The 2nd Great Christian Argument

[TheLastMohican]

I might suggest the Swoon Hypothesis for the empty tomb argument.

From a medical standpoint, I think that is rubbish, if you are taking for granted that Jesus was in fact crucified. The Romans were more adept at crucifixion than to let a man who has merely fainted off the cross. Consider the customary breaking of legs to speed death, the piercing of the side to confirm (and, if not that, ensure) death, and the fact that Jesus, if he did recover from his faint, would have been very lucky to survive more than a few hours before dying of exhaustion, blood loss, or multiple organ failures. If you believe that he was indeed flogged, as was customary before a crucifixion, then I don't see how you can believe that he could recover enough to walk and talk, let alone roll aside the stone sealing his tomb and fight off the Roman guards outside. :noidea:

 

[Barachai]

Yeah, that argument is a little... flawed. There are better arguments. I could argue to defend my faith, but I'm really not awake enough to put together a decent argument... *yawns*

 

[Duty]

Your arguing with faith. Faith is a lie. It's what others tell you to believe until you build your own faith based on what others think. Faith is a dangerous thing because it makes people believe their own lies. How many people have been persecuted because of that faith? On both sides. We have many records other than the bible that contradict each other. And can be stretched to make truth. Christians are just closer to the Jews than they want to admit. And I would argue that Christians get their morality from the jews. If you look at their moral background it is very simmiliar to christians.
Arguing with church people is like arguing with a meth addict. Nobody believes what they say and they need their next fix. Spent my life arguing with people who hated me for my religion. People are the problem always have been.
It seems that man likes to control other men. The bible and religion in general gives them that control over us and we let them. I always thought I was here to make mistakes and learn. If they only have four reasons you were talking to wanna bees. Get a real bible thumper on your ass. You better pack lunch and a dinner it's gonna be a long night.

This reminds me of a fun thing I used to do on off topic forums that got into religion...

I'd first explain that knowledge = justified true belief. In otherwards to know something you have to believe it, it has to be true, and you have to have a good reason (proof, evidence, etc) to know it. Makes sense.

Then I'd explain that faith is unjustified belief. In otherwards you believe it, it may or may not be true, and you have no good reasons to believe it...or you believe it despite the evidence. So belief in God easily falls into the faith category.

After this, I'd go on and tell them that faith is exceptionally dangerous. If one can believe something without having any evidence, without any good reason to believe it, then one can believe ANYTHING. One can "have faith" in the message of Hitler and the superiority of Arayans. One can "have faith" in inquisitions being the best way to deal with "crime." Faith is therefore dangerous as it makes people feel righteous in believing disgusting things. Why are Israel and Palestine still at war? They have faith in the righteousness of blowing up the heathens...
It's ridiculous.

I was demotivated since Marc did such a pretty good job of making the counterarguments. Duty has really pounded in the final nail.

Oh no, I pounded in the final nail on Jesus! This isn't good...

 

[Satya]

From a medical standpoint, I think that is rubbish, if you are taking for granted that Jesus was in fact crucified. The Romans were more adept at crucifixion than to let a man who has merely fainted off the cross. Consider the customary breaking of legs to speed death, the piercing of the side to confirm (and, if not that, ensure) death, and the fact that Jesus, if he did recover from his faint, would have been very lucky to survive more than a few hours before dying of exhaustion, blood loss, or multiple organ failures. If you believe that he was indeed flogged, as was customary before a crucifixion, then I don't see how you can believe that he could recover enough to walk and talk, let alone roll aside the stone sealing his tomb and fight off the Roman guards outside. :noidea:

There are many variations of the theory. However, the basic argument is the same and it is not an ungrounded one. Assuming that Jesus was crucified, it may not have killed him. We only have the disciple's account of what happened at the crucifixion and thereafter. Just because they described a crucifixion doesn't mean they described Jesus's crucifixion.

Oh no, I pounded in the final nail on Jesus! This isn't good...

It's alright,. Here is 30 pieces of silver. That should make you feel a little better.

Muahahahaha!

 

[Barachai]

Hmm... well, he may have survived such a thing as a crucifixion, but he would be very near dead from loss of blood. Without food for days afterwards? He'd be very dead, much less be able to roll back a stone door. I've never found that theory to be reasonable.

 

[AWEllingsen]

WE CELEBRATE

The Son of Man is born. God’s wife
a virgin made Him holy life.
We celebrate the model made
and to the sinner vital aid.

The Father let present The Son.
But God did not insist upon
His love. And we, we let Him die
not to afford — the reason why.

The Son of Man not to afford.
Because of guilt we killed The Lord.
But Jesus stood up again.
The love of God is not in vain.

We celebrate the model made
and to the sinner vital aid.
He died so that we all could live.
Conversion gained The Lord forgive.

Christmas is to celebrate the birth of Gods Son. Jesus is The Son. Jesus is the Son of Man and so the meaning of life. He is the outcome of every action, he is the life after the death of any event. King David wrote (Psalm, 2:11-12): “Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.”

The bible bear witness of Jesus. But the bible is in this respect open only to the chosen ones.

 

[Satya]

Hmm... well, he may have survived such a thing as a crucifixion, but he would be very near dead from loss of blood. Without food for days afterwards? He'd be very dead, much less be able to roll back a stone door. I've never found that theory to be reasonable.

Like I said, you are making assumptions based on the depiction as told by the Bible. How do you know there really was even a tomb? If there was a tomb, how do you know there was a big rock?

The answer to both of those questions is because the Bible told you so.

WE CELEBRATE

The Son of Man is born. God’s wife
a virgin made Him holy life.
We celebrate the model made
and to the sinner vital aid.

The Father let present The Son.
But God did not insist upon
His love. And we, we let Him die
not to afford — the reason why.

The Son of Man not to afford.
Because of guilt we killed The Lord.
But Jesus stood up again.
The love of God is not in vain.

We celebrate the model made
and to the sinner vital aid.
He died so that we all could live.
Conversion gained The Lord forgive.

Christmas is to celebrate the birth of Gods Son. Jesus is The Son. Jesus is the Son of Man and so the meaning of life. He is the outcome of every action, he is the life after the death of any event. King David wrote (Psalm, 2:11-12): “Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.”

The bible bear witness of Jesus. But the bible is in this respect open only to the chosen ones.

You realize that Christmas was originally a pagan holiday that culminated into a giant sexual orgy, right? The early Christians simply chose this day to represent the birth of Jesus so they could better compete against the popular pagan religions of the day. It is actually more likely that Jesus was born in the Spring.

 

[TheLastMohican]

There are many variations of the theory. However, the basic argument is the same and it is not an ungrounded one. Assuming that Jesus was crucified, it may not have killed him. We only have the disciple's account of what happened at the crucifixion and thereafter. Just because they described a crucifixion doesn't mean they described Jesus's crucifixion.

True, we only have a few heavily biased accounts of Jesus's crucifixion. That's why knowledge of Roman history and practices comes in handy. We can tell from the details in the accounts that whoever wrote them knew what he was talking about, and we can also allow plenty of confidence in the Roman soldiers. I think they would have had to screw up in too many uncharacteristic ways for Jesus to end up entombed alive. It's just awfully improbable that it could happen, especially for such a high-profile case as Jesus's.
Of course, it seems something highly improbable had to happen no matter what hypothesis you choose, so maybe that's a moot point.

 

[Shai Gar]

You realize that Christmas was originally a pagan holiday that culminated into a giant sexual orgy, right? The early Christians simply chose this day to represent the birth of Jesus so they could better compete against the popular pagan religions of the day. It is actually more likely that Jesus was born in the Spring.

I thought he was born in autumn... Around March.

 

[TheLastMohican]

I thought he was born in autumn... Around March.

If you want to get technical, Jesus lived his whole life in the northern hemisphere.

 

[Shai Gar]

THAT'S A CONSPIRACY! Jesus was born in the Southern Hemisphere.

 

[AWEllingsen]

Why discuss the possibility of an open womb or the chance of walking on the water? It is not interesting. What is interesting is the fact the outcome of your sin; the result of it, the life of your actions, The Son, let himself die so that you could live. But He (it) stood up again.

 

[Shai Gar]

That's dependant on the divinity of the person, which is what we're arguing.

 

[Satya]

Why discuss the possibility of an open womb or the chance of walking on the water? It is not interesting. What is interesting is the fact the outcome of your sin; the result of it, the life of your actions, The Son, let himself die so that you could live. But He (it) stood up again.

You are welcome to start your own thread about whatever you want, but this thread is about arguments against Christianity. This is not a place to preach. If you can't make posts on topic, then I'll ask that they be removed.

 

[AWEllingsen]

You are welcome to start your own thread about whatever you want, but this thread is about arguments against Christianity. This is not a place to preach. If you can't make posts on topic, then I'll ask that they be removed.

I seem to be like salt to you ... :wave:

 

[Satya]

I seem to be like salt to you ... :wave:

:mpick:

 

[Duty]

Why discuss the possibility of an open womb or the chance of walking on the water? It is not interesting. What is interesting is the fact the outcome of your sin; the result of it, the life of your actions, The Son, let himself die so that you could live. But He (it) stood up again.

No offense, but this just sounds like nonsense to an objective mind. The importance and interest is in if Jesus actually existed, was who he claimed to be, God exists, and the like. I don't care if some narcissistic guy died in a poetic way and claimed he was doing it for my supposed soul (sounds like material for an anime more then anything lol). Anyone could set themselves up to die and claim it's to save souls. What is interesting is if that person is actually some divinity and has some authority over those souls.

It seems extraordinarily unlikely, especially in the light of none of us having tangible, reliable experience with things like miracles, souls and Gods. Repetition of science and personal experience is reliable and is in fact what our reality is based off of. Repetition of souls and Gods is unreliable...and the actual repetition is nonexistent...so it seems highly unlikely such things as Gods and souls exist. If they do exist, we can't know it in this lifetime as we have no physical senses or logical way of experiencing such things.

And if they do exist, they're irrelevant to this life we carry out. We have no way of experiencing such things. They're also completely unnecessary to explain how the world works (that's why we have laws of gravity, mathematics, etc...they explain the world and make much more reliable and useful predictions then religion). Religion is then irrelevant to our perception of the world, and is useless for making predictions/creating technologies that enhance our lives.

The only use religion has is in psychology...but if you understand that it can be used to enhance your mood, then you also understand that you're just trying to believe something you truly don't in order to feel better. You're not being honest with yourself. Buddhism (without a lot of the mystical stuff like reincarnation) is a notable exception as its GOAL is psychological conditioning...changing the way you perceive the things in your life. In that aspect you wouldn't be trying to believe something you honestly don't believe by practicing meditation and the like (and I highly recommend to anyone to take up meditation).

 

[AWEllingsen]

Duty,

The laws you refer to were created, and they were created by God to make life tolerable to us. And miracles happens every day. Man is not in control of the earth, but God has given man power to master the world. The problem, if one sees it that way, is the lack of humility which makes man believing he is in power by his knowledge. Man should be grateful God made the world so that the laws of it is to grasp.

Psychology, which you mention, is nonsense. I mean: That is really nonsense. The aim of psychology is to control man by knowledge and psychology excuses sin and all kinds of terrible behaviour.

Without fear of God man becomes shameless. And shamelessness is the root to any evilness. So belief in God is logical and sensible, and if you refuse to believe in God your motives are doomed to be questioned.

 

[Duty]

Duty,

The laws you refer to were created, and they were created by God to make life tolerable to us. And miracles happens every day. Man is not in control of the earth, but God has given man power to master the world. The problem, if one sees it that way, is the lack of humility which makes man believing he is in power by his knowledge. Man should be grateful God made the world so that the laws of it is to grasp.

Why is this explanation better then that the laws just naturally exist as part of our perceiving the world? Why is it a better explanation then the one philosophers since Hume (the first naturalistic explanation of the world) have been debating? Humility isn't the problem here...I know how small I am compared to the power and vastness of space, and even the tiny, insignificant planet I live on.

If anyone doesn't have humility, it's a people that think they're the sole benefactors of the divine will of the being the created everything. Humanity is an insignificant creation in the enormity of space. Our galaxy alone is like 300,000,000,000 solar systems, and the number of galaxies in the universe is in the billions upon billions as well. Thinking that God created us, and chose us to be his best creation in such an enormous space...it seems HIGHLY unlikely.

Psychology, which you mention, is nonsense. I mean: That is really nonsense. The aim of psychology is to control man by knowledge and psychology excuses sin and all kinds of terrible behaviour.

You're on a forum that is identified by it's psychological personality type and you're criticizing psychology as nonsense?

Psychology doesn't excuse poor behavior nor does it condone it. It only EXPLAINS it, and sometimes tries to treat it.

Without fear of God man becomes shameless. And shamelessness is the root to any evilness. So belief in God is logical and sensible, and if you refuse to believe in God your motives are doomed to be questioned.

Uh...this isn't true at all. There are plenty of secular reasons for ethics. We still have emotional concerns, rights for individuals, and the like. We don't hurt others because it's not right to (society as a whole, and therefore you, benefit from a rule of "don't hurt others" being in place, so it's natural for a social species like ours to come up with such a rule)...not because God commanded us not to do such a thing.

I don't at all believe in God or fear any sort of divine retribution for my disbelief, but I sure as hell feel shame when I do wrong. It's a psychological and probably physiological response to going against your beliefs.

 

[alcyone]

Duty,

The laws you refer to were created, and they were created by God to make life tolerable to us. And miracles happens every day. Man is not in control of the earth, but God has given man power to master the world. The problem, if one sees it that way, is the lack of humility which makes man believing he is in power by his knowledge. Man should be grateful God made the world so that the laws of it is to grasp.

Psychology, which you mention, is nonsense. I mean: That is really nonsense. The aim of psychology is to control man by knowledge and psychology excuses sin and all kinds of terrible behaviour.

Without fear of God man becomes shameless. And shamelessness is the root to any evilness. So belief in God is logical and sensible, and if you refuse to believe in God your motives are doomed to be questioned.

Psychology by definition is the study of the mind and mental processes, especially in regard to behavior. Last I checked it was the province of lawyers to excuse sin and all kinds of terrible behavior. Just as it has been the MEN of your God who excused the sins of their peers in regards to sexual misconduct with young children.

As for it being nonsense, apparently you have never suffered from any sort of psychological illness. As someone who has in fact experienced depression in a myraid of forms (the common variety in various degrees and post partum), I deplore your assertion that somehow or another, there was actually nothing wrong with me. By working to increase my own selfawareness of mood, increasing exercise, better nutrition and most importantly utilizing techniques from a therapist years ago, I got control of my moodiness and my life.

Is it logical to live your life in fear? Any kind of fear? Is that sensible? It doesn't seem so to me. Having to second guess every decision for fear of divine retribution. Shamelessness is not the root of evilness. Ignorance is. Ignorance leads to fear. “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” --Yoda

As for that last little sally, not believing in God leads my motives to be questioned...I am NOT a Christian. I DO not believe in your God. How do you, without any knowledge of ME, get to make the assertion that I am suspect based solely on my religious preferences?


Since you seem to be quite a Christian devout and lots of the most notorious serial killers were also (religiously devout that is) , I guess that I can reasonably consider you a serial killer. Of course I know nothing about you save that you are one of the narrow minded religiously inclined sort of people. The kind who fall back on their 'faith' as the reason that their arguements are infalliable. The kind who spew the teachings force fed into them from their pulpits since they were toddlers, then expect the rest of us to swallow it as truth. Sorry, you want to convert people, you have to give them something a bit less shallow.

Do miracles happen everyday? They sure as hell do. But you are probably missing them because you are only looking for the 'divinely' inspired ones. I'll keep watching the flowers unfurl after the desert rainstorms. I'll thrill at the sight of a pack of coyotes playing canine games for not reason other than their whims. I'll wonder at the ways the clouds blanket the mountain ranges. I'll marvel at the little things because in those things are the real miracles. The big miracles are cool too. But they come few and far between. And generally only directly effect a small number of people.

Knowledge is Power. It is only those who believe there is nothing more they need to know who are ignorant.

Since I am a little pissy with this whole tangent right now(can ya tell?), I'm going to stop writing before I get banned from the site....