The death of God

[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION]

I know that you are a Christian, but are using God in a very general sense, such as believing in some creator, or do you mean specifically believing in the Christian God?
 
Jimmers said:
[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION]

I know that you are a Christian, but are using God in a very general sense, such as believing in some creator, or do you mean specifically believing in the Christian God?
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Mostly the classic Monotheistic God, like in Judaism, Islam or Christianity.
 
LucyJr said:
I know that atheists today are not ignorant toward other beliefs, but they are ignorant toward their beliefs, which is atheism.

My point was that the only atheist that can logically be valid is nihilistic atheism. That's why I said Nietzche understood the implications of a world whithou God.
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I am trying to get a clearer understanding of what you mean by this. How are atheists ignorant toward their own beliefs? Would you be able to provide any examples?
 
LucyJr said:
Nietzche was in a abys, a nihilistic depression, where everything was black and whithout any meaning. He celebrated in despair the absurd, the blindness, the disorder, the illusion of beauty and values, moral values, the absence of meaning in everything, the absence of a ultimate purpose to all the existence, the vanity and absurdity of all. Its a wonder he kept his sanity for such a long time.

Than he come up with the idea that all what is left in the absence of ideals, values, menaing, morals its the will to power, the fulfiling feeling and state of having as much power as you can. Nietzche theory was not just something merely intelectual, merely a philosophical answer. For him it was everything very real. He wanted to find something to forget about the pain, something to live for. He found the power of will. But I think he knew the truth about this one too.
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I cant say I have tread any new ground but I can say I know of the abyss very well. I have crawled out of it but sometimes feel as if I am slipping back on occasion. What progress I have made from it though, all done without help of a God or gods.

I think its possible that all living things make up the mind of a larger consciousness. I guess you might call this consciousness God and I would not disagree with that. It is the finer details of what this "God" is that I would. For instance, I do not think this God knows of individuals any more than we know of each blood cell in our bodies.
 
Jimmers said:
I am trying to get a clearer understanding of what you mean by this. How are atheists ignorant toward their own beliefs? Would you be able to provide any examples?
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I too would like a greater understanding of this because right now as it is, it seems almost condescending. I cant tell you how many people I have met who claim to be one religion or the other and who have never taken the time to actually read "their" religious texts or ask questions about the origins of their religion.

There are 45,000 different denominations of Christianity alone, each claiming to know better than all the others. Wouldnt you think the word of God, would not be open to such debate? I mean after all, an all powerful and knowing being should sure be able to use words that are true for all time and could never be questioned right?
 
[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION] - Please watch this and discuss it with me. Perhaps after you watch it you can speak to a non-believer in a way that will make him believe.

[video=youtube;xIErAz-ZO-I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIErAz-ZO-I[/video]
 
Its interesting. I was on youtube today looking for Benny Hill and got Benny Hinn. What I saw reminded me of all the reasons I can say religion is a determent to society. As I watched I became more and more disappointed. Humans, abandoning themselves to the imaginary. Much like the doctor who says, "I have done all that I can do, its in Gods hands now." Total BS, you are leaving it in the hands of an imaginary friend? Really? How about hitting the books a little harder? How about doing some more research or investigation? Leaving it in the hands of God? Bah!
 
LucyJr said:
His theory I think was more of a response or compesation for the absurdity of life whithout God.

He declared the death of God with despair and crying, terriefied by the meaninglesness of the existence. Nietzche was in a abys, a nihilistic depression, where everything was black and whithout any meaning. He celebrated in despair the absurd, the blindness, the disorder, the illusion of beauty and values, moral values, the absence of meaning in everything, the absence of a ultimate purpose to all the existence, the vanity and absurdity of all. Its a wonder he kept his sanity for such a long time.

Than he come up with the idea that all what is left in the absence of ideals, values, menaing, morals its the will to power, the fulfiling feeling and state of having as much power as you can. Nietzche theory was not just something merely intelectual, merely a philosophical answer. For him it was everything very real. He wanted to find something to forget about the pain, something to live for. He found the power of will. But I think he knew the truth about this one too.
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I think that's very true, Fromm suggests that people are driven to relate to others, he suggests through rational love, and when this is fundamentally blocked then people relate through power and control instead.

He suggests this is a sado-masochistic character structure because anyone who is seeking to control others or have power over them and who wants to objectify them is also dependent upon them in the final instance and does not experience freedom and independence, hence behaviour which escalates to destruction of the object, or even self and object together in a kind of mutually assured destruction.

It is interesting to see the same theorising existing in another form or broadly similar.

Fromm was an atheist but believed in God as a kind of metaphor for the universal or archetypical human. That was his object of devotion and his ethical frame of reference corresponded to it too, which are the two aspects he considered to exist of any religion, including religions with a small r or personal/idiosyncratic belief systems.
 
Eventhorizon said:
[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION] - Please watch this and discuss it with me. Perhaps after you watch it you can speak to a non-believer in a way that will make him believe.

[video=youtube;xIErAz-ZO-I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIErAz-ZO-I[/video]
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This is a very interesting video, but the last part makes me sad, since it tries to propagate a atheist propaganda.
And its not the fact itself, since I have nothing agaist atheists sharing their views, but it is that I was hoping to be a agnostic video, whithout taking any sides. (except the agnostic side, of course)

But I want to ask you a honest question. Are you a non religious believer because of the lack of evidences, or because you can't see any reasons for believing in a God, or because of great pain and suffering in the world, and mostly because you find something unsitysfing about religion in general? ...or....because you find repulsing the idea of religion, perhaps primitive and silly, and you tend to think that atheism is somehow a better, or a more rational and believable worldview?
 
Lark said:
I think that's very true, Fromm suggests that people are driven to relate to others, he suggests through rational love, and when this is fundamentally blocked then people relate through power and control instead.

He suggests this is a sado-masochistic character structure because anyone who is seeking to control others or have power over them and who wants to objectify them is also dependent upon them in the final instance and does not experience freedom and independence, hence behaviour which escalates to destruction of the object, or even self and object together in a kind of mutually assured destruction.

It is interesting to see the same theorising existing in another form or broadly similar.

Fromm was an atheist but believed in God as a kind of metaphor for the universal or archetypical human. That was his object of devotion and his ethical frame of reference corresponded to it too, which are the two aspects he considered to exist of any religion, including religions with a small r or personal/idiosyncratic belief systems.
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Nietache rejected the idea of love because he argumented that whithout God there can not be any meaning or value, so love itself would be something meaningless, a illusion.
 
Eventhorizon said:
Its interesting. I was on youtube today looking for Benny Hill and got Benny Hinn. What I saw reminded me of all the reasons I can say religion is a determent to society. As I watched I became more and more disappointed. Humans, abandoning themselves to the imaginary. Much like the doctor who says, "I have done all that I can do, its in Gods hands now." Total BS, you are leaving it in the hands of an imaginary friend? Really? How about hitting the books a little harder? How about doing some more research or investigation? Leaving it in the hands of God? Bah!
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The Bible says that God has some ways of making the man humble and weak, in situations where everything and anythink fails to meet the requirements, so that man will turn helpless toward God, and seek Him.
The only way we can be self-suffiecient and absolutely independent is if we can do everything, know anything, and we are self-existent. But those are the very attributes of God...so I think just like the Bible say, everything points toward the glory of God.
 
LucyJr said:
This is a very interesting video, but the last part makes me sad, since it tries to propagate a atheist propaganda.
And its not the fact itself, since I have nothing agaist atheists sharing their views, but it is that I was hoping to be a agnostic video, whithout taking any sides. (except the agnostic side, of course)

But I want to ask you a honest question. Are you a non religious believer because of the lack of evidences, or because you can't see any reasons for believing in a God, or because of great pain and suffering in the world, and mostly because you find something unsitysfing about religion in general? ...or....because you find repulsing the idea of religion, perhaps primitive and silly, and you tend to think that atheism is somehow a better, or a more rational and believable worldview?
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Yeah I understand what you mean by the last part. I never saw that until Lark mentioned it. I went back and watched and then I saw it. Its unfortunate this is what people who are religious seem take away from the video.

Why do I not believe in "God." Well I will tell you that I do not rule out the possibility of a supreme consciousness permeating our universe. I do however rule out the God as written of in the bible and other religious texts. Primarily though my main source of study was the God mentioned in the bible because this is the main one I was told about growing up etc. I have been looking for answers to all things most of my life. I have look for the origins of consciousness and a soul though to be fair it first started out with my trying to find my soul along with others. Anyway long story short, I researched even though I did not know that was what I was doing for 20+ years. IN my research I found out things that convinced me "God" was nothing more than a human creation. Then I had the unfortunate incident of getting sick in a way that is quite honestly difficult to describe. I can say that I believe I came close to death and that when I looked for my soul there, when it seemed like there was nothing in the way of my finding it if it was there, I found nothing.

Anyway, it has nothing to do with pain or suffering in the world etc. I just honestly whole heatedly believe the Gods in religious texts are a fully and complete human creation.

Thank you for watching the video by the way. I think its very cool that you did because I think it potentially helps open up a dialog between believers and non-believers.
 
Jimmers said:
I am trying to get a clearer understanding of what you mean by this. How are atheists ignorant toward their own beliefs? Would you be able to provide any examples?
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How many atheists clearly understand the implications of their own belief system?

Do you know that right now, while you and I are speaking, there are atheists philosophers in the world that struggle in despair to find any meaning and hope for humanity, WHITHOUT actually pretending and mistake themselfs that there is one, and they think day and night, day and night, over and over again in depression and despair, what is the meaning and purpose of this life?
And this is because they don't think there is any God to bring a solid foundation to meaning, values and purpose.
That was the life of Nietzche and other like him...he didn't believe in morality, yet when he saw a horse beaten to death, all his nihilistic philosophy was shaken from its very foundation, and after a few time, he becomed crazy.

This is what I'm trying to say...when we talk about God, HUGE and BIG things are involved...yet most of the atheists today are to me honestly, incredily naive in this aspect.
 
Eventhorizon said:
Yeah I understand what you mean by the last part. I never saw that until Lark mentioned it. I went back and watched and then I saw it. Its unfortunate this is what people who are religious seem take away from the video.

Why do I not believe in "God." Well I will tell you that I do not rule out the possibility of a supreme consciousness permeating our universe. I do however rule out the God as written of in the bible and other religious texts. Primarily though my main source of study was the God mentioned in the bible because this is the main one I was told about growing up etc. I have been looking for answers to all things most of my life. I have look for the origins of consciousness and a soul though to be fair it first started out with my trying to find my soul along with others. Anyway long story short, I researched even though I did not know that was what I was doing for 20+ years. IN my research I found out things that convinced me "God" was nothing more than a human creation. Then I had the unfortunate incident of getting sick in a way that is quite honestly difficult to describe. I can say that I believe I came close to death and that when I looked for my soul there, when it seemed like there was nothing in the way of my finding it if it was there, I found nothing.

Anyway, it has nothing to do with pain or suffering in the world etc. I just honestly whole heatedly believe the Gods in religious texts are a fully and complete human creation.

Thank you for watching the video by the way. I think its very cool that you did because I think it potentially helps open up a dialog between believers and non-believers.
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I hope I'll answer about the points in the video tomorrow, cause right now I'm really tired and need to sleep :D
 
LucyJr said:
How many atheists clearly understand the implications of their own belief system?
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Misnomer, atheism isn't a belief system.

The rest of your post is also moot without examples. Please show evidence of these, "depressed and despairing" atheist philosophers.
 
Neurosis said:
Misnomer, atheism isn't a belief system.
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Well how is that??? As far as I can tell, when it comes to belief, saying that God does not exist is a purely belief statement, since there is not a single athesit in this world who KNOWS there is no God. Atheists don't know there is no God, they believe there is no God.
So, again, atheists are believers. If you don't agree with me, please go and study some logic, and learn what is the difference between reason and faith. Your a INTP, you should know this much better than me.

The rest of your post is also moot without examples. Please show evidence of these, "depressed and despairing" atheist philosophers.
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There are many atheists like this. No, I'm not talking about Daniel Dennett or Sam Harris, those that are 'shinning in glory'. I'm talking about the REAL philosophers, the ones that take it serious. They are probably not even famous, so...
 
LucyJr said:
They believe there is no God.
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No. Not believing in a god is not the same as believing there is no god. As for the study logic comment, that was cute.

A common misconception among people is that logic is inherently correct. The problem with logic is its contextul malleability - given the right underlying axioms, anything can be logically proven.

Example: If one accepts the axiom that the bible is the word of god and that the morals expressed within are objectively correct, it is then logical to live and act as though the bible is true.

So then logic as it were, is a rather meaningless concept in and of itself. What is important in logic is not actually in being, "logical" but in using logical axioms - logical axioms arrive from an understanding built through observationally verifiable and empirical evidence. People are far too often skipping this step, and being logical - but completely wrong.

You know what's better than being logical? Being right.

There are many atheists like this.
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Yes you said that before. Somewhat paradoxically, there are apparently, "many" atheists like this - but you can't find many of them to give an example.

I guess I could just counter this argument by saying you're wrong and that there's actually more religious people struggling to find purpose. I won't give examples though because *insert excuse here*.
 
Neurosis said:
No. Not believing in a god is not the same as believing there is no god. As for the study logic comment, that was cute.
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Yes, you're right, but I think you missed everything what I had said. You jump at your own conclusions fast. I didn't said anything about not believing in a God, because that's not atheism. Atheism is believing there are no Gods whatsoever, That's faith, my friend, wether you recognise it or not. Just be honest.

The statement "There are no deities or Gods", which is basically atheism, is not AGNOSTICISM. Agnostics say "We don't wether there is a God or not", which is different than atheists, who say "We know there are no Gods".

For a atheist to know there is no God, that's quite...impossible honestly. The atheists have faith, blind faith there is no God, just like religious people.

In my opinion, you need alot more faith to be a atheist than to be a religious man. The order in the Universe, the complexity of life, the necesity for a ground of existence, the design of the Universe and many other things point clearly toward a Designer. Yet atheists say its just nature...things are all by themselfs...from chaos arise order, from rocks life, from stupidity reason and so on...

A common misconception among people is that logic is inherently correct. The problem with logic is its contextul malleability - given the right underlying axioms, anything can be logically proven.

Example: If one accepts the axiom that the bible is the word of god and that the morals expressed within are objectively correct, it is then logical to live and act as though the bible is true.

So then logic as it were, is a rather meaningless concept in and of itself. What is important in logic is not actually in being, "logical" but in using logical axioms - logical axioms arrive from an understanding built through observationally verifiable and empirical evidence. People are far too often skipping this step, and being logical - but completely wrong.

You know what's better than being logical? Being right.
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I don't have missconceptions about logic, as far as I can tell.

So being right is better than being logical...agree...but are you saying atheists are right? Like you 100% know atheists are right?
Even if you say it, you say it by faith, not by facts. So am I. I know There is a God, I know you atheists are wrong, but I can't prove it to you by facts, I just believe, I now this is where the most evidences point. So I make the leap of faith, I have faith there is a all powerful God. Its not facts, its faith. But than this is exactly what atheists are doing. They have faith there is no God, they can not prove it, they just have faith. They make the leap of faith from agnosticism to athism.
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About logic...
Althought I completly agree with what you said, I see logic in a much more broad spectrum, not just logic as purely logic laws. I see logic as the entire reason itself. To me, everything that is is logical, not robotic logic or objective logic, but logical in the sense that everything is tied closely, everything makes sense in the big picture. There is a underlying unity in everything. That's logic to me.

Yes you said that before. Somewhat paradoxically, there are apparently, "many" atheists like this - but you can't find many of them to give an example.

I guess I could just counter this argument by saying you're wrong and that there's actually more religious people struggling to find purpose. I won't give examples though because *insert excuse here*.
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I don't know any famous atheist to give you a example, at least in these days.
But I know many from history, like Nietzche, Satre, Voltaire and many many others. Just let me think at some of them and I will give you a more generous list.

As for nowadays, there are many of them in my university, like my philosophy teachers. And I know there are everywhere around the world. Of course they are not famous...how could they? They are in what is called existential crisis...mayny of them manage to find a hope and get over, while many others...its not that they can't pass over it...its just that they don't want to.
 
The term "famous atheist" sounds like an oxymoron to me, but that's just me.
 
Neurosis said:
Misnomer, atheism isn't a belief system.

The rest of your post is also moot without examples. Please show evidence of these, "depressed and despairing" atheist philosophers.
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Atheism is a belief system, even if it only has one tenant in it's most basic form.
 
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