I cannot respond to everything but will to a few points. Sorry, slow time in my life = wall of text, you don’t have to read it if you don’t want to. I actually am trying to be nice too.
Yes, it does. And when I see people get belittled based on their nationality, religious beliefs, hobbies, personality types, lifestyle, whether or not they choose to marry, their gender, their wealth levels, regional accents… you name it… right here on this forum, and sometimes even threatened, I fail to see how this is in some way helping anyone stand together. You can’t make people stand together by forcing them to be exactly how you think they should be, and I see too much of that sort of thing.
Like freedom to get married if they want to and if that is how it suits them to live their lives? How come you tell people they can’t do that if they want to?.
I've been insulted and threatened on this forum many times, it can be a bit of a bear pit at times but it is also a crucible of ideas out of which have come many interesting discussions. There are some pretty gritty discussions on this forum that are genuine attempts to get beneath the surface of things right to the core. I think that's a pretty INFJ thing to do. There are also many harmless and neutral discusions as well, so its upto the individual what they want to involve themselves in.
If you are finding a discussion on marriage not to your liking then why not give some of your own input in an attempt to balance viewpoints or perhaps avoid it altogether if it is causing you that much distress?
But you are trying to do something that i've noticed a lot of right wing posters do which is trying to shut down dialogue. What you seem to be doing, rather than engaging in debate and sharing viewpoints is trying to censor what is said on the forum and i see too much of that around here.
I believe in peoples right to get married sure.....i also believe in my right to express my opinion (gained from my experience) that contracts and debt are, as i see it, 2 of the strands of a web which tie people into the system and that marriage is a contract and should not be viewed as a loving relationship. A person can however be in a loving relaitionship AND married but they can also be married and not in a loving relationship. In short marriage is a contract and does not equal love.
My position on a lot of the things you've listed above are that they are often imposed on people and become 'tradition' and oftentimes people don't even question whether or not those things are actually empowering them or limiting them.
I've seen these things cause untold distress in people and you can discearn it in the posts people make even on this forum. What i'm arguing is that perhaps some of these things can be reviewed. How beneficial are they or are they in fact actually devisive?
This is the point where some right wing people might accuse me of doing the work of the global elite who want to see all traditions broken down in their march towards a global collectivist, consumer society.
I am aware of the risks in meddling with identity, but i think it can also be a road to growth. The road i'd like to see is one where people have more democratic involvement not less.
Also true. And I don’t believe most online pundits have more than a rudimentary level of understanding of most issues. They’ve watched a documentary and decided they know it all. From the sounds of it, most people around here are not experts on real estate, economics or government, many have not even heard of very open and non-conspirational government agencies such as the FHA, HUD, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, what they do, how they were founded, etc. etc. etc. and are only loosely familiar with the history and culture, to boot, except for the bigoted views some people sometimes chose to believe and promote.
But they talk as if they have 40-year careers behind them, have travelled the world, worked in every industry imaginable, and know everything. This bothers me a LOT. Drives me nuts. Especially since it usually involves blatant mistakes and harsh value judgements.
You seem to me to be attempting to censor again as if someone who has not fulfilled the criteria you list above should shut the fuck up and i guess just listen to you and the other right wing commentators tell us how the corporations are our best buddies?
You're attacking me instead of looking at the issues of the debate. if you just want to hate on me then PM me, but this thread is about the forces behind the recession, so why don't you just focus on that here?
There is no way you know this about the education system. So, the education system “engineers” ignorance. Are you intimately familiar with the US education system? There isn’t even ONE education system here, there are many, and there are different schools teaching different things. Religious schools, secular schools, “un” schools, homeschools, good and not-so-good (and absolutely crappy) public schools…you name it. You really mean there is one elite group controlling all of these? They’re doing a lousy job, then, and I doubt that’s even true. When’s the last time you’ve been in a public school or talked to a teacher? Know any homeschoolers or parents pushing for reforms and alternative education opportunities?
During the 1950's Congressional and Senate investigations into tax exempt foundations (often set up and used by the power elite) Director of Research Norman Dodd presented his findings to the Recce Committee.
He said that foundations such as the Ford and Carnegie foundations used their funding in the field of education for the purpose of :''directing education in the United States toward an international viewpoint and discrediting the traditions to which it had been (previously) dedicated''
Dodd found that foundation grants had been used to take education away from local community level, disgard tradition, promote collectivism and of changing curricula to deny ''the principles underlying the American way of life'' and of providing funding for experiments to ''determine the most effective means by which education could be pressed into service of a political nature''.
Dodd found that accessory agencies were also funded by the foundations. these included: The American Council of Learned Societies, the National Research Council, The Social Science Research Council, The American Council on Education, the National Education Association, the League for Industrial Democracy, the teachers unions, the Progressive Education Association, the American Historical Association and the JOhn Dewey Society.
The point i'm trying to make here is that large amounts of private wealth coming from the corporate/financial elite is having a huge shaping effect on education in the US.
Some of the ways it influences i agree with. The things that concern me are the lack of transparency (the modus operandi is behind the scenes manipulation) and that the elite envisage a society controlled by them.
I want a society controlled by all of us and for that reason i think its ok to question the way things are being done
I don’t think anyone believes the media is not biased one way or the other. I know the media is biased. But saying the media “engineers ignorance” really just means “Read my propaganda, not theirs.”
All media is biased. I’ve seen people promote websites – okay, actually it was a link you posted -- that featured a paranoid ranting man saying that the Iowa primaries were rigged and the only solution is to start shooting people. Literally. That’s what he said. That is not my idea of quality journalism. I do not consider CNN or MSNBC gospel, either, however. (And obviously Fox is biased) And yes, I’ve heard of News Corps, even on mainstream media.
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I'm not advocating anyone go out and shoot anyone so i'd rather you don't try and tar me with that brush if you don't mind?
I'm not saying read propoganda selectively, i have said a number of times on this forum that people should listen to all points of view and question everything, including what i write.
The media has a huge effect on shaping peoples perceptions and for that reason people should question it the whole time and seek other sources to verify its truth.
I think Prof. Chomksy is right when he says it is used by the power elite to 'manufacture consent'.
I think you’re asking if the “power elite” are acting out of kindness.
I have no idea, because I have never met them or asked them, and I don’t even know who they are. I’m not sure where the “Power Elite” actually start. You obviously believe they exist and that their motives are universally bad. But they (whoever they are) are human, no? And presumably if they are so powerful and so elite, then they are intelligent enough to want peace and prosperity, and not environmental and economic catastrophe? For their own good as well as others? .
I am not saying they are universally bad, stop trying to put words into my mouth the whole time
I also agree with certain aspects of globalisation and liberal values, i just believe it is my responsibility as a member of a democratic society to always question what power is doing and to act if i disagree with it. I believe there is a move by an elite to consolidate their power and i think this has been going on for generations. This is not just my view but held by many people around the world, whose viewpoints are readily available on the internet.
They are not all powerful and have to use covert means to achieve their aims (i'll post a clip of President Kennedy talking about them in my next post. i'll leave it to you to decide whether he is speaking of this covert group, like Eisenhower did or whether he is talking about communism as some people claim)
People always have a choice. Whether it is a choice to buy a house or to not go along with their government’s policies – leader’s actions are always enabled by their own people. .
I don't agree with this. I don't think that jews forced into ghettos and death camps by the nazis had much choice.
However i do agree that elites are enabled by our acquiescance which is why i am arguing that workers have power when they stand together; getting people to stand together is a difficult thing when they have been conditioned to stand by themself however!
To be motivated enough to stand together they need a clearly defined thing to stabnd against and the elite have remained largely hidden using politicians as front men and fall guys.
I know a few ordinary rich people and CEO types… and many of them lost their butts and their businesses in the economic crisis, so if they were conspiring, they managed to conspire themselves into a lower level of wealth quite nicely. And I know rich capitalistic types who are quite philanthropic and obviously capable of kindness. I do not know about the Power Elite.
This I know, and it is not thanks to any media that I know it: the US government has passed laws and currently funds agencies (and banks) which made credit and homeownership easy. That was certainly one of the contributing factors to the economic crisis. I also know some very kind-hearted people who genuinely thought easy mortgages were a fantastic idea..
I'm not talking about the rich, i'm talking about the super rich; its the super rich that have the real inside information. If you lost your butt then you aren't in the club
Perhaps consumerism is a problem and the media is powerful – I suppose that is unarguable. But, you have to choose to buy a TV, you have to choose to buy an iphone or a computer, you have to choose to buy cable or satellite service, you have to choose which channels and programs to watch, you have to choose to sit down on the sofa you also chose, and watch those programs, and you have to choose which store to shop at, and you have to choose which products to buy. And if you don’t like the results then it is much easier to blame the media than your own self...
Now your getting into the realm of human psychology and the corporations employ psychologists to help sell products to people that they don't need and to manipulate their emotions through PR and advertising.
There are like a million choices, controlled largely by individuals. When enough people don’t choose something, it goes away. You even get to choose your friends, and to choose which groups’ acceptance you care about – or don’t. You choose to speak out against bullying or not. It bothers me to no end when people try to blame others for their own actions.
People also are incredibly apt to believe what they WANT to hear – the “Miracle Diet Pill” school of thought. That is not engineered, it is human nature. It is unfortunate, however, and leads people to sometimes make unwise choices. If anything is controlling us, it is our own natures, I believe.
This is incredibly unfair to all the people who have ever been exloited or abused. Somethings we can't choose.
We can however strive to recognise the forces at work and try to work together to build a better world.
We can build a better world, a fairer and more equal world, I believe.