cvp12gh5
What a lovely way to burn...
- MBTI
- Intui
- Enneagram
- Thinking
I apologize for taking so long to respond to this. I didn't have the time to sit down and address it properly until now.
So let's start from the beginning:
Sorry usually I nod to your wisdom, but this is where I'm frankly a little taken aback by your view. Numbers are certainly not numbers. Suffering is not suffering equally across the board. When I break my arm, yes, I guess you could call that suffering, but is it really the same kind of suffering as having my other arm amputated by a buzz-saw?
I'm sorry to hear this. But I stand firmly behind my views on this matter.
That being said, this does not mean that I am closed to changing my opinion. But I have yet to be presented with any facts or evidence to support the allegations being made against the IDF or the Israeli govt. And propaganda, YouTube videos, biased articles, and videos made by people that are financially gaining from speaking against them do not fall into the ‘fact’ or ‘evidence’ category for me.
And it is no secret that the death toll number, when compared side by side, is lopsided. Palestinians are far more likely to be killed than Israelis. But this is what occurs when you use people as human shields.
And I do not see your broken/amputated arm analogy as being valid in this instance. A life is a life, all the same. And in that respect, yes, a number is just a number.
Just because Israelis are killed at a far lower rate than are Palestinians, that does not make Israeli deaths any less real or traumatic. This was my point. Everyone suffers.
Can you honestly tell me that if the situation was reversed--if it were Israeli citizens dying by the hundreds every day, living in a densely populated war-zone with nowhere to run, while the Palestinians were heavily armed to the teeth, backed by the media, UN and major governments around the world--- that you'd really say 'numbers are just numbers, there's suffering on both sides of the fence?
I can tell you honestly that if the situation were reversed then that would mean that Israel was run by terrorists, with their people backing their actions. In this scenario, I would not support Israel and I would stand firmly behind the Palestinians. Easy.
This is what the Palestinian people have chosen for themselves. They chose Hamas, a terrorist organization, to represent them and this is a key reason why Israel is backed by the media, UN and major governments around the world. Hamas is a threat to the Middle East. There are some that may back them (privately) by supplying them with weapons, and these are the people that want to see Israel fail. But we all know that won't happen. The Six Day War of 1967 is a good example of how that would end.
Look, I get it. Antisemitism is still alive and well in many parts of the world, and yes, it's hurtful and sickening to see it dredged up in this day and age, but the fact of the matter is that Jews are no longer an oppressed people. What I mean by oppression is that, as a group, they are no longer at a disadvantage economically, socially or religiously on the world stage; the paltry words of a few protesters in countries with minute influence are not going to threaten that position. As a people, Jews are too well represented in mediums that wield a great deal of power to ever allow that to happen and that's just a simple fact.
The existence of Israel and its friendship with the United States are exactly what made many of this possible. Today, Israel retains the arguably the largest and most advanced military in the world. It also possesses one of the strongest economies in the world, is one of the most educated countries in the world, and sits at an impressive number 16 on the world's most highly developed countries list, with a very comfortable standard of living and (get this) the highest life expectancy in the world.
Those are some pretty impressive achievements it's accomplished in the short 60 years its been around and despite all the 'suffering' it currently shares in equal measure with Palestine during their on-going conflict. Meanwhile, Palestine's borders have been indisputably shrinking and shrinking.
I don't think I ever used the word “antisemitism”. Yes, I quoted a site that accuses truth out.org of being "A cornucopia of anti-American, anti-Semitic, pro-Palestine sedition..." But this was to show that said organization and the person that wrote the ‘misconceptions" article is biased. I did not say that this was my stance. I was showing an opposing view to the information posted.
And I also do not think I used the word “oppressed”. I am pretty sure I corrected myself on that when I stated that Jewish people were usually not hated for their religion but more for what the word “Jewish” represented. People are 'critical' of Jews. And, yes, this criticism exists for all of the wonderful things you have listed in regards to our achievements.
What you write reminds me of an apocryphal story I once heard about a Jewish man who was stranded in a desert for 10 years. When he was finally rescued, he had started four political parties, six newspapers, and two synagogues.
So yes, we are resilient in the face of adversity, which unfortunately, only adds to the criticism against us. We have become who we are through sheer will and determination. If we really played the victim card every time someone was critical of us, then I don't think we would have made it to where we are today. But it would be ignorant to ignore the fact that such criticisms exist and are prevalent all over the world.
People like to see other people fail and they hardly ever like the guy they believe to be on top. It's a part of human nature. No, not everyone is like this. Only the ones that are resentful towards people that appear to be successful. It’s unjustified and wrong when people feel this way, but then again, it's not really the Jews that they dislike…it's more about them admiring our determination to succeed and disliking their lack of this quality in themselves.
And I see you mentioned the shrinking borders of Palestine. In 2000, Israel and the US put forth a proposal to create a Palestine state on more than 95% of the West Bank and Gaza. But this proposal was rejected by the Palestinians. They then began the terrorist attacks against the Israeli people.
“Palestinians used crowds of civilians armed with rocks and firebombs, with snipers backing them up, and often with children in the front, to attack Israeli border guards or other targets. But after a short time the crowds dropped out and the attack was limited to individuals and small groups of shooters or bombers. They attacked cars and buses on the roads in the West Bank and Gaza, Israeli kibbutzim in Gaza, soldiers on or off duty in Israel and in the Gaza and the West Bank, and civilian crowds in places like pizzerias and cafes wherever they could be found in Israel. It was not an attack on the Israeli military and most of the victims were civilians, frequently women, children, and old people.”
This is the REASON Israel has been continually tightening its borders; for security purposes. This is the REASON for the check points on roads that have been used to attack Israelis. This is the REASON Palestinians are closely monitored and prohibited from walking freely into Israel.
Now can I understand how Palestinians would be resentful towards this? Absolutely. But Israel is not going to let its people die from terror attacks just so that the Palestinian people won't be mad at them. They should have thought about that before deciding that suicide bombing would somehow help their cause.
The fact of the matter is, as a people and as a country, Israeli's come into this battle with a lot of privilege, power and support, and which is why when we compare the statistics, they are highly uncomfortable and why I suppose a lot of people on the strong pro-Israeli side of the fence get pretty twitchy when it's brought up. There is a REASON why the body count on the part of the Palestinians is so high. There is a REASON why Palestinians currently occupy a tiny strip at the edge of the country map. There is a REASON why Israeli developments continue to encroach on Palestinian territory.
Let's not forget that this privilege, power and support was earned. There is a REASON for it. Israel is not the bad guy. And I don't get twitchy or uncomfortable when I see statistics brought up. I am saddened that people are dying, regardless of what side they are on, but I understand that when people are at war, both sides will have casualties; who has more is insignificant to me.
There is also a REASON why people are questioning the mainstream media and challenging its biases, because as a country with privilege, the State of Israel enjoys a place in the world stage whereas Palestine does not. Most of the viewpoints we're seeing here are filtered by a certain bias that kind of power allows. Heck, Israel's president gives out bursaries to students who post pro-Israeli essays on Facebook and social media. And that's on top of having a number of some of the most powerful men in the world on speed dial...
People should question everything. It's healthy. And everything in this world is filtered by a bias, so that can go either way. There is copious amounts of anti-Israel information floating around in the media and online (a preference among many) so I think it is safe to say that there is a viewpoint for everyone to latch onto. It all depends on what you would prefer to believe.
And in regards to these bursaries given to students for pro-Israel essays, you are making a gross assumption that these students do not support the things they write. Also, Netanyahu has confirmed the launch of this program, so it is no secret.
Now, I don't ascribe to any kind of world-conspiracy and I do not think any of this is premeditated in any way whatsoever. I do, however, know that people are people and they are not infallible, no matter what kind of terrifying injustice has fallen upon them in the last seventy years. Criticizing a country's military policy and acknowledging their advantage over a disenfranchised people does not make one an enemy. It is just a voice, a perspective, to keep people in check. And yet, I feel too often that this is precisely the 'card' that people pull out when they feel defensive about being in the wrong or in a position of power that grants them an uncomfortable amount of responsibility in how the conflict plays out.
I'm happy to hear you don't think Jews are trying to take over the world, as one other forum member does.
And yes, no matter who we are, we are all capable of making mistakes. But I do not think there was a mistake here nor do I think Israel is using the Holocaust as a “get out of jail free” card, if that is the "injustice" you are speaking of. This past atrocity has nothing to do with the current situation.
And critical evaluation in regards to any democracy is an indispensable tool. The only problem is when the criticism comes from inaccurate information. I don't see these critics as ‘enemies’. I see them as being misinformed.
So this leads me to be confused as to what “card” you may be referring. I am guessing antisemitism? If so, let me be very clear that I never used this “card”, nor would any wise Israeli or Jew confuse criticism of Israel's military policy with antisemitism.
The fact of the matter is, no matter who started what, the end result is a very clear power imbalance and the threat to Palestinians as a nation is hundreds upon hundreds of times more severe than it is to the Jews.
The Palestinians have had opportunities for compromise. They will not. It is all or nothing for them. Regardless of this “imbalance” you speak of, Israel will not stand by while missiles are being fired at them. And the missiles that hamas is using are getting better and better and reaching further distances than ever before. Let them come to the table with compromise in mind. If not, then Israel will do what it needs to do.
So no, suffering is NOT equal because the privilege and the power to end that suffering is NOT equal. Blame at this point is what is completely irrelevant. What's relevant is who has the power and the means to stop this.
I think I covered this already (re:suffering is most definitely equal).
And Israel may have more power, but that does not necessarily mean that it holds the key in ending this. They have tried, but Hamas won't bend even to the slightest degree. The way I see it, Hamas has the power. They could end this tomorrow if they really wanted to.
Sadly, a lot of people seem to think that if Israeli's step up to the plate, it will be like them accepting responsibility for the whole conflict instead of looking at it as an exercise of their privilege and choosing to respond with compassion rather than righteousness.
Sadly, I think what you know about this conflict is inaccurate. And that's okay. I can't blame people for watching and reading biased videos and articles online and believing them. We all get to pick and choose what we want to believe.
Everyone has an opinion. Everyone is a critic.
Last edited by a moderator:
