The games men play

[Gaze]

I think there are so many options, and more potential partners available today, so people don't stick around long if they're not getting the response, encouragement, or interest they desire. People usually will only give time and attention, in today's world, to something they feel offers them something they don't have to work too hard for. If they think the effort is too much for what they're getting or not getting, then they'll ditch. They're not going to stick around if they feel think they won't get what they want from the person in the future. Many like to keep their options open, though and will revisit past potential mates when things aren't going well with someone they're pursuing. Sometimes, they keep the lines open just to kill time until they find the next person they want to date or pretend date until they find someone they will want to make it work for. I had the audacity to think I was someone who was worth the time, but not the case. I was a bit daft.

 

[Artemisia]

Many like to keep their options open, though and will revisit past potential mates when things aren't going well with someone they're pursuing. Sometimes, they keep the lines open just to kill time until they find the next person they want to date or pretend date until they find someone they will want to make it work for. I had the audacity to think I was someone who was worth the time, but not the case. I was a bit daft.

Yeah, they like to keep backup options. I can't tell you how many times I've had guy friends who were in relationships or married start flirting with me when they were hitting a rough patch. Recently one such married friend (who would supposedly never cheat) wanted to take me on a weekend trip to the Greek islands.....just the two of us!
The thing is that most people lack morals or don't know what their values are. It is one thing to leave a relationship that is not working out and an entirely different thing to search for others on the side when the going gets tough. Most people don't realize that they need to work on themselves.

 

[the]

I think everyone plays games. Generally, (and subconsciously) I think men want to gauge your level of interest.

If they’re interested and they want you, they’ll come on strong in the beginning, say sweet things and act over the top interested (because in that time and space, they are, because hormones), but really, they want to measure your level of interest back.

If you respond with the same level of interest or more, he knows he has you. If you respond back with a lower level of interest, he knows he needs to work harder to get you.

The harder he has to work to be with you, and the more of a challenge you are, will raise your quality level in his eyes. It means you're valuable, and as such, provide value to his life.

After the whole, push/pull, chase me/catch me ritual, you either decide you want to commit or not.

At this point, guys either freak out, fear losing their freedom, and back out. Or, fear losing you and decide to commit.

*PS. I know my views of courtship are primitive, but I’m alright with that.

I agree but not with the part about the harder he works the more valuable you are. If a guy has to work too hard then eventually its not worth it.

 

[Gaze]

I think everyone plays games. Generally, (and subconsciously) I think men want to gauge your level of interest.

If they’re interested and they want you, they’ll come on strong in the beginning, say sweet things and act over the top interested (because in that time and space, they are, because hormones), but really, they want to measure your level of interest back.

If you respond with the same level of interest or more, he knows he has you. If you respond back with a lower level of interest, he knows he needs to work harder to get you.

The harder he has to work to be with you, and the more of a challenge you are, will raise your quality level in his eyes. It means you're valuable, and as such, provide value to his life.

After the whole, push/pull, chase me/catch me ritual, you either decide you want to commit or not.

At this point, guys either freak out, fear losing their freedom, and back out. Or, fear losing you and decide to commit.

*PS. I know my views of courtship are primitive, but I’m alright with that.

I agree but not with the part about the harder he works the more valuable you are. If a guy has to work too hard then eventually its not worth it.

Neither should you have to work so hard that you're the only one is putting in the effort just to prove you are "worthy." That working hard bit is more often just an excuse for one person to play coy or innocent, pretending to be hard to get, making you think you have a real chance if they work harder, only to drop you later on. Some simply have unrealistic or overly high standards they want some ideal mate to meet, and then leave them after all the so called work their partner invested.

In many cases, this person who needed you to work hard to prove yourself to them, will move on to someone else, someone who in many cases didn't work that hard for their interest, and who, oddly, they later married . This is story is on auto-dial. So, this entire argument about how hard they have to work to get you is nonsense. Someone who is open and interested shouldn't be treated as less worthy or valuable. Now, that's game playing.

At this stage, late 30s-early 40s, many are looking to settle down, so it utterly ridiculous to play hard to get. I don't see the logic or reasoning, and if someone plays that, ain't gonna work. See ya! Even more BS? Ever hear the one about, if you're treated like this by someone, then "you let it happen to you." If I had a million dollars for every time I heard someone say that, I'd be taking you all to Hawaii . . . or Fiji. Haven't decided which yet.

 

[Artemisia]

Does a man who has a full life, hobbies, is devoted to his career etc. even have time and energy to play the push/pull game? I mean it sounds like something someone would do when he is a) insecure and not aware of his values or b) doesn't have much interest in other things in his life. Same thing for a woman whose sole goal in life is to find a husband and have children.

 

[Scientia]

I think the chase, back off, chase thing is just human nature. When you can do it comfortably with skill and trust, that's when you found a match. Otherwise, if you feel that you are making too much of an effort to be whatever he wants or he is too much up in your business and annoys you, then move on. If it's not right, it's not right.

I have always thought that it shouldn't feel like a game if the other one is playing by the same rules. It should be more pleasure than angst. Otherwise, it's not fun or sexy and who wants that?

 

[Gaze]

Does a man who has a full life, hobbies, is devoted to his career etc. even have time and energy to play the push/pull game? I mean it sounds like something someone would do when he is a) insecure and not aware of his values or b) doesn't have much interest in other things in his life. Same thing for a woman whose sole goal in life is to find a husband and have children.

What if the woman finds being a wife and mother fulfilling? Why should she have to want something else to prove herself independent? As a woman, you choose what defines you. I honestly don't want my career to define me. I'd rather be defined by the things that are important to me. Of course, if someone is told their worth is only as a wife and mother, and nothing else, then that's different. If you're defining yourself by what others want for you, rather than what you want for yourself, that's usually where the conflict lies. But someone defining themselves by their family has every right to make this their life if that's what they want and they aren't seen or treated as less because of it.

 

[bolognamacaroni]

I agree but not with the part about the harder he works the more valuable you are. If a guy has to work too hard then eventually its not worth it.

If they think the effort is too much for what they're getting or not getting, then they'll ditch. They're not going to stick around if they feel think they won't get what they want from the person in the future.

Oh, exactly. I wasn't trying to say act unattainable. I was really just trying to express playing hard to get or not being too easy, which someone expressed better when they said acting coy or shy (which, may have been you, Gist).

Many like to keep their options open, though and will revisit past potential mates when things aren't going well with someone they're pursuing. Sometimes, they keep the lines open just to kill time until they find the next person they want to date or pretend date until they find someone they will want to make it work for.

Omg, yes. Keeping options open. This is literally the stupidest game there is.

Like, you sat me on your back burner, and now you want to commit? No, thank you.

But really, I think this is more about them not knowing what they want, than them purposely trying to be a dick.

 

[Artemisia]

What if the woman finds being a wife and mother fulfilling? Why should she have to want something else to prove herself independent? As a woman, you choose what defines you. I honestly don't want my career to define me. I'd rather be defined by the things that are important to me. Of course, if someone is told their worth is only as a wife and mother, and nothing else, then that's different. If you're defining yourself by what others want for you, rather than what you want for yourself, that's usually where the conflict lies. But someone defining themselves by their family has every right to make this their life if that's what they want and they aren't seen or treated as less because of it.

There is nothing wrong with it but I doubt it is the only interest one has in life. I mean you have hobbies too, right?

 

[Gaze]

There is nothing wrong with it but I doubt it is the only interest one has in life. I mean you have hobbies too, right?

Isn't that for the woman to decide? Your wording suggests that if a woman puts all her energy in her family, then she is less of a person or "that's all she is?". You may feel limited by that position, but maybe she is not. Whether or she has hobbies is something, the individual woman defines for herself. Again, it's her choice, what makes her happy. To imply that making her family her happiness is someone less than she could be is a demeaning. It indicates that she should automatically see herself as being inadequate if that's all she is interested in. Again, doesn't she get to decide what she wants to be happy doing?

 

[aeon]

Many like to keep their options open, though and will revisit past potential mates when things aren't going well with someone they're pursuing. Sometimes, they keep the lines open just to kill time until they find the next person they want to date or pretend date until they find someone they will want to make it work for.

Yeah, they like to keep backup options. I can't tell you how many times I've had guy friends who were in relationships or married start flirting with me when they were hitting a rough patch...The thing is that most people lack morals or don't know what their values are. It is one thing to leave a relationship that is not working out and an entirely different thing to search for others on the side when the going gets tough.

I’ve never done that and I never will. I’m not wired that way, and, it’s totally incompatible with my understanding of what a human being is, and who I am.
For me, those behaviors would constitute a profound disrespect toward another and myself. It would be abhorrent.

People aren’t options. Nor is anyone here to keep me idly entertained.

I do understand that my values and sense of what is right and wrong (for me) in this regard contributes to my experience of loneliness, and it is profound.

I accept that, and I do the best I am able.


Cheers,
Ian

 

[bolognamacaroni]

I’ve never done that and I never will. I’m not wired that way, and, it’s totally incompatible with my understanding of what a human being is, and who I am.
For me, those behaviors would constitute a profound disrespect toward another and myself. It would be abhorrent.

People aren’t options. Nor is anyone here to keep me idly entertained.

I do understand that my values and sense of what is right and wrong (for me) in this regard contributes to my experience of loneliness, and it is profound.

I accept that, and I do the best I am able.


Cheers,
Ian

We're generalizing. Of course there are exceptions.

To be honest though, I find this a very subconscious event. I've had guys genuinely feel unsure about committing to a relationship, I wasn't comfortable where we were at, so we stopped dating. I'm a once it's over, it's over type of person.

These guys have subconsciously wanted to remain friends, to stay close, so if they do decide they want something serious, and we're still friends, maybe there's the possibility of rekindling what was there.

 

[Asa]

I think there are so many options, and more potential partners available today, so people don't stick around long if they're not getting the response, encouragement, or interest they desire. People usually will only give time and attention, in today's world, to something they feel offers them something they don't have to work too hard for. If they think the effort is too much for what they're getting or not getting, then they'll ditch. They're not going to stick around if they feel think they won't get what they want from the person in the future. Many like to keep their options open, though and will revisit past potential mates when things aren't going well with someone they're pursuing. Sometimes, they keep the lines open just to kill time until they find the next person they want to date or pretend date until they find someone they will want to make it work for. I had the audacity to think I was someone who was worth the time, but not the case. I was a bit daft.

I agree. And (IMO) This is bad news for INFJs, who are hard to get to know and confuse people.

It is naive and unrealistic to think any deep, important relationship would not take time to build and some "work". People say they want something profound, a deep connection, a soulmate, but if they can't get that right away, they ditch.

In the past 2.5 years, a fellow INFJ friend has been ghosted by 9 out of ten men she has dated, then the 10th said he wasn't looking for a relationship after a few months of dating, when things turned serious.
From observation, I do think there is a trend where men pretend to be looking for a relationship with long-term depth and then just drop the woman after he has persuaded her to open up and get attached. This happened all the time to my friends and I hate it. Just be up front if you don't want a relationship. Don't lie.

 

[Gaze]

From observation, I do think there is a trend where men pretend to be looking for a relationship with long-term depth and then just drop the woman after he has persuaded her to open up and get attached. This happened all the time to my friends and I hate it. Just be up front if you don't want a relationship. Don't lie.

Yes, this especially makes potential partner afraid to open up, because they fear they're let down their guard, and develop a connection, only to have that person suddenly leave because they can't handle it. I think it's why many are so afraid of getting involved in any kind of relationship, much less dating. They fear the next person is just going to use them emotionally and physically, get what they need, and then move on.

 

[Night Owl]

I agree. And (IMO) This is bad news for INFJs, who are hard to get to know and confuse people.

It is naive and unrealistic to think any deep, important relationship would not take time to build and some "work". People say they want something profound, a deep connection, a soulmate, but if they can't get that right away, they ditch.

In the past 2.5 years, a fellow INFJ friend has been ghosted by 9 out of ten men she has dated, then the 10th said he wasn't looking for a relationship after a few months of dating, when things turned serious.
From observation, I do think there is a trend where men pretend to be looking for a relationship with long-term depth and then just drop the woman after he has persuaded her to open up and get attached. This happened all the time to my friends and I hate it. Just be up front if you don't want a relationship. Don't lie.

I think there may be a solution to this problem, but it requires a little bit of gusto, few will be willing, and possibly involves acting (but we all know you ladies can do that to a tee!). On the first date, with eagerness in her expression, the female ought to say: "Are you open to marriage? And how many children would you be willing to have?" Add the phrase: "with me" to both questions if you want to remain single for the next 45 years. To the former two questions, without the phrase "with me", 99% of men will run for the hills, 0.25% will be delighted at such a question and will propose then and there - at which point she ought to run for the hills, and 0.75% of men, are those who have survived and were willing to endure the questionnaire of fire, and are clearly willing and serious about having a relationship. At least one doesn't have to bother with tit-tatting in the meantime only to get burnt days/weeks/months later, as those who aren't serious will be climbing Mt. Everest in escape as soon as the first date is done. Yet if one employs this method one ought to expect a high date turn over rate. Lol.

 

[Artemisia]

In the past 2.5 years, a fellow INFJ friend has been ghosted by 9 out of ten men she has dated, then the 10th said he wasn't looking for a relationship after a few months of dating, when things turned serious.
From observation, I do think there is a trend where men pretend to be looking for a relationship with long-term depth and then just drop the woman after he has persuaded her to open up and get attached. This happened all the time to my friends and I hate it. Just be up front if you don't want a relationship. Don't lie.

There are a lot of people with mental illnesses and narcissism out there today. These same guys who leave relationships once they have to put work in probably realize that they can't deliver. A lot of them are narcissistic and/or have low self-esteem. The fact that a lot of women these days outperform men in every aspect except physical strength has a lot of men subconsciously worried. That is why the best way to go about the whole thing, I feel, is to focus on loving and improving yourself and expect that a man will not be forever.

As my former MA advisor said "Artemisia, tenure is forever; marriage isn't."

 

[Artemisia]

I think there may be a solution to this problem, but it requires a little bit of gusto, few will be willing, and possibly involves acting (but we all know you ladies can do that to a tee!). On the first date, with eagerness in her expression, the female ought to say: "Are you open to marriage? And how many children would you be willing to have?" Add the phrase: "with me" to both questions if you want to remain single for the next 45 years. To the former two questions, without the phrase "with me", 99% of men will run for the hills, 0.25% will be delighted at such a question and will propose then and there - at which point she ought to run for the hills, and 0.75% of men, are those who have survived and were willing to endure the questionnaire of fire, and are clearly willing and serious about having a relationship. At least one doesn't have to bother with tit-tatting in the meantime only to get burnt days/weeks/months later, as those who aren't serious will be climbing Mt. Everest in escape as soon as the first date is done. Yet if one employs this method one ought to expect a high date turn over rate. Lol.

Last year I had a guy who said he wanted marriage and kids with me on our second date! He had even chosen the name of our son. A common acquaintance had dated him 6 years earlier and told me that he was feeding her the same exact bullshit word for word down to the name of the son. This guy was a future faker. Once he realized he had you he'd bolt (and then come back two months later). Oh, and did I mention several members of his family had schizophrenia? He was just really good at hiding his own in the dating stage.

 

[Night Owl]

Last year I had a guy who said he wanted marriage and kids with me on our second date! He had even chosen the name of our son. A common acquaintance had dated him 6 years earlier and told me that he was feeding her the same exact bullshit word for word down to the name of the son. This guy was a future faker. Once he realized he had you he'd bolt (and then come back two months later). Oh, and did I mention several members of his family had schizophrenia? He was just really good at hiding his own in the dating stage.

Crikey. (I ought to have adjusted my percentages for deceivers). I can only imagine you dashed for the hills! I think such deceptiveness is probably fairly common on both sides, yet men do it for different motives. In the case of deceptive men (especially with women in their 30's or who are single mums) they'll say whatever the other party wants and is looking for in order to get what they want, which is often free sex, a place to live and/or some money. The term moocher is one of which that comes to mind.

Edit: Ok, I just realised probably some women seek the same things through deception!

 

[Pyrrhula]

In many cases, this person who needed you to work hard to prove yourself to them, will move on to someone else, someone who in many cases didn't work that hard for their interest, and who, oddly, they later married

Sometimes it's a case of incompatibility. Often times it's a case of not being ready to settle. There will come a time when a guy can't be bothered with the games anymore, or he's getting older and he doesn't have the options he once had. Timing is everything.

I'm dating an older guy at the moment and neither of us is playing games. We both want the same thing. I'm confident he likes me. It's refreshing. Maybe it's just because he's an ENFP! I've read that they can be full on!

 

[Artemisia]

Crikey. (I ought to have adjusted my percentages for deceivers). I can only imagine you dashed for the hills! I think such deceptiveness is probably fairly common on both sides, yet men do it for different motives. In the case of deceptive men (especially with women in their 30's or who are single mums) they'll say whatever the other party wants and is looking for in order to get what they want, which is often free sex, a place to live and/or some money. The term moocher is one of which that comes to mind.

Indeed. But what is interesting is that I never mentioned kids or marriage. And to be honest kids are not even my priority so I don't come across as someone with a ticking clock.

Lots of people with mental illnesses out there, and even more future fakers. I have a male cousin who is this type.....he is 40 years old, unmarried, and asked me to introduce him to women I know for one or two night stands. He is also the type who thinks he is amazing even though he is overweight and doesn't have any hobbies. Oh and he wants a younger, skinny woman who is beautiful and doesn't have children. My own cousin disgusts me but there are tons of men like him out there.