The French and Infidelity

Deleted member 16771 said:
I think it's probably stranger that it's not illegal, considering the consequences and damage.

It's relationship fraud, and people who engage in it are usually bad people.

For me it's non-negotiable, and will always spell the end of the relationship. The cheater then ceases to exist as a 'real person' in my mind, and becomes something else - one of 'them'.

If I find out that you've ever cheated, then it's like telling me you used to skim off the tills in your retail job. It immediately categorises you as morally worthless for me.
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Yep
 
And actually, the bible is clear on the topic. Old testament focused on physical sins, aka, murder and physical fornication, adultery, etc etc. New testament condemns thoughts of such things because thoughts eventually become actions, and are nearly as good as doing.

Mathew 5:28 NIV

"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
 
Korg said:
Well again, getting back to OP's question of westerners being more upset by infidelity than the French, I'm suggesting it's because westerners are ignorant to how human sexuality really works. The fall from utopia probably hurts more than the fall from reality, but I agree it's a fall nonetheless.

It's like some guys I've known, who come to me all shattered: "I was working 90 hours a week selling life insurance and paying all the bills. Yeah, I was never home and the sex was non-existent but I was a good provider! She actually fucked the garbage man behind my back! How could she?!" To that, all I can say is ...it sucks and, yes it's a betrayal. But like I said earlier: you better go into long term relationships with your eyes wide open. If you're astonished that scenario played out then you went in 100% blind, my dude.

It's reasonable to be upset you didn't get any presents Christmas morning, but also feeling hurt that Santa himself never came down the chimney, that's on you.
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I think we're talking past each other on this one.
 
Korg said:
Yeah, I considered the same thing. I'll have to go back re-read this when I have more time.

I think I was trying to explain a cultural difference to the OP whereas you wanted to know my personal stance on infidelity and why I don't think it's as 'bad' as you do.
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Yep, that sounds like what's happened.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
Ren, my friend...

I haven't even decided how much I'm joking about this, lol.

I might even be completely serious, I don't know.
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You might be serious. One thing I know about Fi users is that they get VERY sanctimonious about their morality. Time and again, I have seen Fi users act like their moral conscience is gods gift to the world.

Fe is more universal with its morality and tends to be more open about being wrong. I don't understand it, personally. But then again, its not for me to understand.
 
Aaron Thyne said:
Fe is more universal with its morality and tends to be more open about being wrong. I don't understand it, personally. But then again, its not for me to understand.
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One way to make sense of this is to consider that extroverted feeling is directed towards the object, i.e. objective. It is not 'in' the subject, which is why the Fe user can look at a set of moral principles one step removed from it, and be more detached about it, such as when they admit they're wrong, etc.

According to that same logic it would be much harder for an INFJ to let their vision (Ni) be called into question, or for an INTP to let their manner of reasoning and the systematic frameworks of reference they have developed (Ti) be questioned, which I think is true as well. This is because introverted functions are directed towards the subject, i.e. subjective.

Your own brother is a good example of introverted thinking lol. He will just not let go of the Popperian and Deutschian lens of analysis.
 
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Ren said:
According to that logic it would be much harder for an INFJ to let their vision (Ni) be called into question, or for an INTP to let their manner of reasoning and the systematic frameworks of reference they have developed (Ti) be questioned, which I think is true as well.

Your own brother, though I know he identifies an ENTP, is a good example lol. He will just not let go of the Popperian and
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Yup, absolutely true. Ti does take their personal truths very seriously.

By the way, did he say Popper was HIS thing? That little gremlin, Popper is MY thing. lol.
 
Aaron Thyne said:
Interesting. Anyway, yes the introverted functions do tend to be a little "extreme". Although, I personally find Fi the scariest since it is "moral piety" that can motivate people to act out in spectacular violence.
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It seems that's it's often INTPs who find Fi scary. It's interesting to observe—maybe it has to do with a kind of direct clash between Fi and Ti.
 
Ren said:
It seems that's it's often INTPs who find Fi scary. It's interesting to observe—maybe it has to do with a kind of direct clash between Fi and Ti.
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I just don't understand it. If half the worlds population has this function, what kind of world am I living in? How do I relate to people again when almost half of them are willing to hurt me for having the wrong morality. This is not something I feel comfortable with.
 
If I had a partner for a long period of time and my partner intended to have sex with another person, I would prefer they let me know. Depending on the circumstances, I probably would let them, because to me the confession and communication of their desire upholds the trust that we have built in the relationship, and there is so much more (and most of it arguably more meaningful, where I am concerned) to a relationship than sex. However, if they acted on their desire without first communicating it to me, I would be furious because that is a breach of trust and upends the very foundation upon which the relationship is built. It’s not the extra-relationship sex that concerns me, but that my partner is not genuine or trustworthy.

So I guess it depends on how you define “infidelity”; my own definition is obviously quite literal.
 
socks said:
If I had a partner for a long period of time and my partner intended to have sex with another person, I would prefer they let me know. Depending on the circumstances, I probably would let them, because to me the confession and communication of their desire upholds the trust that we have built in the relationship, and there is so much more (and most of it arguably more meaningful, where I am concerned) to a relationship than sex. However, if they acted on their desire without first communicating it to me, I would be furious because that is a breach of trust and upends the very foundation upon which the relationship is built. It’s not the extra-relationship sex that concerns me, but that my partner is not genuine or trustworthy.

So I guess it depends on how you define “infidelity”; my own definition is obviously quite literal.
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Do you think you would have a way of being sure that your partner isn't lying to you about having feelings for the other person, whilst staying with you for security?
 
Ren said:
Do you think you would have a way of being sure that your partner isn't lying to you about having feelings for the other person, whilst staying with you for security?
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Oh, I fully expect they would have feelings for the other person. For me, sex is a physical extension of love and feelings, I couldn’t see having sex without love. I understand not everyone shares this view, but because I do, I would instinctively expect that connection to be there. I’m fine with this. Just because my partner loves another person doesn’t mean their love for me is lessened. Humans and emotions are complicated and living in a quantum universe as ours, we must stay open-minded to the possibility that one truth does not always cancel out another truth, and that “conflict” is often times nothing more than our perception of events.

In every relationship I have a set of tenets that are absolutely non-negotiable, and as long as those tenets are accepted, honored, and reciprocated by both myself and my partner, I’ve found that I can be quite happy in all sorts of romantic relationship with all sorts of styles. Why my partner stays with me is immaterial.
 
I don't think I obsess over infidelity, but I think if I were confronted with it it would be a big problem in a relationship. It's not something I ordinarily think of or worry about though.

I would probably end a long term relationship over infidelity. I can admit I'm a jealous person and I won't share my person with anyone in that way.

I couldn't be physically intimate again with someone who broke trust like that and I couldn't happily live in the same home either. I don't think I could let go of the grudge unless that relationship ended. I know for me, it's unrealistic to say I could in any way transcend it. And if my partner expressed an interest in a particular person and had the chance to go for it and expressed truly wanting to do so-- I'd cut them lose and let them go for it. I'd appreciate their honesty but that's just not for me so I'd let them go if they really wanted the other person. I am all or nothing. Is that an American thing?

But I also know that people in LTR can still have crushes and be attracted to other people. I think that's just how it is. And acting on it makes it an issue.

But when it comes to politicians or public figures, I could not care less what they do with other consenting adults. It's just more a personal thing.
 
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acd said:
I don't think I obsess over infidelity, but I think if I were confronted with it it would be a big problem in a relationship. It's not something I ordinarily think of or worry about though.

I would probably end a long term relationship over infidelity. I can admit I'm a jealous person and I won't share my person with anyone in that way.

I couldn't be physically intimate again with someone who broke trust like that and I couldn't happily live in the same home either. I don't think I could let go of the grudge unless that relationship ended. I know for me, it's unrealistic to say I could in any way transcend it. And if my partner expressed an interest in a particular person and had the chance to go for it and expressed truly wanting to do so-- I'd cut them lose and let them go for it. I'd appreciate their honesty but that's just not for me so I'd let them go if they really wanted the other person. I am all or nothing. Is that an American thing?

But I also know that people in LTR can still have crushes and be attracted to other people. I think that's just how it is. And acting on it makes it an issue.

But when it comes to politicians or public figures, I could not care less what they do with other consenting adults. It's just more a personal thing.
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This is pretty much my position.

No it's not 'an American thing'. Human beings are hardwired for jealousy for very good evolutionary reasons and different cultures deal with that differently.

Some people carry genes that predict the desire for extra-pair bonding.

Some people are wired up for k-selection, others for R-selection (quality or quantity of offspring).

Humans are pretty diverse when it comes to mating strategies, and personally I think it's an instinctive thing whatever our tendency is.
 
Wyote said:
Would people still enjoy sinning if they fully understood how it negatively affected their life
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Is enjoyment itself a sin
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Yeah I think they would. We're talking about people who enjoy perversions of all kinds here. I think they know what they're doing.

Enjoyment itself isn't a sin in my view, because I don't subscribe to this whole idea of 'sin' :p
 
Aaron Thyne said:
In a book called The Culture Code, the author Clotaire Rapaille explained that the French don't obsess over infidelity like Americans.

According to Rapaille, this obsession America has with cheating and infidelity is not universal. Some cultures don't fuss over it nearly as much as we do. The reason, apparently, is that these other cultures are much much older than Americas. And so they have already figured out how to deal with the natural proclivity to philander and play around.

Personally, I don't take infidelity too seriously. If I'm cheated on, I'll talk about it and them move on. It's really not something I get angry or emotionally riled up about. But what do you guys think?
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What do you mean by obsess?
Like, we obsess that it will happen to us? That we will do it? Or we obsess over it once it has been done to us?

I'm just not understanding what you're meaning by Americans obsess over infidelity.

I think infidelity is something to be hurt over. I don't think it's the act nearly as much as the dishonesty factor, though.

Every relationship is different. The spectrum of emotions within relationships vary from one to the next. It seems unfair to compare one country to another when really, it's such a personal thing, in my opinion.
 
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