terrorist action of israel vs apathy

[the]

I just want to throw out there that none of us are in the situation of fighting the Hamas. And I'm not sure how many people speaking out in this thread have ever even been in a war. I haven't. However my dad was, and he has talked a bit about this topic. The Hamas is a terrorist organization that was pestering Israel. Israel had enough so chose to respond. Now let me ask you this. would you not respond to your fullest capacity in war? Of course you would. Also, in war, you don't always have time to fully think things through. Sometimes you must make a decision, and it's not always going to be the best one. Now, that being said, Israel also doesn't seem to be doing all they can to reduce such mistakes and therefore they are at fault for that. I don't blame them for the use of force or there determination to remove this threat. However, they have the capability to do more. But not always. There's plenty of cases where Israel warned an area that it was going to be bombed the next day or later that day, and the people choose or was forced not to leave. That's not isrsels fault in my opinion. Either people should leave or else they are fulfilling the basic law of natural selection. Or, it's the Hamas thhat where holding people there. It's Israel's fault for every time they bombed or attacked without warning. In my opinion both sides are at fault.

Hey heads up were gonna blow up all yer shit. If you don't get out then yer gonna die too. #imheroic #notgonnabeavictimanymore

 

[Kanamori]

Researcher: Suicide terrorism linked to military occupation

Robert Pape, a University of Chicago political science professor and former Air Force lecturer, will present findings on Capitol Hill on Tuesday that argue that the majority of suicide terrorism around the world since 1980 has had a common cause: military occupation.

Pape and his team of researchers draw on data produced by a six-year study of suicide terrorist attacks around the world that was partially funded by the Defense Department's Defense Threat Reduction Agency. They have compiled the terrorism statistics in a publicly available database comprising some 10,000 records on some 2,200 suicide terrorism attacks, dating back to the first suicide terrorism attack of modern times – the 1983 truck bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, which killed 241 U.S. Marines.

"We have lots of evidence now that when you put the foreign military presence in, it triggers suicide terrorism campaigns, ... and that when the foreign forces leave, it takes away almost 100 percent of the terrorist campaign," Pape said in an interview last week on his findings.

Pape said there has been a dramatic spike in suicide bombings in Afghanistan since U.S. forces began to expand their presence to the south and east of the country in 2006. While there were a total of 12 suicide attacks from 2001 to 2005 in Afghanistan when the U.S. had a relatively limited troop presence of a few thousand troops mostly in Kabul, since 2006 there have been more than 450 suicide attacks in Afghanistan – and they are growing more lethal, Pape said.
Deaths due to suicide attacks in Afghanistan have gone up by a third in the year since President Barack Obama added 30,000 more U.S. troops. "It is not making it any better," Pape said.

Pape believes his findings have important implications even for countries where the U.S. does not have a significant direct military presence but is perceived by the population to be indirectly occupying.

For instance, across the border from Afghanistan, suicide terrorism exploded in Pakistan in 2006 as the U.S. put pressure on then-Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf "to divert 100,000 Pakistani army troops from their [perceived] main threat [India] to western Pakistan," Pape said.

Based on his findings, Pape does not advocate a "cut and run," precipitous withdrawal from Afghanistan but what he calls "off-shore balancing." In Afghanistan, he recommends a two-to-three-year plan, that
would in the first year freeze the number of U.S. forces in the country while intensifying political and economic development efforts, in particular, in Afghanistan's Pashtun south and east, followed by a U.S. military drawdown over two to three years – similar to the strategy in Iraq.

Pape and his colleagues will give an all-day presentation Tuesday at the Capitol Hill Visitor Center Congressional Auditorium, in an event co-sponsored by the University of Chicago Project on Security and Terrorism and the New America Foundation (Pape speaks at 10:15 a.m., and the event will be streamed at Steve Clemons's blog, The Washington Note.). His findings are also coming out in a book, co-authored with James Feldman, called "Cutting the Fuse: The Explosion of Global Suicide Terrorism and How to Stop It," published this month by the University of Chicago.

It seems like it should be obvious with just a little empathy for the occupied... Soviet citizens were reduced to stealing bricks from walls and defacing things in their protests, faced with the prospect of gulags from open dissent, and the thing still fell apart under its own oppressive weight. Wouldn't it be just a little extreme to have Israeli patrols in Gaza everyday, and do you really think that's going to keep them from making suicide bombs anyway?

 

[just me]

Now we will see what will happen next.

 

[just me]

But, of course: more rockets demanding a seaport so they can build a military against Israel. What a shame. That would never lead to peace with Hamas.

 

[dogman6126]

Hey heads up were gonna blow up all yer shit. If you don't get out then yer gonna die too. #imheroic #notgonnabeavictimanymore

Well that's a fact of war. If the Hamas want to hide their weapons behind civilians, Israel doesn't much of another choice.

 

[the]

Well that's a fact of war. If the Hamas want to hide their weapons behind civilians, Israel doesn't much of another choice.

They certainly arent seeking one.

 

[dogman6126]

They certainly arent seeking one.

It's easy to say that but we don't really know what Israel is doing in respect to finding another solution. They could have a team of scientists or philophers or advisors or whatever trying to find a solution. One just might not be avaliabe. Of course this just is a hypothetical, no bases for saying as such. I'm just saying it's easy to say things like that, but you don't have much reason to say that. They very well could be and you and I just don't know it. On the other hand, you could be right. However it is wrong of you to assume.

 

[Skarekrow]

It seems like it should be obvious with just a little empathy for the occupied... Soviet citizens were reduced to stealing bricks from walls and defacing things in their protests, faced with the prospect of gulags from open dissent, and the thing still fell apart under its own oppressive weight. Wouldn't it be just a little extreme to have Israeli patrols in Gaza everyday, and do you really think that's going to keep them from making suicide bombs anyway?

Not at all…I just found the report interesting.
It was for all those on this thread that have already judged all of the Palestinian people as terrorists regardless of their age or situation.
I think the ONLY way for the violence to end is for the occupation to end.

 

[Skarekrow]

I just want to throw out there that none of us are in the situation of fighting the Hamas. And I'm not sure how many people speaking out in this thread have ever even been in a war. I haven't. However my dad was, and he has talked a bit about this topic. The Hamas is a terrorist organization that was pestering Israel. Israel had enough so chose to respond. Now let me ask you this. would you not respond to your fullest capacity in war? Of course you would. Also, in war, you don't always have time to fully think things through. Sometimes you must make a decision, and it's not always going to be the best one. Now, that being said, Israel also doesn't seem to be doing all they can to reduce such mistakes and therefore they are at fault for that. I don't blame them for the use of force or there determination to remove this threat. However, they have the capability to do more. But not always. There's plenty of cases where Israel warned an area that it was going to be bombed the next day or later that day, and the people choose or was forced not to leave. That's not isrsels fault in my opinion. Either people should leave or else they are fulfilling the basic law of natural selection. Or, it's the Hamas thhat where holding people there. It's Israel's fault for every time they bombed or attacked without warning. In my opinion both sides are at fault.

I know that there is probably some serious animosity on behalf of the Israeli soldiers who are fighting Hamas…but that is not an excuse for committing war crimes.
There are pretty detailed laws written by the UN in regards to being the occupying force of another people.
They are supposed to protect those they occupy, not end up with the huge casualties we have now…now I can understand why this can be more difficult than it seems…but you also have to realize that the whole idea of them being occupied is in fact also killing Palestinians.
There have been many reports of no water, no food, no medicine ( including things like supplies for dialysis), no building supplies, no fuel, no travel, etc….this has been going on for 60 years now…so tell me, if we as Americans we occupied for 60 years by another group in the world, and they treated you worse than animals (if you like, I can show you the legal documentation that gives all the rights to the Israelis and no human rights to the Palestinians), they killed you friends and possibly family, they bulldozed your house that you saved and worked hard for, in order to build homes for the occupying parties family.
Yes, there are many cases where Israel sent maps showing what areas are safe from bombing…such as the UN school or numerous other sites that have been bombed anyway…we are talking close to 2000 casualties for the Palestinians…most were civilians. Israel has seen 3 civilians die so far…and 60 or so soldiers.
Israel claims that the Palestinians have built the tunnel system to commit terrorist acts…perhaps in some cases it has…..but they have shown that they built them in order to smuggle in things like medicine that the Israeli have embargoed at the city gates….people and nations from all over the world have donated food, goods, and medicine for the Palestinians only to see it stopped by the embargo.
And hey….people cannot just leave. They have nowhere to go….they can barely travel from on side of Gaza to the other without being harassed.
This goes for the supposed “human shields” which has been shown to not only be bullshit, but in fact what the Israeli’s have been doing to the Palestinian children.
If the “terrorists” are shooting rockets outside of your house…what are you going to do? Yell at them to quit? Where do they go to fight? Out in the nonexistent open fields of war?
They are packed like sardines in Gaza.
Yes…firing rockets that cannot be aimed non discriminately at Israel is considered a war crime…and many war crimes have been committed by both sides…but mainly it has been Israel setting the precedent. Responding to such rocket attacks with heavy artillery, F-16s, etc, etc. and wiping out whole neighborhoods and families, to kill one or two militants in an area that you hold under occupation is fucked.
Hamas doesn’t hold people in Gaza…Israel has them locked in like prisoners.
Yes, both sides have done things that would be considered “reprehensible”, but the sheer disproportionate amount of weapons, tanks, jets, soldiers, etc…that Israel has, also makes them responsible for seeing that it doesn’t kill civilians if possible.
They have video of them blowing up militants in crowds or neighborhoods where it has been shown that had they just waited a minute…they would be exposed and the casualties limited.
It is only the media in the US that is showing this war, in this manner….the rest of the world doesn’t support Israel.

 

[the]

It's easy to say that but we don't really know what Israel is doing in respect to finding another solution. They could have a team of scientists or philophers or advisors or whatever trying to find a solution. One just might not be avaliabe. Of course this just is a hypothetical, no bases for saying as such. I'm just saying it's easy to say things like that, but you don't have much reason to say that. They very well could be and you and I just don't know it. On the other hand, you could be right. However it is wrong of you to assume.

There is no moral law against assumptions.

and really i dont don't care that Israel is being attacked.. They laid claim to that land based on their own religious texts. They were put there by the US (big mistake, I agree) while the Arabs were already living there. The state of Israel (mostly Jews I presume) are the aggressors here since decades ago.

 

[sprinkles]

I know that there is probably some serious animosity on behalf of the Israeli soldiers who are fighting Hamas…but that is not an excuse for committing war crimes.
There are pretty detailed laws written by the UN in regards to being the occupying force of another people.
They are supposed to protect those they occupy, not end up with the huge casualties we have now…now I can understand why this can be more difficult than it seems…but you also have to realize that the whole idea of them being occupied is in fact also killing Palestinians.
There have been many reports of no water, no food, no medicine ( including things like supplies for dialysis), no building supplies, no fuel, no travel, etc….this has been going on for 60 years now…so tell me, if we as Americans we occupied for 60 years by another group in the world, and they treated you worse than animals (if you like, I can show you the legal documentation that gives all the rights to the Israelis and no human rights to the Palestinians), they killed you friends and possibly family, they bulldozed your house that you saved and worked hard for, in order to build homes for the occupying parties family.
Yes, there are many cases where Israel sent maps showing what areas are safe from bombing…such as the UN school or numerous other sites that have been bombed anyway…we are talking close to 2000 casualties for the Palestinians…most were civilians. Israel has seen 3 civilians die so far…and 60 or so soldiers.
Israel claims that the Palestinians have built the tunnel system to commit terrorist acts…perhaps in some cases it has…..but they have shown that they built them in order to smuggle in things like medicine that the Israeli have embargoed at the city gates….people and nations from all over the world have donated food, goods, and medicine for the Palestinians only to see it stopped by the embargo.
And hey….people cannot just leave. They have nowhere to go….they can barely travel from on side of Gaza to the other without being harassed.
This goes for the supposed “human shields” which has been shown to not only be bullshit, but in fact what the Israeli’s have been doing to the Palestinian children.
If the “terrorists” are shooting rockets outside of your house…what are you going to do? Yell at them to quit? Where do they go to fight? Out in the nonexistent open fields of war?
They are packed like sardines in Gaza.
Yes…firing rockets that cannot be aimed non discriminately at Israel is considered a war crime…and many war crimes have been committed by both sides…but mainly it has been Israel setting the precedent. Responding to such rocket attacks with heavy artillery, F-16s, etc, etc. and wiping out whole neighborhoods and families, to kill one or two militants in an area that you hold under occupation is fucked.
Hamas doesn’t hold people in Gaza…Israel has them locked in like prisoners.
Yes, both sides have done things that would be considered “reprehensible”, but the sheer disproportionate amount of weapons, tanks, jets, soldiers, etc…that Israel has, also makes them responsible for seeing that it doesn’t kill civilians if possible.
They have video of them blowing up militants in crowds or neighborhoods where it has been shown that had they just waited a minute…they would be exposed and the casualties limited.
It is only the media in the US that is showing this war, in this manner….the rest of the world doesn’t support Israel.

A big part of the problem is that Gaza is literally a no-man's land for Israel. Hamas is not recognized as a valid governing body, so Israel really doesn't have anyone to negotiate with in Gaza. Therefore this cannot end peacefully. Essentially from their view they are occupying land that is claimed by an entity which has no right to exist or claim that land - i.e. terrorists.

They can't let them be because according to Israel they're not legitimate and they can't outright exterminate them, so they go on with this cruel occupation which can never end well for the innocents caught in between.

 

[muir]

I understand everything behind it. I know Israel and the USA are in bed together. I think it's garbage that the US won't take a seat on the UN but so it goes. They won't be a super power for that much longer, the country is fucked.

I am not so much of a fan of the federal reserve or the central bank or not having a gold standard or any of that, but I also don't worry about it. I guess that's because I am secure and don't have anything to lose (no house, car paid in full, no family to support, next to no debts, good paying job, etc). I used to be afraid of all this kind of stuff but I just turned myself off it several years ago because the whole thing is depressing.

Ignorance is bliss.

Problem is that ignorance is not proving bliss

Its because the baby boomer generation took their eye of the ball that we are now inheriting all these problems

I'm a similar age to you.

Our generation is inheriting a shitstorm!

We have fukishima, we have chemtrails, we have world war 3 brewing, we have economic collapse on the horizen and all because the baby boomer generation switched their brains off and started worshipping at the alter of consumer-ism

You might say it doesn't affect you but think about what happens when the economy breaks down. Look at chicago for example....the city goes bust, the water fails, crime runs rampant, people lose their homes....these problems spill over and affect other people

I think there is definately an order in which the affects of societal collapse affect people with the wealthiest people being the most buffered but it will all affect them in the long run too

The truth is we are all inter-connected in so many ways now particularly with globalisation

So a nuclear meltdown in Japan will now affect the western seaboard of the US. If you eat any fish pulled from there it will affect you too.

When you realise that the same network of people are behind all these corporations and wars then it becomes clear that all these problems ARE related

So society is going to have to make a stand at some point. It might not be today, it might not be this year....but we're heading for some sort of reset

 

[just me]

Do you see the terrorists telling the Gazans to get out of harms' way?

 

[muir]

Well that's a fact of war. If the Hamas want to hide their weapons behind civilians, Israel doesn't much of another choice.

Israel created Hamas

Also gaza is incredibly densly populated. Anywhere you put weapons there will be civilians nearby

Imagine if new york was a seperate state. Where would it put its weapons that wopuld not be near civilians?

You could put them all in central park and then your enemy fly in and drop bombs on your entire weapons cache...that would be clever wouldn't it?

 

[muir]

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014...onism-uses-jews-everywhere-human-shields.html

[h=1]Debunking the Claim that Palestinians Use Civilians as “Human Shields”[/h] Posted on July 26, 2014 by WashingtonsBlog
[h=3]“By Falsely Associating Itself with Judaism, Zionism Uses Jews Everywhere as Human Shields”[/h] The Nation debunks the claim that Palestinians are using civilians as “human shields”

This is arguably one of Israel’s most insidious claims, because it blames Palestinians for their own death and deprives them of even their victimhood. Israel made the same argument in its war against Lebanon in 2006 and in its war against Palestinians in 2008. Notwithstanding its military cartoon sketches, Israel has yet to prove that Hamas has used civilian infrastructure to store military weapons. The two cases where Hamas indeed stored weapons in UNRWA schools, the schools were empty. UNRWA discovered the rockets and publicly condemned the violation of its sanctity.
International human rights organizations that have investigated these claims have determined that they are not true. It attributed the high death toll in Israel’s 2006 war on Lebanon to Israel’s indiscriminate attacks. Human Rights Watch notes:

The evidence Human Rights Watch uncovered in its on-the-ground investigations refutes [Israel’s] argument…we found strong evidence that Hezbollah stored most of its rockets in bunkers and weapon storage facilities located in uninhabited fields and valleys, that in the vast majority of cases Hezbollah fighters left populated civilian areas as soon as the fighting started, and that Hezbollah fired the vast majority of its rockets from pre-prepared positions outside villages.
​

In fact, only Israeli soldiers have systematically used Palestinians as human shields. Since Israel’s incursion into the West Bank in 2002, it has used Palestinians as human shields by tying young Palestinians onto the hoods of their cars or forcing them to go into a home where a potential militant may be hiding.
​

The Guardian reports:

These claims [that Hamas is using human shields] have not been backed up by independent reporting from international journalists covering the war from Gaza …. Many said nowhere in Gaza was safe, so they saw little point in abandoning their homes.
Others cited worries about not knowing the identities of people who would be their new neighbours; they could be evacuating a familiar neighbourhood for one that was a militant stronghold and others were simply too terrified to go out on the streets. Many media reports said there was no evidence of coercion by Hamas.
In fact, tens of thousands of people have fled their homes for what they hope is a safer place. UNRWA reports that more than 140,000 people have sought shelter in its properties; churches and mosques have been overwhelmed by displaced civilians; the grounds of the Shifa hospital in Gaza City have begun to resemble a makeshift refugee camp. These families are in fear of their lives, but they overwhelmingly cite Israeli bombing and shelling as the cause, rather than threats from Hamas.
Gaza is one of the most overcrowded places on earth. Almost two million people are crammed into a strip of land just 25 miles long and between three and a half and seven miles wide – roughly the same size as the Isle of Wight. In general there are few opportunities to leave; and in the midst of a conflict such as this, there is no exit.
The current war is not being fought on a conventional battlefield. Israel is pounding Gaza from the air, and its troops are increasingly fighting battles against a guerrilla army in densely populated urban areas – which constitute much of the Gaza Strip.
***
Israel, meanwhile, does not have an unblemished record in the use of human shields. In 2010, two soldiers were convicted in an IDF military court of using an 11-year-old Palestinian boy as a human shield in its 2008-09 operation in Gaza. The pair ordered the child to search bags they suspected of being booby-trapped.
​

Indeed, Monique Buckner provocatively tweets:

By falsely associating itself with Judaism, zionism uses Jews everywhere as human shields
​

(Background.)

 

[just me]

NY is not a separate state. The civilians run from the bombs, so why doesn't Hamas ask them to leave Gaza City if they plan to fire weapons and draw fire from there? With a population of over a half million, it seems they would at the very least have them move away from the area before they fired from it. Bet you won't see that happening, because civilian casualties are part of their war.....a very large part of it. They do not care for the Palestinians who live there, and it is obvious. Even Hezbollah built hospitals and helped civilians. No sense in trying to protect the audacity behind this mind game.

 

[muir]

NY is not a separate state.

No but i'm using it as an imagination exercise so that you can understand how impossible it is to have weapons in a built up, heavily populated area without being near civilians

The civilians run from the bombs,

Israel gave the coordinates of places that were supposed to be safe for the palestinean children to go....these were UN schools. The Israelis then bombed those schools with pin point precision

Understand that and you are on your way to understanding what is really going on

If you cannot understand that then you are clinging to a false perception of reality because you have invested too much of yourself in a perception of the israelis as being the biblical jews...which they aren't

In fact the palestineans are more genetically the original biblical jews who were converted to islam than the israelis are who are descended from khazars

so why doesn't Hamas ask them to leave Gaza City if they plan to fire weapons and draw fire from there?

First of all you need to understand that Hamas is the creation of Israel......research it and things will make more sense

Secondly the western media will say that Hamas is the aggressor by firing rockets because the western media is controlled by powerful zionist interests. if you have bothered to learn who owns and runs your federal reserve bank then you will know who those zionist interests are

But the reality is that Israel is the aggressor and Israel launched an atatck on gaza in which they have targeted children on the basis of a story about 3 israeli boys being kidnapped by Hamas. However Israel is now admitting that hamas did not kidnap the boys and they knew that before they even attacked gaza

Use your head and do your research. Stop listening to corporate zionist mouthpiece media....they are desperately lying to you because they're entire sick empire relies on you being fooled

With a population of over a half million, it seems they would at the very least have them move away from the area before they fired from it. Bet you won't see that happening, because civilian casualties are part of their war.....a very large part of it. They do not care for the Palestinians who live there, and it is obvious. Even Hezbollah built hospitals and helped civilians. No sense in trying to protect the audacity behind this mind game.

'Mind game'?

Ok well then it should be very easy to see who the manipulator is behind the mind game isn't it because we just need to look at who the loser is and then we know that they are the victim of the mind game and not the party instigating the mind game

The palestineans are the clear loser so that would then point to israel being the player behind the mind games....think about it

 

[just me]

I'd rather not think your way. I'll use my own mind, thank you.

Do you see the terrorists telling the Gazans to get out of harms' way?

 

[sprinkles]

I'd rather not think your way. I'll use my own mind, thank you.

Do you see the terrorists telling the Gazans to get out of harms' way?

Out of harms way - who is doing the harming? If Israel is so great then why do the citizens have to be worried and get out of the way?

Are you saying that Israel shoots back without looking? Or are you saying that Israel also doesn't care if it kills the Gazans?

Sure. If they did give some warning it'd make them look better. The fact that they'd have to though actually makes Israel look worse.

 

[muir]

I'd rather not think your way. I'll use my own mind, thank you.

Do you see the terrorists telling the Gazans to get out of harms' way?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...643588-17a5-11e4-85b6-c1451e622637_story.html

[h=1]U.N. says Israel violated international law, after shells hit school in Gaza[/h]
GAZA CITY — United Nations officials accused Israel of violating international law after artillery shells slammed into a school overflowing with evacuees Wednesday, an attack that Palestinian and U.N. officials said killed at least 20 people and wounded dozens as they slept.
It was one of the worst mass-casualty incidents of the three-week war. The building was the sixth U.N. school in the Gaza Strip to be rocked by explosions during the conflict.
Israeli officials said they were trying to determine who was responsible for the bloodshed. In past incidents, the Israeli military blamed errant rocket or mortar fire by Gaza militants for explosions at U.N. schools — or said the blasts were under investigation.
The U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), which operated the school-turned-shelter in the Jabalya refugee camp, said it had gathered evidence, analyzed bomb fragments and examined craters after the attack. Its initial assessment was that three Israeli artillery shells hit the school where 3,300 people had sought refuge.
“I condemn in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces,” said Pierre Krähenbühl, the UNRWA commissioner-general. “This is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgraced.”


U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said “all available evidence points to Israeli artillery as the cause” of the pre-dawn attack.
Ban said Israel had received the precise GPS coordinates of the school from the United Nations 17 times.