The 2nd Great Christian Argument
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Duty
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Duty
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I'm just happy not being the guy who pwns the proselytizing Christian for a change.
Although I'm really really trying to not be hateful, I will admit that Alcyone and I are doing great at this. Alcy from expressing the feelings we nontheists tend to have with Christianity well, and I explaining the illogic behind Christianity. Teamwork ftw lol.
I do want to say I expressly have no hate or bad feelings to any Christian personally. I get annoyed at religion as a whole, but the individuals in it are just people and prone to fault like anyone else.
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You guys are doing great. Considering you replied to him in a mature and intellectual manner, it demonstrates that you have respect for him even though you disagree with his perceptions. By contrast, his response was not to respond to your arguments with logical and coherent arguments of his own, but instead to continue to shamelessly proselytize. To me, that demonstrated a great deal of arrogance, as he showed no interest in discussion, but simply dismissed other beliefs as inferior to his own in an obvious attempt to gratify himself. Which is exactly why I believe that people who take the Bible literally are the best evidence against the Bible.
AWEllingsen
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Your choice
If that really is your aim I will leave you to it. By your premises for the discussion you try to show how stupid Christians are believing in fairy tales. But if you yourself consider believing dependent upon proofs of the resurrection of Jesus I suggest you are the foolish one. Christians don't. They believe The Son stood up again. I have in this thread explained what Christians believe in and what motivates us, namely fear and love of The Lord. And most of you are called to believe in The Son. So please step forward.
If that really is your aim I will leave you to it. By your premises for the discussion you try to show how stupid Christians are believing in fairy tales. But if you yourself consider believing dependent upon proofs of the resurrection of Jesus I suggest you are the foolish one. Christians don't. They believe The Son stood up again. I have in this thread explained what Christians believe in and what motivates us, namely fear and love of The Lord. And most of you are called to believe in The Son. So please step forward.
Duty
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If that really is your aim I will leave you to it. By your premises for the discussion you try to show how stupid Christians are believing in fairy tales. But if you yourself consider believing dependent upon proofs of the resurrection of Jesus I suggest you are the foolish one. Christians don't. They believe The Son stood up again. I have in this thread explained what Christians believe in and what motivates us, namely fear and love of The Lord. And most of you are called to believe in The Son. So please step forward.
We know what you believe in, society hammers it in our heads every day (especially around holidays).
We know what motivates you.
We also know you have no justification for believing what you believe. Faith is dangerous. It enables a person to feel righteous in hurting "infidels" and other such things. I have a good reason...a justification for not hurting others...because (even as an INTP) I feel compassion for others, and because society as a whole benefits from not hurting each other.
Not having a good reason for believing what you believe leads to ignorance, bigotry, and the like. No one has a good reason for hating black people, or wanting to exterminate Jews. There's no good reason for any of that. However, faith enables one to think God says you can do these things because they're the corrupt form of humanity or something. Why do you think Israel/Palestine have so many problems? Because you have two groups who feel righteous...but they have no good reason for their racism and intolerance.
I can't believe that a benevolent God would send me to hell for not believing in him. I made an honest inquiry into the limits of my knowledge, and found belief in a supernatural deity to be beyond those limits. It was honest, heartfelt, and intelligent. If anything I'd think God would punish blind obedience as it's dishonest to the intellect he created.
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That was the topic of the thread.
If you actually bothered to read the OP or any of the rest of the beginning of this thread, then you would have seen that I was making the traditional arguments many Christians use to justify their beliefs. As Duty said, there is no good justification to believe what you believe and you have had ample opportunity to prove otherwise. In essence, your choice to believe all that hooplah is a form of emotional masturbation in which you obtain a self-gratifying pleasure in deluding yourself into believing you know all the answers just because you blindly follow a 2,000 year old book which anyone with any degree of reason could deduce is imperfect and far from divinely inspired. You just come off looking like a little child who naively believes in Santa Claus just because his Mommy and Daddy told him so.
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alcyone
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I'm just happy not being the guy who pwns the proselytizing Christian for a change.
I have to say that I am not trying to pwn this member, and make them feel unwelcome or try to diminish their faith in any way shape or form. But the fastest way to piss me off in a religious debate is to start making judgements based on anothers faith and religious views. Especially when that judgement is made out of ignorance.
I should be judged on my actions in this life. Not by what God (and/or Goddess) I serve.
I should be judged on how I have lived my life. I should be judged based on what I have done, and what I haven't done. Have I learned from my poor judgement calls? Have I applied the wisdom I've gathered and the advice I asked of my elders? Did I think before I acted?
Is this to say I am not guilty of judging based on religion? Hell NO! I struggle with my own judgement issues. Watching those jets crash into the World Trade center changed something in me. Watching and hearing Arab and Muslim Americans celebrating the attack changed me. Learning about the abuses piled onto the masses in the name of Islam changed me. I was in the military during 9/11 and for the start of the Iraq War. I was a spouse whose husband was being shot at by people...In the name of Islam. That changed something in me.
But, I try to reconcile. I try to understand. While something within me withdraws when I learn that an acquaintance is a Muslim, I try harder to forge a personal relationship with them. In order that they may be the 'face' of Islam for me.
People on here have become 'faces' of their religious faith. They bring a new level of understanding, appreciation, and tolerance. Which is an attitude that I think should be adopted by all in regard to religion and faith.
Know the person. Understand the motivation. Acknowledge and Respect the Differences. Accept that we do not all have to be the same in order to coexist. Your 'Right' (as in correctness) is not Universal, and until it is proven so you must also allow others their personal 'Right'.
alcyone
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Okay, this occurred to me as I was falling asleep.
Why is 'FEAR' usually the first thing people use when describing the way they regard their God? Fear then Love. How are those two things even compatible?
Why is that considered a healthy aspect in a divine relationship, but in a human relationship is considered unhealthy?
Why is 'FEAR' usually the first thing people use when describing the way they regard their God? Fear then Love. How are those two things even compatible?
Why is that considered a healthy aspect in a divine relationship, but in a human relationship is considered unhealthy?
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It's actually comes down to a political relationship. Conservative minded people believe that authority should be like a father figure; conditional love that is aimed at disciplining those who misbehave i.e. to be feared. Whereas liberal minded people believe that authority should be like a mother figure; unconditional love that is aimed at nurturing those who misbehave i.e. to be loved.
In essence, I suppose the Christian religion believes that the whole world is a single parent home, in which God must play both roles.
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S
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But I don't fear my loving father...
Why should I fear a loving god?
Why should I fear a loving god?
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I think that's Satya's point...you shouldn't. You're more liberal minded by his definitions.
S
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I think there's a god and that the god isn't motherly or fatherly. I think we're an experiment in creating an equal and that this entity views us objectively without any compassion or dislike, and screws with us with equal objectivity to attain test results.
I also think that there's an expectation there [from god, about us] that none of these servile religious types are matching up to.
I believe there's a god, doesn't mean I'll worship. I'm in this life for me until god pays me otherwise.
(Shai Gars starting bid for servility is £250,000 lump sum deposit at the start of the year, and £5,000 a week after that)
I also think that there's an expectation there [from god, about us] that none of these servile religious types are matching up to.
I believe there's a god, doesn't mean I'll worship. I'm in this life for me until god pays me otherwise.
(Shai Gars starting bid for servility is £250,000 lump sum deposit at the start of the year, and £5,000 a week after that)
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MyPetZombie
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I would like to bring up 2 things that have been touched upon here. The first is Faith. By my definition, faith is simply, belief in the unprovable. Science is full of unprovable theorums that nevertheless are held to be true. E=mc2, for instance. Metaphysics is rampant with them; the slit theory, Schroedinger's cat. We accept these theorums to be true because there is enough evidence to support the fact that, if they COULD be proven, the hypothesis would be the end result. To me, Faith in the divine is no different. However, I think it's very important to differentiate between organised religion (in this case, Christianity, ie, Protestantism and Catholicism) and the Divine. One thing that hasn't been touched on in this discussion, probably because it is an argument against one religious sect, is that it's RELIGION that can be considered dangerous, NOT Faith.
To me, religion is man made. Centuries after the fact people come along and bend the word of God, or the word of Christ, to their own beliefs. This is clearly the case when you consider how many off-shoots of Protestantism embrace the Book of Paul, who admittedly never even met Jesus and was never one of his disciples. Religion is there for people who will not think for themselves. Spirituality, on the other hand, to me is God-made; in other words, it is the private conversation between a person and the god of their understanding, regardless of WHAT that god represents. Every church was created by one person or people, based on THEIR interpretation of the Bible. Faith, to me, is more in keeping with spirituality, which is created by YOUR interpretation of the word of god, where ever you may find it. Even if the morals and ethics are the same, how you come to your own conclusions is far more important, in my mind.
As for Fear, this is entirely subjective, however this is pretty much the fundamental flaw of all organized religion. Way back in the day we were barely evolved; as a species if we couldn't fuck it or eat it, we had to kill it. It was something to be feared. That which couldn't be killed, such as the sun or the seasons, was deified, and often people were sacrificed in its place. Even in Christianity, this is evidenced through Christ's suffering and death in our place. Christ was the King of the Bean, in other words. Perhaps the fear comes from that which is unknown, however, a fear-based life, even with a god present, really is counter-productive. Yes, we'll behave more when we're scared, however why give us the freedom of choice? Furthermore, if God is good (as he must be, since the devil in Christian dogma is clearly the bad one), why would he utilize a state or emotion that creates so much negativity? Pretty much every crime ever committed has a grain of fear in the motive somewhere.
I don't buy it. Faith, providing it's mine and I'm not merely parroting someone else's ideology is fine, but I have to toss fear out. If God is good and God is love, fear has no place in God's paradigm. If one trusts God, it makes no sense to fear him as well.
I'm not sure how much sense I'm making to the INTP's. If I'm not, my apologies. I caution throwing the baby out with the bathwater, though. Religion is separate from faith, to my understanding.
To me, religion is man made. Centuries after the fact people come along and bend the word of God, or the word of Christ, to their own beliefs. This is clearly the case when you consider how many off-shoots of Protestantism embrace the Book of Paul, who admittedly never even met Jesus and was never one of his disciples. Religion is there for people who will not think for themselves. Spirituality, on the other hand, to me is God-made; in other words, it is the private conversation between a person and the god of their understanding, regardless of WHAT that god represents. Every church was created by one person or people, based on THEIR interpretation of the Bible. Faith, to me, is more in keeping with spirituality, which is created by YOUR interpretation of the word of god, where ever you may find it. Even if the morals and ethics are the same, how you come to your own conclusions is far more important, in my mind.
As for Fear, this is entirely subjective, however this is pretty much the fundamental flaw of all organized religion. Way back in the day we were barely evolved; as a species if we couldn't fuck it or eat it, we had to kill it. It was something to be feared. That which couldn't be killed, such as the sun or the seasons, was deified, and often people were sacrificed in its place. Even in Christianity, this is evidenced through Christ's suffering and death in our place. Christ was the King of the Bean, in other words. Perhaps the fear comes from that which is unknown, however, a fear-based life, even with a god present, really is counter-productive. Yes, we'll behave more when we're scared, however why give us the freedom of choice? Furthermore, if God is good (as he must be, since the devil in Christian dogma is clearly the bad one), why would he utilize a state or emotion that creates so much negativity? Pretty much every crime ever committed has a grain of fear in the motive somewhere.
I don't buy it. Faith, providing it's mine and I'm not merely parroting someone else's ideology is fine, but I have to toss fear out. If God is good and God is love, fear has no place in God's paradigm. If one trusts God, it makes no sense to fear him as well.
I'm not sure how much sense I'm making to the INTP's. If I'm not, my apologies. I caution throwing the baby out with the bathwater, though. Religion is separate from faith, to my understanding.
AWEllingsen
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Do you really believe God allows whatever so that there is nothing to fear? I don't. And if you don't: Do you think God loves you because of your righteousness so that you have no reason to fear? No one is without sin. Do you not fear The Son will not justify you when it comes to the resurrection? Do you not fear being left out? Do you not fear the anger of God when thinking of the judgement, if not for any other sake than for the sake of others? Do you not fear people do not live up to the expectations of God? I do. I fear God. Therefore I watch my steps and keep my track clean. And pray for others.
alcyone
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Religion is not separate from faith. You must have faith to have religion.
The Meriam Webster definition of 'faith' is:
1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions
2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust
3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>
However, you were on the right track. Spirituality is independent of religion. You can be spiritual without being religious. As religion implies an established institution.
As to what you are saying about fear. There are many, many kinds of fear. Pre-civilization humans did not have a 'eat it, fuck it or ill it' mentality. They had an instinct to survive. They fought to eliminate the predators that could prey on them, both animal predators as well as fellow human predators. That kind of fear is survival motivated and it also originates in the adrenal system more commonly known as the 'fight or flight' response.
That is much different than the fear an abused woman feels when her husband comes home drunk. That is the kind of fear that religion seems to foster. That is the kind of fear Tyrants seek to impose on their subjects.
The Meriam Webster definition of 'faith' is:
1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions
2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust
3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>
However, you were on the right track. Spirituality is independent of religion. You can be spiritual without being religious. As religion implies an established institution.
As to what you are saying about fear. There are many, many kinds of fear. Pre-civilization humans did not have a 'eat it, fuck it or ill it' mentality. They had an instinct to survive. They fought to eliminate the predators that could prey on them, both animal predators as well as fellow human predators. That kind of fear is survival motivated and it also originates in the adrenal system more commonly known as the 'fight or flight' response.
That is much different than the fear an abused woman feels when her husband comes home drunk. That is the kind of fear that religion seems to foster. That is the kind of fear Tyrants seek to impose on their subjects.
MyPetZombie
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Do you really believe God allows whatever so that there is nothing to fear? I don't. And if you don't: Do you think God loves you because of your righteousness so that you have no reason to fear? No one is without sin. Do you not fear The Son will not justify you when it comes to the resurrection? Do you not fear being left out? Do you not fear the anger of God when thinking of the judgement, if not for any other sake than for the sake of others? Do you not fear people do not live up to the expectations of God? I do. I fear God. Therefore I watch my steps and keep my track clean. And pray for others.
God DOES allow whatever, because whatever happens. I believe that God loves me because I AM, just as he loves everyone else because THEY ARE. No one is without sin, so to have a god with unreasonable expectations is rather...I dunno...unhealthy? Doncha think? I don't fear god when thinking of the judgement, because I live my life judging myself as I go. I'm my own worst critic, and if I can forgive myself, I'm sure god, in his infinite wisdom and mercy, will too. If Christ died for me, then why wouldn't he justify me? I don't need to fear god to respect him, or myself. I live my life out of a sense of my own moral conduct, not out of fear of recrimination. If I was continuously terrified that god would punnish me, I would never learn, never grow, as my mistakes are what teach me the most.
I do not believe there are a few holier-than-thous (literally) standing on one side of the pearly gates, while the rest of us poor slobs are clamoring to get in. If that's the case, you can have your heaven. My idea of eternal life isn't kissing god's ass; the god of my understanding accepts my humanity because that's how I was created. He has no need of my adulation, just my love and respect.
MyPetZombie
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Right, but you miss my point. Faith in RELIGION is man made. Faith in SPIRITUALITY, to me, is god made.
I don't think I clarified that point well enough. Does it make better sense now?