Symbology & Sentimentality

[Deleted member 16771]

Hello all,

I'm getting really curious about the possible links between being INFJ, and having an affinity for symbols and symbology.

Furthermore, I wonder if this is related to sentimentality; for instance, liking to keep around 'significant' objects. Or more abstractly, having a tendency to imbue objects with meaning.

I notice that @Wyote has cultivated quite a strong sense of personal symbology, that @Ren does it too, and of course @Skarekrow is all over it! I definitely do it.

So, how many of you INFJs (and other types) would characterise yourselves as having an 'affinity with symbols' and/or being sentimental? And what do you think the links are with type, if any?

P.s. I read somewhere that the inferior function of a type usually has a mystical character, so I wonder if it's an inferior Se thing; that INFJs see objects as having some mystery to them.

 

[Wyote]

I wonder if it's an inferior Se thing; that INFJs see objects as having some mystery to them.

I think you're on the right track. Objects, ideas, symbols will be imbued with a sense of mysticism. Some of it holds universal truth on some mysterious level, some of it is personal truth we use to give order to a disorderly reality.

 

[Rowan Tree]

So, how many of you INFJs (and other types) would characterise yourselves as having an 'affinity with symbols' and/or being sentimental?

Definitely. I have always been drawn to symbology and I see this as tied to my affinity for language and mementos—there's something profound and reassuring about the way one thing (a symbol, a tactile item, a sound) can conjure and order something else. In MBTI speak, it concretizes the unconscious, prelinguistic insights of Ni. I think especially of Carl Jung's love of mandalas

.

And what do you think the links are with type, if any? P.s. I read somewhere that the inferior function of a type usually has a mystical character, so I wonder if it's an inferior Se thing; that INFJs see objects as having some mystery to them.

I think you're on the right track. Objects, ideas, symbols will be imbued with a sense of mysticism. Some of it holds universal truth on some mysterious level, some of it is personal truth we use to give order to a disorderly reality.

Absolutely agree. The contemplation of symbols takes on a calming, meditative dimension.

I suspect INFPs do this too, but differently. For INFJs symbols and metaphors perhaps give order and communicability to our Ni, which we can then make coherent using Ti—coming together to create elliptical, suggestive representations of the universal or ineffable. Whereas for INFPs, symbols and metaphors communicate the concrete appearance of the universal or ineffable (Ne) in the world of people and phenomena (Fe-Si). That is, INFJs enjoy symbols as particulars (the mundane) pointing to universals (the metaphysical) and INFPs as universals substantiated in the mundane. These are half-formed ideas, which I have developed after watching @Ren's excellent videos talking about MBTI and writing in relation to Proust (INFP) and Dostoyevsky (INFJ).

 

[Wyote]

That is, INFJs enjoy symbols as particulars (the mundane) pointing to universals (the metaphysical) and INFPs as universals substantiated in the mundane. These are half-formed ideas

Pretty damn good for a half formed idea

 

[Rowan Tree]

Pretty damn good for a half formed idea

 

[Ginny]

I think our sentimentality may stem from the Demon Si. We (have to) build connections differently and thus do so by representatives, objects holding the memories we cannot keep readily present in our own minds. The Se-object is endowed with everything that we associate with that object, like a pressed flower could stand for a specific feeling, a place, a moment, an idea - perhaps all at once, reminding you of a moment where you had an idea in a specific place due to a feeling.

It might tie in well with our affection, or affinity, with symbology. I remember the first time I was confronted with that topic was when I read The DaVinci Code, about 15 years ago (feels like). It mentioned the phi-ratio and its relation to nature, and I was immediately drawn in. I was too young at the time to understand the meaning, but the symbolics has always stayed with me in some way. For me, it's a way to connect with something bigger than myself, like I was entrusted with part of some secret to the ways of the universe. However, always walking the line between skepticism and faith, I am trying not to fall into any traps that would lead to conspiracy theories, as it is the path some believers of esoterics seem to be inevitably bound for.

I don't know if I could say that I had an affinity for symbolism, and if so, I'd say that it is something found only recently. There are certainly many more people on the forum who do this more naturally and therefore also with more confidence, knowledge and meaning behind it. I guess I am still looking for meaning and truth, not confident in ever attaining it, but still faithful in making the odd discovery along the way.

 

[Rowan Tree]

I think our sentimentality may stem from the Demon Si.

The shadow functions are fascinating and make a lot of intuitive sense. I've always had a predilection for hoarding (collecting, if I'm engaging in self-flattery) objects, and it's difficult to let go of anything. On the other hand, organising information about my past is a struggle, as it is invariably distorted, non-chronological and suffused with biased thinking. My account of my childhood is quite different from my siblings (at a guess, ISFP, ESTJ, ENTJ).

I guess I am still looking for meaning and truth, not confident in ever attaining it, but still faithful in making the odd discovery along the way.

I can definitely relate to that. The more I learn and intuit, generally the less sure I am. But then doubt is perhaps a sign of a more mature faith.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

@Rowan Tree Yes, I'm definitely attracted to mandalas, too, and things with radial symmetry like eclipses and sun symbols. I think what you said about INFPs is very revealing - that it's 'clearly' a type thing in a very specific way.

@Wyote @Ginny After what you guys have said, I think it's clearly an inferior/shadow function thing - Ginny what you said about Si rings true to me. I've never been good at remembering details unless I have to, and tend to prefer organising information visually and spacially, in diagrams, &c.

Also, what do you think of this... I've always had an attraction to artisans, especially blacksmiths and people like that. I think it's a later-life yearning to develop Se, and I can see myself making meaningful objects with my hands when I'm older. I spoke to my good INTJ (same inferior Se) friend about this, and he's finding the same fascination (he's 60) after his semi-retirement from teaching.

I wonder, too, if anyone identifies with this:

In video games that allow you to craft your own gear, I found myself engaging in all kinds of weird symbolic behaviours... So Skyrim, the soul I used to enchant a weapon would be important (say, a significant enemy), and I would symbolically 'consecrate' the things in various ways, like throwing it in a lake or something. And I find that the more the game accommodates this kind of meaning-creating play, the more I enjoy it.

 

[Rowan Tree]

In video games that allow you to craft your own gear, I found myself engaging in all kinds of weird symbolic behaviours... So Skyrim, the soul I used to enchant a weapon would be important (say, a significant enemy), and I would symbolically 'consecrate' the things in various ways, like throwing it in a lake or something. And I find that the more the game accommodates this kind of meaning-creating play, the more I enjoy it.

Absolutely. My favorite games are Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn and Westwood's Blade Runner and in both, I liked the way objects took on a significance to the broader story. And particularly in BGII, I enjoyed acquiring a quest item in the Wizard's plotline that you can name or leaving magical items I wasn't going to use in locations that had symbolic resonance (like a weapon with special abilities against the undead in a crypt). One thing I did in BGII is collect every unique magical item in the game and try to hold on to them all, which even with bags of holding required a lot of creative loot management and didn't really serve any purpose, but always felt incredibly important.

 

[Fidicen]

I used to hold on to symbols and collect all kinds of items that I associated with some event. However, as I've grown older and had to move several times (including to a different country), I've started to think that I don't want to hoard things anymore, just the memories should be enough. I do still have somewhere a big box of love letters etc. which I don't want to throw away, but I haven't looked at the content for years... or more like decades by now. It just sits in the basement, but throwing those things away would feel like denying my past. Of course memories can be symbols too, and we all do that, cling to some memory of a happy event that seems to be symbolic of an entire relationship. So in that sense, even if I don't collect mementos anymore, the power of symbols is still embedded in me.

 

[Ginny]

Also, what do you think of this... I've always had an attraction to artisans, especially blacksmiths and people like that. I think it's a later-life yearning to develop Se, and I can see myself making meaningful objects with my hands when I'm older. I spoke to my good INTJ (same inferior Se) friend about this, and he's finding the same fascination (he's 60) after his semi-retirement from teaching.

I have always envied artists for what they can do. Somehow I felt that not being able to produce (m)any details made my art inferior, so I never produced any. I picked up poetry this summer, but that's not very Se-like. However, I also have a yearning to develop Se more - have had since I started missing some of the stuff we did in PE. Back in uni, my BF was studying Modern Japan and one of the lecturers organised/offered her students a sports outing, thus I got to play badminton weekly. It truly made me feel alive sometimes. Long story short, while I am not exactly sharing the fascination for forging, I am quite infatuated with the skill of archery. [Edit: Just realised it's not an artistic endeavour per se, more like an activity of the period. It's still true though.]
There may be some functional relation to developing Se, but in some ways I believe it's not necessarily bound to a specific age which activity it is that we would love to pursue.

I wonder, too, if anyone identifies with this:

In video games that allow you to craft your own gear, I found myself engaging in all kinds of weird symbolic behaviours... So Skyrim, the soul I used to enchant a weapon would be important (say, a significant enemy), and I would symbolically 'consecrate' the things in various ways, like throwing it in a lake or something. And I find that the more the game accommodates this kind of meaning-creating play, the more I enjoy it.

LOL. I never quite managed to lose myself in the worlds from The Elder Scrolls. Firstly, because the first-person POV makes me sick (tried diff methods), and second because the world was so big that discovering it for yourself without help seemed virtually impossible. I would lose track by listening to stories and accepting side quests I am not equipped to handle so early in the game and therefore after a while I lost interest.
On the other hand, the way you say what is possible does make it sound very enticing.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I also wanted to ask you guys about what I might call 'constructed sentiments' (any better phrases?) - things like mottoes and personal symbols.

What do you think of this? Is it pompous to have a 'motto' that is meaningful to you, or is it all part of the same symbolic thinking with personal purpose?

I have a ring which I got engraved with a motto to do with endurance under all circumstances. I ended up making promises 'on it' (in a very secular way, mind you) - typically things like 'I promise myself to complete such and such work'. It was related to my sleep disorder, since I would often have to stay awake for up to 50 hours to cope with a week, so willpower was very important. It was important to me that the ring never got 'polluted' or 'compromised' with a broken promise, so now, after more than a decade, it carries a very definite symbolic power. I have never broken a promise/oath to myself made 'on' that ring, so I know that when I do it, it's serious business . Consequently, I know that deep down I'm not serious about something if I don't promise on it, so it works as a bit of an unconscious mirror in that regard.

What else? I like to have dedications written in books if someone gives me one as a gift, and I like the idea of passing these things on to my children. In fact, that whole category of things to pass on is very important to me - to infuse their lives with deep meaning and provenance.

Does anyone have any speculations as to what such sentimentality might be 'for'? Like, what might be it's evolutionary function? Spiritual or psychological function?

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I have always envied artists for what they can do. Somehow I felt that not being able to produce (m)any details made my art inferior, so I never produced any. I picked up poetry this summer, but that's not very Se-like. However, I also have a yearning to develop Se more - have had since I started missing some of the stuff we did in PE. Back in uni, my BF was studying Modern Japan and one of the lecturers organised/offered her students a sports outing, thus I got to play badminton weekly. It truly made me feel alive sometimes. Long story short, while I am not exactly sharing the fascination for forging, I am quite infatuated with the skill of archery. [Edit: Just realised it's not an artistic endeavour per se, more like an activity of the period. It's still true though.]
There may be some functional relation to developing Se, but in some ways I believe it's not necessarily bound to a specific age which activity it is that we would love to pursue.


LOL. I never quite managed to lose myself in the worlds from The Elder Scrolls. Firstly, because the first-person POV makes me sick (tried diff methods), and second because the world was so big that discovering it for yourself without help seemed virtually impossible. I would lose track by listening to stories and accepting side quests I am not equipped to handle so early in the game and therefore after a while I lost interest.
On the other hand, the way you say what is possible does make it sound very enticing.

No I think you're right. Archery and other skills like that belong to the same Se mystical fascination, even though they don't create tangible objects. I feel the same way about swordsmanship from the past, and archery, martial arts, calligraphy, &c. For us such physical skills tend to have a mystical quality definitely.

 

[Ginny]

I also wanted to ask you guys about what I might call 'constructed sentiments' (any better phrases?) - things like mottoes and personal symbols.

What do you think of this? Is it pompous to have a 'motto' that is meaningful to you, or is it all part of the same symbolic thinking with personal purpose?

I have a ring which I got engraved with a motto to do with endurance under all circumstances. I ended up making promises 'on it' (in a very secular way, mind you) - typically things like 'I promise myself to complete such and such work'. It was related to my sleep disorder, since I would often have to stay awake for up to 50 hours to cope with a week, so willpower was very important. It was important to me that the ring never got 'polluted' or 'compromised' with a broken promise, so now, after more than a decade, it carries a very definite symbolic power. I have never broken a promise/oath to myself made 'on' that ring, so I know that when I do it, it's serious business . Consequently, I know that deep down I'm not serious about something if I don't promise on it, so it works as a bit of an unconscious mirror in that regard.

What else? I like to have dedications written in books if someone gives me one as a gift, and I like the idea of passing these things on to my children. In fact, that whole category of things to pass on is very important to me - to infuse their lives with deep meaning and provenance.

Does anyone have any speculations as to what such sentimentality might be 'for'? Like, what might be it's evolutionary function? Spiritual or psychological function?

It's not at all pompous. I have nothing to swear by or on, I also try not to make promises that I am not sure I can keep. But I do have an extended metaphor that I developed, though it surrounds the picture of myself that I seem to often lose sight of. So the wolf that I keep mentioning, it is an image that I have kept feeding, and I think it will bear fruits too.

It could have a psychological explanation, maybe that by doing this a part of you lives on and you can immortalise yourself. Perhaps you don't see it as such either, and it is a part of you that you want to give to the world, with the intention for them to keep going with you have started.

 

[Rowan Tree]

s it pompous to have a 'motto' that is meaningful to you, or is it all part of the same symbolic thinking with personal purpose?

Definitely the latter. For me, Roman playwright Terence's line 'Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto' ('I am human, and I think nothing human is alien to me') has always been especially meaningful. And then just so many quotes from Epictetus and Cioran, for radically different moods.

I like to have dedications written in books if someone gives me one as a gift, and I like the idea of passing these things on to my children.

Completely.

Does anyone have any speculations as to what such sentimentality might be 'for'?

I have always seen this as an end in itself, so in that sense a spiritual good. That is, to connect with what's beyond language and with one's history, both personal and the histories into which we are all born. I have a complicated and fraught relationship with Perennial philosophy—as someone on the left—but I do agree with them that there's something like a universal metaphysical intuition.

 

[Ren]

Hello all,

I'm getting really curious about the possible links between being INFJ, and having an affinity for symbols and symbology.

Furthermore, I wonder if this is related to sentimentality; for instance, liking to keep around 'significant' objects. Or more abstractly, having a tendency to imbue objects with meaning.

I notice that @Wyote has cultivated quite a strong sense of personal symbology, that @Ren does it too, and of course @Skarekrow is all over it! I definitely do it.

So, how many of you INFJs (and other types) would characterise yourselves as having an 'affinity with symbols' and/or being sentimental? And what do you think the links are with type, if any?

P.s. I read somewhere that the inferior function of a type usually has a mystical character, so I wonder if it's an inferior Se thing; that INFJs see objects as having some mystery to them.

Inferior Se probably plays a role, but I'd be inclined to say that it does in tandem with Ni, along the "Ni-Se axis" or whatever it's called. A lot of the symbols I make use of in open monism - well, circle, cross, ground, etc. - seem to be the products of that interplay. Personally though, I see them more as vehicles for my ideas, than I see them as mystical objects that I imbue with meaning.

These are half-formed ideas, which I have developed after watching @Ren's excellent videos talking about MBTI and writing in relation to Proust (INFP) and Dostoyevsky (INFJ).

 

[Wyote]

I see them more as vehicles for my ideas, than I see them as mystical objects that I imbue with meaning.

You've made them into vehicles, which serves a purpose, thus meaning. I can't drive your circles and crosses, I'd crash hardcore

 

[sassafras]

I have an affinity for trees. The tree of life is a personal symbol for me. I didn't consciously choose it, I just noticed one day that I've been accumulating things with this symbol over the years.

But general, I've always enjoyed working with archetypes and patterns; I've been fiddling around with tarot cards for over a decade now and recently taken an interest in the alchemical and spiritual properties of herbs and different plants.

I'm slowly but surely morphing into a spinster witch.

I have nothing to contribute to the discussion on mbti and how this factors.

 

[Skarekrow]

Well....there is quite a lot of symbolism/symbology that exists within my life and mind.
It’s a large part of how I access my subconscious imho.
The tattoos I have are all symbols/sigils/writing rather than pictures or something of that nature.
I do tarot readings for people...have done...and also imho it is not connecting to some spirit guiding you, but rather it is a way to access the collective consciousness underlying it all.
I actively use symbols daily when meditating, as again...I believe some are keys into our subconscious, while others just kick in the door.
I do have certain objects that are imbued with either sentimentality...like the glass egg that used to be my Dad’s, drawings by my Son over the years, or certain other objects I see not so much with sentimentality but rather either enjoyment or it spurns my imagination or acts as inspiration in some way.
Not sure what that says about my Ni or Ti or Fe or Se or any of that.
I do own some “magic(k)al” objects.
I’ll let you all discuss what you think.

 

[G4RiiM]

Hello all,

I'm getting really curious about the possible links between being INFJ, and having an affinity for symbols and symbology.

Furthermore, I wonder if this is related to sentimentality; for instance, liking to keep around 'significant' objects. Or more abstractly, having a tendency to imbue objects with meaning.

I notice that @Wyote has cultivated quite a strong sense of personal symbology, that @Ren does it too, and of course @Skarekrow is all over it! I definitely do it.

So, how many of you INFJs (and other types) would characterise yourselves as having an 'affinity with symbols' and/or being sentimental? And what do you think the links are with type, if any?

P.s. I read somewhere that the inferior function of a type usually has a mystical character, so I wonder if it's an inferior Se thing; that INFJs see objects as having some mystery to them.

Yeahh sure I like to keep around significant objects, just not too much. Mostly i like to imbue objects with meaning. numbers, symbols, personal meaning. Also I notice numbers everywhere and often link em to synchronicity, I aint always right though.

Confucius say:
“Signs and symbols rule the world, not words nor laws.” idk if I agree