bitchy or confrontational with you (as i know I have been) when I say I've noticed a pattern of male/female isses with you. If you think sexual harrassment has seriously affected you, counseling can help.

No, these things shouldn't happen, but in reality they do and they will. The best thing you can do is know how to look after yourself.
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I think your story illustrates that among some, treating women like a piece of meat is acceptable. Why do you accept this as just a part of life? If someone robbed you or kidnapped your child would you worry about causing backlash and drama, not report it, and just go for counseling?
 
acd said:
I think your story illustrates that among some, treating women like a piece of meat is acceptable. Why do you accept this as just a part of life? If someone robbed you or kidnapped your child would you worry about causing backlash and drama, not report it, and just go for counseling?
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Because despite the fact I'm an idealistic INFJ, I'm aware that just because things shouldn't be a way doesn't mean they won't.

If you are in a situation at work where it gets as severe as my case, and you can prove it and dosomething about it....by all means.

Every situation is different.

Mine happened in school, and I personally felt the shit it would cause to try and "sort" it wouldn't be worth it. I was right too. What can they say other than stop bullying?

I'm not afraid to be honest about my shit... I was sexually abused when I was a kid, and I grew up in a prett fucked up/severely abusive home enviornment. Life has taught me over and over that no one is gonna give a fuck about you, so you got to take care of yourself. And that's what I did.

I mentioned counseling because the OP said she was outo f hte situation (fired from her job). If the situation is still controlling her in some way, counseling might not be a bad option.
 
acd said:
I think your story illustrates that among some, treating women like a piece of meat is acceptable. Why do you accept this as just a part of life? If someone robbed you or kidnapped your child would you worry about causing backlash and drama, not report it, and just go for counseling?
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Also, acd, you're talking about something COMPLETELY different to the topic at hand....

The backlash that could come from sexual harrassment (esp in my case) would be a worseing of the situation and more shit from outside parties after rumours are started. That's completely different from a clear robbery or...kidnapping?

If you're going ot accuse me of something I didn't say (namely...sexual harrassment is ok) then at least do so in a way that's going to be somewhat productive to discussion.

I do not condone sexual harrassment....but it does and will happen, so the bottom line is I think women need to toughen up and learn to take care of themselves. It's called common sense and safety!
 
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