The coming American civil war.

In the words of Thomas Jefferson: "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
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I don't really want to be dragged into the gun control debate largely because the "whole right to bear arms" thing means nothing to me and has been so distorted from what the founders of the USA actually meant.

It seems also that Jefferson never actually said this or wrote this. It's one of those quotes that developed a life of its own on line. https://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/when-government-fears-people-there-libertyquotation
 
Sriracha said:
I'm not understanding if this is hypothetical or someone actually thinks this will happen. Either way, my opinion is that it won't happen. We will always AND should always revert back to our constitution. Those who do not accept this way of life can find the exit. Our founding fathers broke free from chains in order for those who have the drive to excel their circumstances. The evolution of our community has gone in the right direction to give everyone the opportunity for equal life, liberty and pursuit of happiness (medically, educationally, marriage, etc.) It certainly doesn't mean people can sit on their lazy asses and expect to have things given to them. There has to be a way to better filter who is actually destitute in their situation vs. people who want to take advantage. Someone like me does not mind having the One Percenters. Why? They do share their money. They share their money by way of purchasing power, premiums they pay in insurance, donating to nonprofits ... so many ways other than taxes. These people simply HAVE to exist. I also don't believe in minimum wage increasing to $15/hr ... this doesn't give people incentive to better themselves by furthering their education. Bettering and educating oneself equals bettering a community as a whole. Socialism is a form of slavery.

Anyway, my ADD is trailing off, and I don't even remember what I am supposed to be talking about. lol
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I don't know what will happen, but my sense is there will be something big and not good (meaning most people won't be happy and it won't be clear who "won"). A civil war? I am not sure. But the division between the haves and have-not is reaching epic proportions, meaning the American dream is dead. I take this big ol' loaded term ("The American Dream") to mean that if you work hard, pay your debts, etc etc, you will be afforded the chance at a good life. Like one where you live in something like a house with running water that you can dream of owning shortly before you enter the nursing home, that you can have a few kids and be confident of your ability to provide for them, that your hard work will pay off to the extent that you are (edit) not one vehicle repair or medical bill away from being unable to pay your mortgage and losing your little piece of the American Dream. Well it's happening. Everyone is losing their shirt, and the little guys (like me and Mr. PB and probably most people posting on this board) are upset, where they choose to direct their distress, well everyone is different. But to some degree, we all feel bad. As I've said in other posts, we're living in an oligarchy now, and soon enough the smoke and mirrors issues (who is allowed in what bathrooms, whether the planet will heat up 2 degrees in 50 years) will seem farcical in the face of the abject nakedness we as a society will be facing. The politicians in general are telling us to lube up and pay more to fund more wars and more food stamps. I don't think this situation ever ended well. The solution in 1945 was to enter in a a world war (albeit "the good war)," so there is historical precedent for big snap back in big times of economic distress. Will it be civil war? I don't know. But it won't be pretty.
EDIT: Excuse typos, crazy night here.
 
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PintoBean said:
I don't know what will happen, but my sense is there will be something big and not good (meaning most people won't be happy and it won't be clear who "won"). A civil war? I am not sure. But the division between the haves and have-not is reaching epic proportions, meaning the American dream is dead. I take this big ol' loaded term ("The American Dream") to mean that if you work hard, pay your debts, etc etc, you will be afforded the chance at a good life. Like one where you live in something like a house with running water that you can dream of owning shortly before you enter the nursing home, that you can have a few kids and be confident of your ability to provide for them, that your hard work will pay off to the extent that you are one vehicle repair or medical bill away from being unable to pay your mortgage and losing your little peace of the American Dream. Well it's happening. Everyone is losing their shirt, and the little guys (like me and Mr. PB and probably most people posting on this board) are upset, where they choose to direct their distress, well everyone is different. But to some degree, we all feel bad. As I've said in other posts, we're living in an oligarchy now, and soon enough the smoke and mirrors issues (who is allowed in what bathrooms, whether the planet will heat up 2 degrees in 50 years) will seem farcical in the face of the abject nakedness we as a society will be facing. The politicians in general are telling us to lube up and pay more to fund more wars and more food stamps. I don't think this situation ever ended well. The solution in 1945 was to enter in a a world war (albeit "the good war)," so there is historical precedent for big snap back in big times of economic distress. Will it be civil war? I don't know. But it won't be pretty.
EDIT: Excuse typos, crazy night here.
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I have this feeling things are going to get a little crazy this summer. We'll see what happens. Between the two conventions, the olympics, the Donald vs Hillary debates, potential for more info leaks and scandals, the economy stagnating or worse, natural disasters, more Middle East turmoil, etc., it could be the perfect storm for unrest and violence. If Trump is denied the nomination, there will be hell to pay. Plus Bernie's supporters will not be happy about supporting Hillary either. I find the similarities between this thread and the new Captain America: Civil War movie (which I have not seen) to be striking. It is almost as if the movie trailer is preparing us for an inevitable clash, like Captain America vs Iron Man. There are many interesting parallels. Obviously I could be wrong, but I am concerned this summer and fall could be very chaotic in the US. Glad I don't live near the White House. Anyone else sense something scary happening before the election? I am being serious.
 
PintoBean said:
...soon enough the smoke and mirrors issues (who is allowed in what bathrooms, whether the planet will heat up 2 degrees in 50 years) will seem farcical in the face of the abject nakedness we as a society will be facing.
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this.
 
Sinny said:
The left wing extremist comment was satire.
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This tread is becoming very dark. How do you you see things shaking out this fall in the States from your vantage point in the UK? Could this be an opportunity for American Revolution, where we the people take back our country and government? Or are we just headed towards fascism and Marshall Law?
 
dang said:
This tread is becoming very dark. How do you you see things shaking out this fall in the States from your vantage point in the UK? Could this be an opportunity for American Revolution, where we the people take back our country and government? Or are we just headed towards fascism and Marshall Law?
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Meh, Trumps the running joke.. The 'new radical' sent to distract the populace and Hillary is the hand picked heir to the criminal thrown. Our politicians are more than willing to do business with Hillary. I suspect that the American Establishment won't fall before the British, and even though her crime's are evident, no movement will be strong enough to over come the criminal establishment without foreign intervention.

The Brits are just as corrupt but a lot better at keeping it under wraps. We still have some form of direct democracy over here (which actually doesn't exist legally, but they like to pretend it does, so for all intents and purposes it does), and our establishment is small enough that we the people can make waves. Alas, I think the FED in America is just too big to take down, as is.

The USA are already a fascist/communist hybrid. See the thing is, 'Marshall Law' isn't going to just be declared over night. They do these things gradually, they erode our freedom's over time so that we barely notice them gone. It's generational subversion. The sooner people clock onto these tactics the better. Each and every law passed should bear public scrutiny. But the trend is much the opposite. Just look at TTIP. The future looks bleak... and most people don't even care, or aren't interested, or are 'bored' by it.

People piss me off. People are throwing the world and civilisation as we know it down the drain because they are too lazy to read, challenge and shape legislation.

But yea, I think you will find that the USA is fast becoming a military state. Only your military is stationed over sea's and a domestic military force is being built in it's stead. I suspect that more 'natural' disasters will be used to destroy parts of the united states and implement Marshall law in these states. The government emergency powers literally laugh in the face of the constitution. The FED will own everything including the rain, the land and you... Like not that already don't.

But in the event of WW3.. at least some of you guys have a chance of survival, here in the UK, we'd mostly be wiped off the map.
 
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dang said:
This tread is becoming very dark. How do you you see things shaking out this fall in the States from your vantage point in the UK? Could this be an opportunity for American Revolution, where we the people take back our country and government? Or are we just headed towards fascism and Marshall Law?
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It stands to reason that as the population increases so will the strife. Alienate the law keeping aspects and watch the spark ignite the tinder. This means those that keep the law and those that abide by it
 
Jefferson? Sounds more like Samuel L. Jackson to me.

Yes the thread is dark For myself I sincerely doubt things will change all that much or all that easily. The election of Hillary or Trump is unlikely to change the status quo all that much really. Hillary inherently conservative and won't really attempt to change anything if she gets power. She is not a trans formative leader, she is not a visionary, She is a caretaker and a manager, short on ideas and projects. Her Presidency will likely be Obama-lite. Trump is a fool who really has no idea what he is doing or how government or international relations actually work. If he does get into power he will attempt to do few things he has proposed, likely fail, and then retreat into into perpetual campaign mode, slandering and slagging his opponents, lurching from one outrageous gaff to the next, blaming Congress or the establishment for his failures, The "Trump Revolution" will amount to nothing because it was smoke and mirrors anyway and his supporter are bound to disappointed.

And the beat will go on...
 
It is interesting that the vastly small minority has made such strides in the last couple of years. Strides that do not benefit the majority. This is due in large part (in my opinion?) to the Internet giving them the ability of seeming like a much larger entity than they really are.
 
brightmoon said:
Jefferson? Sounds more like Samuel L. Jackson to me.

Yes the thread is dark For myself I sincerely doubt things will change all that much or all that easily. The election of Hillary or Trump is unlikely to change the status quo all that much really...
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You are right that neither candidate will change the outcome much. This is a situation so dire that no human is capable of being a night in shining armor (though the NYTimes fashion pages did make an absurd comment about Hillary's [imo ugly) white jacket as emblematic of her as "New York's white night" http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/16/fashion/fashion-hillary-clinton.html?_r=0). The pending economic catastrophe has long been in the making, and it is something we will have to go through, regardless of who is sitting in the White House. It will be okay for those with secure jobs (healthcare and defense mainly), and who have a bit liquidity and own their homes. In fact, it will be kind of nice. A lot of shit will go on sale as we spiral into deflation big time. So those people with a bit of money and a secure jobs will feel okay. But most people will not feel okay, and there will probably be some kind of large scale social movement which will be pretty ugly. Some people predict the likes of the French Revolution. I have no idea. I just know it won't be fun or pretty.
 
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Eventhorizon said:
It is interesting that the vastly small minority has made such strides in the last couple of years. Strides that do not benefit the majority. This is due in large part (in my opinion?) to the Internet giving them the ability of seeming like a much larger entity than they really are.
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If you had to choose one moment in history in which you could be born, and you didn’t know ahead of time who you were going to be -- what nationality, what gender, what race, whether you’d be rich or poor, gay or straight, what faith you'd be born into -- you wouldn’t choose 100 years ago. You wouldn’t choose the fifties, or the sixties, or the seventies. You’d choose right now.

​
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Barack Obama 5/6/16
 
brightmoon said:
I don't really want to be dragged into the gun control debate largely because the "whole right to bear arms" thing means nothing to me and has been so distorted from what the founders of the USA actually meant.

It seems also that Jefferson never actually said this or wrote this. It's one of those quotes that developed a life of its own on line. https://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/when-government-fears-people-there-libertyquotation
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Good, thank you for the correction. I still believe the words within the quote, no matter who said them.
 
I think that sometimes we put too much emphasis on the leader in this case the President) and assume that all change can happen from the top and just flow down. We also assume that past decisions can just be undone as soon as someone new occupies the chair. But past decisions aren't undone that easily and radical changes in direction are hard to do with the system the way that it is. More power is held by the bureaucracy than we generally assume. The bosses (the elected officials) come and go, but those people don't change.

Actuals revolutions are relatively rare, happen once every few generations for good reasons.
 
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