Shoot First, Ask Questions Later Police Mentality

[Matt3737]

Although I would say, that though your chances of a favorable outcome are much better, being rich and Black doesn't always get you that free pass. Many prominent Black figures (judges, actors, professors, etc) have also reported being pulled over in traffic stops or stopped by police for no apparent reason, other than (possibly) the color of their skin. Again, it's a first person account so proof is rather one sided. However, realistically and statistically the same things do not happen as often to certain groups.

True, and neither are all traffic stops illegitimate. While initially being a signal of poverty (or an assumption of crime as the impoverished are the most likely to resort to criminal activities/they have the least amount to lose and the most to gain), thus an easy target to discriminate against, it later becomes ingrained as a matter of habit. It's become systemic.

 

[arbygil]

True, and neither are all traffic stops illegitimate. While initially being a signal of poverty (or an assumption of crime as the impoverished are the most likely to resort to criminal activities/they have the least amount to lose and the most to gain), thus an easy target to discriminate against, it later becomes ingrained as a matter of habit. It's become systemic.

Agreed. The past few days have made me wonder if the PDs shouldn't just do away with traffic stops altogether, unless the situation is overtly/obviously dangerous to the public (i.e., weaving on the road, 20mph higher than the actual speed limit, or dangerous driving in a school zone. Searching cars because of busted taillights or suspicious behavior should be outlawed. Let the minor traffic "violations" be handled by cameras at traffic lights. It's not like we're all not being filmed anyway, esp. when we go through toll roads. Use that, save some lives.

 

[Matt3737]

Agreed. The past few days have made me wonder if the PDs shouldn't just do away with traffic stops altogether, unless the situation is overtly/obviously dangerous to the public (i.e., weaving on the road, 20mph higher than the actual speed limit, or dangerous driving in a school zone. Searching cars because of busted taillights or suspicious behavior should be outlawed. Let the minor traffic "violations" be handled by cameras at traffic lights. It's not like we're all not being filmed anyway, esp. when we go through toll roads. Use that, save some lives.

Then they'd lose out on a lot of profits from issuing tickets or seizing money "suspected" of being involved in illicit activities. It's pretty bad how far we've become obsessed with making more money in every aspect of society.

 

[Matt3737]

What's worse is when they knowingly allow drugs to be distributed in order to bust the dealer and seize the money (rather than the drugs) for themselves. Also heinous is the practice of seizing property under asset forfeiture laws without a single shred of evidence when they are too poor to defend themselves or when the cost of doing so far exceeds the value of the property seized. It's straight up theft.

 

[arbygil]

Then they'd lose out on a lot of profits from issuing tickets or seizing money "suspected" of being involved in illicit activities. It's pretty bad how far we've become obsessed with making more money in every aspect of society.

Too true. And it's that much worse, when you're poor.

Story time, kiddies: I was in a downward spiral between the police and my car for a few years. I had an old car that was hit or miss with inspections - sometimes it passed, sometimes it didn't - but I couldn't afford to get it fixed. And yes, I would be pulled over and yes I went to court to try and plead a lesser fine. Or I'd make a payment plan. I finally was able to save up for a down payment for another car (with new car payments hooray). Was I in violation? To the letter of the law, sure. Did I deserve the fine? I'm not disputing it. But what was funny to me was, I remember getting pulled over at least four or five times one year while a friend of mine, Jeremy, had the license on his truck expired for over a year and was never pulled over in that same year. Ever. When he told me that, I gawked at him. We both drove to work in the same town. Me? Pulled over. Him? Never. I won't say anything else about it, but it happened. Was the reason because I was Black and Jeremy a White man? Obviously there's no actual evidence to support it. But it made me wonder.

 

[Matt3737]

Dwayne Ferebee, 36, father of four, has been sent to jail four times over the past 12 years on civil contempt charges for failure to pay his court-ordered child support. The first two times, he spent a couple months behind bars until his mom came up with the $3,000 the judge told him he had to pay. The third go-around, he stayed in jail six of the maximum 12-month sentence before he could scrape together the money. The fourth, he had to wait until his fiancée received her tax refund. All told, he spent about a year locked up.

Ferebee, a high school dropout, had a series of run-in with the law and ended up with a felony. You know the formula by now. Lack of education plus felony record equals poverty. Unless you can work two jobs. Which child support enforcement and the court told him to do. “And when am I supposed to see my kids?” he asked.

“All I was saying was, ‘Give me an opportunity instead of throwing me in jail because that just puts me further behind in child support,'” Ferebee says. “Let me find work so I can earn money.’”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...d-support-can-be-a-modern-day-debtors-prison/

An example of debtor's prison and the cycle of poverty and crime that it is perpetuating.

 

[bamf]

but rather that there is an inherent mistrust in these types of criminals by police, whether that's right or wrong is not up to me to decide

Uhh, if you live in an area that is being policed, it kinda is up to you to decide whether this is right or wrong.

 

[brightmoon]

Part of the reason in America that police need to make split second decisions about whether to shoot or not has do with gun culture. As an officer, you never know who has a gun and what they are willing to do with it, so in some circumstances you have only seconds to make a decision. If there weren't so many guns there would be more time. But I've come to the conclusion that most Americans love their guns too much for this to be a realistic solution. Even Bernie Sanders defends the current interpretation of the Second Amendment, like is it something sacred. It baffles most Canadians, myself included. I have yet to hear a convincing argument for why the right to bear arms needs to be an inalienable right similar to freedom of speech or religion. The American constitution has been widelt emulated by many countries in the world and yet only Guatemala has enshrined a right to bear as broad as the American provision.

Race and racism is something Canadians in many regions know too well, in particular with First Nations people and their relationship to law enforcement. There are definite similarities. Are the police more racist than the general population or are they merely reflective of the racism that exists in society as a whole? Difficult to determine. There are certain aspects of institutional racism within policing organization that need to be addressed. like using poor people (often people of colour) as a revenue source for minor traffic violations, Its a complex problem but one that needs to be addressed.

 

[Sriracha]

My thought. Unfortunately there is an incredibly long history of Blacks being mistreated until perhaps (I would guess) within the last 20 years (and even so, the mistreatment/bias/profiling is still being weeded out.) You have generations who were taught that they would never be protected, and they weren't. How can people learn to respect authority, when all they had ever known was persecution by authority? Our history and genetics are INGRAINED into our very DNA fabrication. Black lives matter, in context means: "We matter as much as you."

[video=youtube;tP0awqth0XI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP0awqth0XI[/video]

(The Baton Rouge shooting video did not include the fact that the police did NOT have both man's hands subdued and he was reaching for his pocket ... where there was a gun.)

Police do need more education in order to avoid becoming more trigger happy, and the public needs to be informed on what they should do when they are being arrested. Education and the dying out of a few generations is the only thing that is going to solve this matter. My heart hurts for the good people of this earth, who are labelled something they are not.

 

[Eventhorizon]

The media lies and by doing so creates a self fulfilling prophecy.
I simply dont see a solution until people can come together and have real discussions. Theres no reason to believe that will ever happen though. Look at the war going on between Israel and Palestine. As much as we may all want it, that war will never end through eternity. To many people dont want it to end.

 

[Stu]

I heard this article on NPR
"An NPR analysis of those records shows that the 32-year-old cafeteria worker who was shot and killed by a police officer during a traffic stop in a St. Paul, Minn., suburb, was stopped by police 46 times and racked up more than $6,000 in fines. Another curious statistic: Of all of the stops, only six of them were things a police officer would notice from outside a car — things like speeding or having a busted muffler."

 

[Eventhorizon]

I heard this article on NPR
"An NPR analysis of those records shows that the 32-year-old cafeteria worker who was shot and killed by a police officer during a traffic stop in a St. Paul, Minn., suburb, was stopped by police 46 times and racked up more than $6,000 in fines. Another curious statistic: Of all of the stops, only six of them were things a police officer would notice from outside a car — things like speeding or having a busted muffler."

Something sounds off about that. Like we are not getting the whole story...
Then again maybe the cop was unstable to begin with. Who is to say. But do you say because you have one mentally unstable racist cop that all of them are that way? Half of them? A quarter? Or just one that the news stations are telling you is the norm.

 

[Matt3737]

Something sounds off about that. Like we are not getting the whole story...
Then again maybe the cop was unstable to begin with. Who is to say. But do you say because you have one mentally unstable racist cop that all of them are that way? Half of them? A quarter? Or just one that the news stations are telling you is the norm.

Are you suggesting that the cop that shot and killed the person was the same one that stopped that individual on 46 different occasions and is the only one at fault and is solely to blame? Are you being purposefully idiotic?

 

[Matt3737]

Utah trooper, once given trooper of the year award, is now terminated and facing lawsuit for illegally stopping motorists and falsifying DUI arrests:

Studebaker expects the trial to also explore what Steed's superiors knew about her and when they knew it. One of the exhibits discussed in pre-trial motions has been a 2010 memo by then-Sgt. Rob Nixon warning that Steed was frequently arresting people for driving under the influence of drugs who had no drugs in their systems, and the issue needed to be addressed before defense attorneys learned of it.

Plaintiffs' attorneys have accused Steed of targeting racial minorities and people in old, used cars.

Steed was named Trooper of the Year in 2007. But her credibility was compromised in 2012.

In October 2012, The Salt Lake Tribune reported on the Nixon memo. UHP soon terminated Steed. Prosecutors in Salt Lake and Davis counties, where she worked, dismissed charges against more motorists she had arrested. Dozens of other motorists sought to have their convictions overturned. It is unclear how many of them were successful.

http://www.sltrib.com/home/4120343-155/lawsuit-against-former-utah-trooper-lisa

They only fired her after news of the memo broke because they were all complicit in allowing her behavior (and the money she was pulling in for them) to continue....

 

[the]

The Philando Castile and Alton Sterling videos are all over the media right now. Black Lives Matter is protesting across the country. Minnesota, Louisiana, Texas, and New York are in an uproar. Beyoncé is advocating. The President is addressing the matter from a NATO summit half way across the world.

Yet police officers continue to get away with excessively shooting people dead, at point blank, with little more than an administrative leave or temporary suspension.

Why is this happening? Why is this allowed to continue?

This isn't meant to be a black lives matter/blue lives matter/all lives matter debate.

This is about understanding the force's obligation to protect, serve, and remain justices of the peace; and why there seems to be a disconnect between the tangible meaning of what that oath means and who it applies to.

I am in no way condoning the police force or those who serve it. I have several friends who were trained to be officers, served on the force, or are currently serving. I pray for their safety as much as I pray my friend's black son, and hope he isn't found at the wrong place, at the wrong time.

I don't personally understand how in my state there is still a police union which allows the police who act inappropriately to be put on just administrative paid leave, but I haven't looked into it either. And so I haven't done anything about it. That is why things continue the way they are going - we aren't doing anything about it. The current groups protesting are pretty useless imo, I won't go on as op requested we don't make the thread about those things.



I thought the justice of the peace was a judge?

 

[Stu]

I heard this article on NPR
"An NPR analysis of those records shows that the 32-year-old cafeteria worker who was shot and killed by a police officer during a traffic stop in a St. Paul, Minn., suburb, was stopped by police 46 times and racked up more than $6,000 in fines. Another curious statistic: Of all of the stops, only six of them were things a police officer would notice from outside a car — things like speeding or having a busted muffler."

The point here is that the victim had been stopped 46 times for traffic violations, only six of which where something a cop could notice from outside the car. I drive every day, I keep to five miles of the speed limit and actually come to a full stop at stop signs and when making a right on red. And I am clearly in the minority. People speed and drive carelessly all the freaking time. But the victim seemed to be a magnet for police attention. You can't just say "gee whiz, we will never know what was going on there".

 

[Eventhorizon]

The point here is that the victim had been stopped 46 times for traffic violations, only six of which where something a cop could notice from outside the car. I drive every day, I keep to five miles of the speed limit and actually come to a full stop at stop signs and when making a right on red. And I am clearly in the minority. People speed and drive carelessly all the freaking time. But the victim seemed to be a magnet for police attention. You can't just say "gee whiz, we will never know what was going on there".

I agree. But by the same token you cant jump to conclusions about what the facts are.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Absolutely unquestionably without any doubt, "All lives matter."
And since this thread is clearly not about the shoot first ask questions later as it applies to all of society. Lets just ponder the successful brain washing of a those in society who lack critical thinking skills. Because. ...

 

[Eventhorizon]

Well I guess in a completely unrelated state to the last two shootings there's a handful of dead police officers now and apparently there are IED's planted. This is probably the best way to make police play nice.

There's a database online of all people who have been killed by police. A ton of them are white. Lots of them are latino. Lots of them are black. Lots of them fulfill a multitude of different demographic check boxes. Not saying that racism isn't a thing here but... I mean... Lots of people get gunned down by the police and they're not stopping gay pride parades to get more inclusion or stopping highway traffic or you know... shooting up a police force.

I know I sound dismissive but it seems to be really, really ineffective.

I read something the other day about how MLK never retaliated with violence and all of his protests were made in peace and through that there was change. I don't know why people are rioting and destroying their own cities or shooting each other up, etc. It seems to be making things worse.

Thank you for retaining a calm clear head. You give me hope.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Young black males and police officers are in a deadly game that is influenced and controlled by the history and culture of the US. Implicit beliefs about races and guns override reason. The situation is stronger than each individual. People don't see each other as individuals but as stereotypes, and the right to bear arms causes fear and overreaction. So sad for everyone.

Here is some information that helps to understand why the problem is not easily solved:

https://scienceblog.com/7830/blacks-whites-have-same-fear-reaction-when-seeing-a-black-face/

http://www.citylab.com/work/2016/02/study-psychological-science-black-faces-bias-tamir-rice/460488/

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/11/science-of-racism-prejudice

Im sorry but you are as wrong as can be about the role guns play in America or anywhere for that matter. Guns are inanimate objects. What about the killing in Nice?
A murderer will use whatever tools are at hand.