The Dope on the Pope
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Lark
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Thanks. That's cleared things up for me. You prefer having a laugh to discussion.
Lark
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Its not liberation theology though, its one of the principles of the society of jesus, the jesuits that they practice the preferential option for the poor.
Liberation theology and other trends within the RCC where threatening to reinterpret Christianity as a form of humanism devoid of any spiritual or supernatural aspect. It was around the fringes of the ecumenical and second vatican council's extremes and probably not in the spirit of many of the proponents who had begun the processes that converged into this, such as Karl Rahner, Hans Kung, Gusta Guiterrez (spelling), Leonardo Boff or Jose Miranda (who I liked a lot) but it was there none the less and as menacing to what I believe the RCC and Roman Catholicism are or should be as anything cooked up by their opposites like Mel Gibson's dad and co.
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Humans commit crime - and even though all statistics point to the fact that clergy abuse at a rate less than 1/2 that of the rest of the male population, such crimes should be dealt with consistently. The minimum, which I think that conspiracy theorists insanely overlook, is the necessity for evidence/proof - so that crime is determined according to fact and not supposition, or imagination.
So, the real fact of actual crimes committed by some individuals in a group does not automatically mean that every member of that group is guilty of a crime. Such a mentality is identical with racism, or any other form of prejudice - or judgement without evidence -. Because a black man raped a women is not evidence that every black man is a rapist. Because a priest has abused children is not evidence that every priest has abused children.
Use logic. Use reason. To do otherwise is insane.
Lark
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This sort of anti-catholicism is tantamount to the protocols of the elders of zion is to the Jews.
The difference? The jews are considered a community rather than an institution.
However its the same thing, begun by the protestant reformation and carried on by secular liberalism.
muir
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Are you aware that the vatican is just a continuance of the babylonian religions?
Have you read either the Golden Bough or the White Goddess?
Both discuss the old religions and their human sacrifice. What they would do is bind the sacrificial victim to a post, knock them over the head with a club to make them insensible and then stab them to death before cutting off their flesh which the attendants would eat and collecting the blood which the attendants would drink
Sound familiar?
Of course it does...it's the catholic mass!
Read over the thread and see how much abuse has been going on in the church.....what you must realise is that this stuff cannot go on in closed communities without other people knowing
Think about this for example.....i mentioned Jimmy saville above. he was good friends with the royal family and he visited them at their palaces often and they even visited him at his home for example his cottage in Glencoe (see pic below). As that channel 4 news clip i posted above says the staff at Broadmoor prison for the clinically insane which Saville (a TV celebrity!) was put in charge of!!!!!!! knew that he was a peadophile and a psychopath. Also celebrities have been saying publically that they knew rumours about saville and Ike even publically denounced him....so people knew what was going on. Saville was even questioned by the police who are covering up that interview
The royal family are constantly surrounded by police escorts and intelligence agency people who advise them. There is NO way that the royal family would not have known about the activities of saville....NO WAY......so think about that for a while.....the royal family were knowingly consorting with and gave a knighthood to a known paedophile and rapist (britain's most prolific to date)
It's the same in the vatican.....people know what is going on...ratzinger was up to his neck in the cover ups and the new pope who i criticised on this forum when people were singing his praises was involved in the fascist regimes in south america which murdered many including catholic priests who were actually genuine christians not like these fake babylonian christians
Just look at the vatican...have you ever been there? Its a palace of corruption and wealth
If you really want to dig into the truth then you should research operation gladio, the P2 Lodge and the vatican banking scandal...i tell you man you will learn things that blow your mind
There is a network...and there IS plenty of proof for this network...i can't give all that proof in a single post but what i can do is direct you to places where you can get it...but that requires you to then look at it
There's no point putting your fingers in your ears and saying ''la la la la its all conspiracy theory la la la you're crazy la la la'' if you're not willing to look at new evidence because all that is doing is being close minded and you will just keep falsly accusing me of being wrong
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muir
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Have you read the protocols of the elders of zion?
Because someone is clearly following them to the letter!
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So much assertion, no evidence, no logic. Sigh - asserting connections through resemblance is crazy. If my car has seven spokes on the alloy wheels, is this some evidence of zoroastrian influences on the ideology of the car manufacturer? Wheels are based on circles.. oh no! If I drive my car will a reptilian-babylonian-masonic-zionist control my mind through the deliberate harmonics implanted in the engine management software? Fuck! I use a circular analog watch with intersecting circular date/alarm faces - I'm in danger now, especially because I drink tap water.
Lark
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That probably says so much more than a lengthy discussion taking each point in turn.
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Oh?
I'm sorry...I really thought you were messing with me and I chose to laugh about it.
Hmmm....why should they be out of the business of telling others whether they have the right to birth control etc?
Because we are Sovereign beings.
Because we are Spiritual beings having a human experience.
Because they have no right lying in their best interest by setting themselves up as a barrier between a person and their god(s).
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I think people should have the right to say that human nature is so awesome that interfering with its natural processes isn't awesome.
Is it wrong to say that hens shouldn't have their beaks nipped off, and be stuffed full of hormones? Is it wrong to say that humans shouldn't have bits nipped, or be stuffing themselves with hormones?
I understand that saying things reflects an opinion about other opinions, but are any opinions so priveleged as to be beyond a different perspective?
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No. An opinion is an opinion....and no two people can see through each other's eyes.
You say it so well.... much better than I.
muir
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There's plenty of proof but as i say i can't cram it into one post
What i can do is post a number of articles over a number of posts and recommend some sources but i can't do all the work for you
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muir
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That probably says so much more than a lengthy discussion taking each point in turn.
Not really...i read the the subtext of that post to say: ''i'm ignorant of the truth and because i associate with the catholic church i am going to blind myself willfully from the truth including the churches cover up of their widespread sexual abuse of children''
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Lark
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What authority are you speaking with? How is it more legitimate than theirs? who is "we"?
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Me.
I'm the Sovereign one.
I'm the authority over me.
"We" is just a larger expression of Me.
Lark
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I dont see why I should accept your opinions as any more authoritative than those of the RCC, at least you believe this is self-evident and havent made the case. If you are suggesting that you consider private conscience to have primacy then that's fine but even so, accepting that as either a philosophical or moral first principle, what would provide an individual's intuitive readings or conclusions on any subject with authority or legitimacy?
If you are using the "royal we" then that makes sense, I thought you were speaking for a body of opinion though and its good to have that clarification.
muir
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...igation-memorial-800-dead-babies-planned.html
Thousands of children in Irish care homes at centre of 'baby graves scandal' were used in secret vaccine trials in the 1930s
Published: 09:17, 6 June 2014 | Updated: 13:49, 6 June 2014
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-800-dead-babies-planned.html#ixzz34Gm22IBl
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Scientists secretly vaccinated more than 2,000 children in religious-run homes in suspected illegal drug trials, it emerged today.
Old medical records show that 2,051 children and babies in Irish care homes were given a one-shot diphtheria vaccine for international drugs giant Burroughs Wellcome between 1930 and 1936.
There is no evidence that consent was ever sought, nor any records of how many may have died or suffered debilitating side-effects as a result.
The scandal was revealed as Irish premier, Enda Kenny, ordered ministers to see whether there are more mass baby graves after the discovery that 800 infants may be buried in a septic tank outside a former mother and baby home in Tuam, Co. Galway.
+7
Children at Sean Ross Abbey in Tipperary are thought to have been used in secret drug trials in the 1930s
Children's homes are under the spotlight since it emerged that 796 babies may be buried at the former mother and baby home at Tuam, Co. Galway - Enda Kenny has ordered officials to see if other mass graves exist
+7
The Irish premier has ordered his officials to examine the possibility that there may be other mass graves, too
The Taioseach intervened from the United States yesterday to say that he had ordered his officials to 'see what the scale is, what's involved here, and whether this is isolated or if there are others around the country that need to be looked at.'
Michael Dwyer, of Cork University’s School of History, found the child vaccination data by trawling through tens of thousands of medical journal articles and archive files.
He discovered that the trials were carried out before the vaccine was made available for commercial use in the UK.
Homes where children were secretly tested included Bessborough, in Co. Cork and Sean Ross Abbey in Roscrea, Co. Tipperary, both of which are at the centre of the mass baby graves scandal.
More...
Other institutions where children may also have been vaccinated include Cork orphanages St Joseph’s Industrial School for Boys, run by the Presentation Brothers, and St Finbarr’s Industrial School for Girls, run by the Sisters of the Good Shepherd.
In Dublin, it is believed that children for the trials came from St Vincent’s Industrial School, Goldenbridge, St Joseph’s School for Deaf Boys, Cabra, and St Saviours’s Dominican Orphanage.
But Mr Dwyer said: 'What I have found is just the tip of a very large and submerged iceberg.
'The fact that no record of these trials can be found in the files relating to the Department of Local Government and Public Health, the Municipal Health Reports relating to Cork and Dublin, or the Wellcome Archives in London, suggests that vaccine trials would not have been acceptable to government, municipal authorities, or the general public.
'However, the fact that reports of these trials were published in the most prestigious medical journals suggests that this type of human experimentation was largely accepted by medical practitioners and facilitated by authorities in charge of children’s residential institutions.'
+7
Horror: The scandal of the babies in the mass grave was discovered by local historian, Catherine Corless
+7
Innocence: Academic Michael Dwyer found out about the secret drugs trials by going through old medical records - children from the Sean Ross Abbey home in Tipperary, pictured, are thought to have been involved
A spokesman for GSK – formerly Wellcome – said: 'The activities that have been described to us date back over 70 years and, if true, are clearly very distressing.
'We would need further details to investigate what actually took place, but the practices outlined certainly don’t reflect how modern clinical trials are carried out. We conduct our trials to the same high scientific and ethical standards, no matter where in the world they are run.'
A spokeswoman for the Sisters of Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary, the order that ran Bessborough and Sean Ross Abbey, said that like GSK, they would also welcome an independent inquiry.
Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin called on the Irish government to add vaccine trials into the investigative remit of any inquiry into the mother and baby homes.
He said: 'We need to start with an independent investigation into the mother and baby homes which would be followed by a wider separate investigation into the vaccine testing.'
Historian Catherine Corless, whose discovery of the suspected mass baby grave at Tuam was revealed by the Mail earlier this week, said her study of death records for the St Mary's home run by Catholic Bon Secours nuns from 1925-1961 pointed to the existence of the mass grave.
+7
Children's homes in Ireland were often the only place where a woman pregnant out of wedlock could go
+7
Children were looked after by nuns and often adopted abroad - now it seems they were used in drugs trials, too
The Irish PM interrupted a trade visit to San Francisco to order an inquiry in the Tuam home and others, saying that Dublin must decide what is the 'best thing to do in the interest of dealing with yet another element of our country's past.'
St Mary's was one of several such 'mother and baby' homes for 'fallen women' who had become pregnant outside marriage in early 20th century Ireland.
Another such institution was the Sean Ross Abbey in Tipperary, was where Philomena Lee gave up her son for adoption in the 1950s. Her story was made into the Oscar-nominated film 'Philomena' last year.
The 'mother and baby' homes accommodated women who were ostracised from their own families and had nowhere else to turn.
Under conservative Catholic teaching of the time, children born outside of marriage were not baptised and were therefore denied a Catholic burial on consecrated ground.
Thousands of children in Irish care homes at centre of 'baby graves scandal' were used in secret vaccine trials in the 1930s
- Scientists secretly gave 2,051 children and babies diphtheria vaccine
- They were used as guinea pigs for drugs giant Burroughs Wellcome in 1930s
- Academic Michael Dwyer uncovered shock truth in old medical records
- He found no evidence of consent, nor of how many died or were affected
- Comes as Irish PM intervenes from U.S. over scandal of mass baby grave
- Hundreds of babies are believed to have been buried at former baby home
- Enda Kenny says he's ordered his officials to examine 'if there are others'
Published: 09:17, 6 June 2014 | Updated: 13:49, 6 June 2014
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-800-dead-babies-planned.html#ixzz34Gm22IBl
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Scientists secretly vaccinated more than 2,000 children in religious-run homes in suspected illegal drug trials, it emerged today.
Old medical records show that 2,051 children and babies in Irish care homes were given a one-shot diphtheria vaccine for international drugs giant Burroughs Wellcome between 1930 and 1936.
There is no evidence that consent was ever sought, nor any records of how many may have died or suffered debilitating side-effects as a result.
The scandal was revealed as Irish premier, Enda Kenny, ordered ministers to see whether there are more mass baby graves after the discovery that 800 infants may be buried in a septic tank outside a former mother and baby home in Tuam, Co. Galway.
+7
Children at Sean Ross Abbey in Tipperary are thought to have been used in secret drug trials in the 1930s
+7
The Irish premier has ordered his officials to examine the possibility that there may be other mass graves, too
The Taioseach intervened from the United States yesterday to say that he had ordered his officials to 'see what the scale is, what's involved here, and whether this is isolated or if there are others around the country that need to be looked at.'
Michael Dwyer, of Cork University’s School of History, found the child vaccination data by trawling through tens of thousands of medical journal articles and archive files.
He discovered that the trials were carried out before the vaccine was made available for commercial use in the UK.
Homes where children were secretly tested included Bessborough, in Co. Cork and Sean Ross Abbey in Roscrea, Co. Tipperary, both of which are at the centre of the mass baby graves scandal.
More...
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Other institutions where children may also have been vaccinated include Cork orphanages St Joseph’s Industrial School for Boys, run by the Presentation Brothers, and St Finbarr’s Industrial School for Girls, run by the Sisters of the Good Shepherd.
In Dublin, it is believed that children for the trials came from St Vincent’s Industrial School, Goldenbridge, St Joseph’s School for Deaf Boys, Cabra, and St Saviours’s Dominican Orphanage.
But Mr Dwyer said: 'What I have found is just the tip of a very large and submerged iceberg.
'The fact that no record of these trials can be found in the files relating to the Department of Local Government and Public Health, the Municipal Health Reports relating to Cork and Dublin, or the Wellcome Archives in London, suggests that vaccine trials would not have been acceptable to government, municipal authorities, or the general public.
'However, the fact that reports of these trials were published in the most prestigious medical journals suggests that this type of human experimentation was largely accepted by medical practitioners and facilitated by authorities in charge of children’s residential institutions.'
+7
Horror: The scandal of the babies in the mass grave was discovered by local historian, Catherine Corless
+7
Innocence: Academic Michael Dwyer found out about the secret drugs trials by going through old medical records - children from the Sean Ross Abbey home in Tipperary, pictured, are thought to have been involved
A spokesman for GSK – formerly Wellcome – said: 'The activities that have been described to us date back over 70 years and, if true, are clearly very distressing.
'We would need further details to investigate what actually took place, but the practices outlined certainly don’t reflect how modern clinical trials are carried out. We conduct our trials to the same high scientific and ethical standards, no matter where in the world they are run.'
A spokeswoman for the Sisters of Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary, the order that ran Bessborough and Sean Ross Abbey, said that like GSK, they would also welcome an independent inquiry.
Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin called on the Irish government to add vaccine trials into the investigative remit of any inquiry into the mother and baby homes.
He said: 'We need to start with an independent investigation into the mother and baby homes which would be followed by a wider separate investigation into the vaccine testing.'
Historian Catherine Corless, whose discovery of the suspected mass baby grave at Tuam was revealed by the Mail earlier this week, said her study of death records for the St Mary's home run by Catholic Bon Secours nuns from 1925-1961 pointed to the existence of the mass grave.
+7
Children's homes in Ireland were often the only place where a woman pregnant out of wedlock could go
+7
Children were looked after by nuns and often adopted abroad - now it seems they were used in drugs trials, too
The Irish PM interrupted a trade visit to San Francisco to order an inquiry in the Tuam home and others, saying that Dublin must decide what is the 'best thing to do in the interest of dealing with yet another element of our country's past.'
St Mary's was one of several such 'mother and baby' homes for 'fallen women' who had become pregnant outside marriage in early 20th century Ireland.
Another such institution was the Sean Ross Abbey in Tipperary, was where Philomena Lee gave up her son for adoption in the 1950s. Her story was made into the Oscar-nominated film 'Philomena' last year.
The 'mother and baby' homes accommodated women who were ostracised from their own families and had nowhere else to turn.
Under conservative Catholic teaching of the time, children born outside of marriage were not baptised and were therefore denied a Catholic burial on consecrated ground.
muir
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-know-illegal-priests-sex-children-1980s.html
[h=1]Archbishop quizzed in sexual abuse lawsuit claims he didn't know it was illegal for priests to have sex with children in the 1980s[/h]
Published: 23:42, 10 June 2014 | Updated: 00:30, 11 June 2014
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...priests-sex-children-1980s.html#ixzz34KbR8oB2
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
A St Louis archbishop embroiled in a sexual abuse scandal has claimed he didn’t know it was illegal for priests to have sex with children in the 1980s, according to a court deposition released on Monday.
Archbishop Robert Carlson, who was chancellor of the Archdiocese of Minneapolis and St. Paul at the time, was deposed as part of a sexual abuse lawsuit in Minnesota involving the archdiocese and the Diocese of Winona.
In a testimony filmed last month and released by the St. Paul law firm Jeff Anderson & Associates, the Catholic archbishop was asked whether he had known it was a crime for an adult to engage in sex with a child.
Scroll down for video
+3
Archbishop Robert Carlson, who was chancellor of the Archdiocese of Minneapolis and St. Paul in the 1980s, has been deposed as part of a sexual abuse lawsuit in Minnesota involving the archdiocese and the Diocese of Winona
‘I’m not sure whether I knew it was a crime or not,’ Carlson responded. ‘I understand today it’s a crime.’
When asked when he first realized it was a crime for an adult - including priests - to have sex with a child, Carlson, 69, shook his head.
‘I don’t remember,’ he testified.
[h=4]More...[/h]
Yet according to other documents released by attorney Jeff Anderson, who is representing an alleged clergy abuse victim, Carlson showed clear knowledge that sexual abuse was a crime when discussing incidents with church officials during his time in Minnesota.
In a 1984 document, for example, Carlson wrote to the then-archbishop of St. Paul and Minneapolis - John R. Roach - about one victim of sexual abuse and mentioned that the statute of limitations for filing a claim would not expire for more than two years.
+3
'I don't remember': When asked when he first realized it was a crime for an adult - including priests - to have sex with a child, Carlson, 69, shook his head
He also wrote that the parents of the victim were considering reporting the incident to the police.
Carlson’s role at the time was to investigate abuse claims. He admitted in his deposition that he never personally went to police, even when a clergy member admitted to inappropriate behavior.
In the testimony, Carlson responded 193 times that he did not recall abuse-related conversations from the 1980s to mid-1990s.
Carlson also said that even in 1996 he did not know that pedophilia was a disorder that couldn’t be cured.
“I did not know that, but as a pastor, I was becoming increasingly concerned,” Carlson said.
+3
Carlson left the Archdiocese of Minneapolis and St. Paul in 1994, and eventually became St. Louis archbishop in 2009
Carlson left the Archdiocese of Minneapolis and St. Paul in 1994, and eventually became St. Louis archbishop in 2009.
The Archdiocese of St. Louis said in a statement on Monday that Carlson had given testimony ‘several times many years ago’ about the same allegations.
‘In this most recent deposition, while not being able to recall his knowledge of the law exactly as it was many decades ago, the Archbishop did make clear that he knows child sex abuse is a crime today,’ the statement said.
‘The question does not address the Archbishop’s moral stance on the sin of pedophilia, which has been that it is a most egregious offense.’
The trial against the Twin Cities archdiocese is set to begin in September.
Video: Archbishop Carlson is interviewed about sexual abuse allegations
[video=youtube;upW7SHAjSEA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upW7SHAjSEA[/video]
[h=1]Archbishop quizzed in sexual abuse lawsuit claims he didn't know it was illegal for priests to have sex with children in the 1980s[/h]
- Archbishop Robert Carlson was chancellor of the Archdiocese of Minneapolis and St. Paul in the 1980s
- He has been deposed as part of a sexual abuse lawsuit in Minnesota involving the archdiocese and the Diocese of Winona
- In a testimony filmed last month he was asked whether he had known it was a crime for an adult to engage in sex with a child in the 1980s
- 'I'm not sure whether I knew it was a crime or not,' he responded
Published: 23:42, 10 June 2014 | Updated: 00:30, 11 June 2014
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...priests-sex-children-1980s.html#ixzz34KbR8oB2
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
A St Louis archbishop embroiled in a sexual abuse scandal has claimed he didn’t know it was illegal for priests to have sex with children in the 1980s, according to a court deposition released on Monday.
Archbishop Robert Carlson, who was chancellor of the Archdiocese of Minneapolis and St. Paul at the time, was deposed as part of a sexual abuse lawsuit in Minnesota involving the archdiocese and the Diocese of Winona.
In a testimony filmed last month and released by the St. Paul law firm Jeff Anderson & Associates, the Catholic archbishop was asked whether he had known it was a crime for an adult to engage in sex with a child.
Scroll down for video
+3
Archbishop Robert Carlson, who was chancellor of the Archdiocese of Minneapolis and St. Paul in the 1980s, has been deposed as part of a sexual abuse lawsuit in Minnesota involving the archdiocese and the Diocese of Winona
‘I’m not sure whether I knew it was a crime or not,’ Carlson responded. ‘I understand today it’s a crime.’
When asked when he first realized it was a crime for an adult - including priests - to have sex with a child, Carlson, 69, shook his head.
‘I don’t remember,’ he testified.
[h=4]More...[/h]
- Caroline Kennedy halted the sale of her mother's letters to an Irish priest 'by claiming that she owns Jackie's copyright'
- Con artist, 34, who posed for months as 15-year-old high school sophomore sentenced to 85 days in jail
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Yet according to other documents released by attorney Jeff Anderson, who is representing an alleged clergy abuse victim, Carlson showed clear knowledge that sexual abuse was a crime when discussing incidents with church officials during his time in Minnesota.
In a 1984 document, for example, Carlson wrote to the then-archbishop of St. Paul and Minneapolis - John R. Roach - about one victim of sexual abuse and mentioned that the statute of limitations for filing a claim would not expire for more than two years.
+3
'I don't remember': When asked when he first realized it was a crime for an adult - including priests - to have sex with a child, Carlson, 69, shook his head
He also wrote that the parents of the victim were considering reporting the incident to the police.
Carlson’s role at the time was to investigate abuse claims. He admitted in his deposition that he never personally went to police, even when a clergy member admitted to inappropriate behavior.
In the testimony, Carlson responded 193 times that he did not recall abuse-related conversations from the 1980s to mid-1990s.
Carlson also said that even in 1996 he did not know that pedophilia was a disorder that couldn’t be cured.
“I did not know that, but as a pastor, I was becoming increasingly concerned,” Carlson said.
+3
Carlson left the Archdiocese of Minneapolis and St. Paul in 1994, and eventually became St. Louis archbishop in 2009
Carlson left the Archdiocese of Minneapolis and St. Paul in 1994, and eventually became St. Louis archbishop in 2009.
The Archdiocese of St. Louis said in a statement on Monday that Carlson had given testimony ‘several times many years ago’ about the same allegations.
‘In this most recent deposition, while not being able to recall his knowledge of the law exactly as it was many decades ago, the Archbishop did make clear that he knows child sex abuse is a crime today,’ the statement said.
‘The question does not address the Archbishop’s moral stance on the sin of pedophilia, which has been that it is a most egregious offense.’
The trial against the Twin Cities archdiocese is set to begin in September.
Video: Archbishop Carlson is interviewed about sexual abuse allegations
[video=youtube;upW7SHAjSEA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upW7SHAjSEA[/video]