The Many Faces of INFJ

[VH]

I couldn't agree more with these responses.

You are saying that Fi user can't smile? maybe the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard. Every human being is capable of smiling and Fi types even moreso.

Not only is every human being capable of smiling, every human being uses Fi - and all of the other cognitive functions. However, smiling and emotions are not even part of cognition. Fi is a cognitive analysis function that draws heavily upon the emotional regions of the mind, but Fi is not emotion. I'm afraid the person who made the implication that Fi users don't emote through facial expression simply doesn't understand cognitive function theory.

I know many IxFP's who are experts at expressing their feelings through facial expressions.

Fe overtakes me all the time and I'm an INFJ. Extraverted feeling is very easily spotted because it shines trough xxFJ's face and reactions.

Indeed. All F types are experts at expressing their feelings through facial expressions, body language, tone of voice etc. because we are F types. More often than not, we're not even aware that we are doing so. It's just who we are.

Ni isn't constantly checking anything, it's Ne here you are describing. Ne is extroverted perceiving function.

Agreed. Ni isn't capable of constantly checking anything. It's the most subconscious of the functions and operates automatically. Ne is the conscious version of intuition.

It's becoming more and more clear that this person is writing from a very egocentric perspective as an INTP.

That is just pure anger wich has nothing to do with type. But it's expressed very spontaneously and without a any sensible reason. (FP)

Agreed.

Come on.. The whole essence of Bjork yells Fi. She is maybe the best stereotype of cuddly INFP. Her singing comes through dominant introverted feeling, you can just hear how she is in touch with her emotions when she sings, every nuance and tone comes through that flame. While she is expressing the inner turmoil of her emotions with her Fi she does it in abstract way using Ne to produce this schizophrenic music. Bjorks music is also very annoying and most of the INFP's have the ability to drive me crazy.

If anyone argues that Bjork is not an NFP, they just don't understand Jungian archetypes.

 

[Adymus]

You are saying that Fi user can't smile? maybe the most ridiculous argument
I've ever heard. Every humanbeing is capable of smiling and Fi types even moreso.
I know many IxFP's who are very comfy at expressing their feelings through facial
expressions.

Wait, what? Okay, I really didn't expect you to jump to that conclusion. Okay there seems to be a misunderstanding of what I meant when I said "Fe is meant to send a message." Firstly, that face Bjork made there was not a smile it was more like a weird grimace, but that isn't important. Expressions made by both Fe and Fi do send a message, however, only Fe is consciously sending a message intentionally. Fe is essentially aimed emotional expression, and is done to intentionally let the person know how you feel about something, or to let them know how they should feel about something. It can send messages of approval, or even disapproval.

Fi technically does have expressions that let Fe users who are reading the emotion, know what they are feeling. The difference is they are not aware that they are doing it, it is not "aimed" and intentional as it is for the Fe user. The expressions that Fi users make actually do look different, and move differently because of the fact that they are actually feeling it, and not purposely communicating.

Fe overtakes me all the time and I'm an INFJ. Extraverted feeling is very easily
spotted because it shines trough xxFJ's face and reactions.

Sometimes it does, but it does not overtake you as readily as it would a dominant feeling type. Chances are it overtakes you far less often than you think it does, especially far less often than a dominant feeling type.

Finally you got it right, she is perceiver (P)

Perception first, as in Ni dom, noob.

Ni isn't constantly checking anything, It's Ne here you are describing. Ne is
extroverted pattern seeking perceiving function.

Yes it does. and Ne does not actually "check" anything either, it takes in a provides more information. Ne jumps to possible trends in the patterns, but it never tries to predict exactly where it is going like Ni.
Ni does actually check where things are going, that is why it is a directive function, not an adaptive one like Ne. Ni is what is telling you, "where are they going with this?", "How are they trying to move me?" This is why it is a future oriented perceiving function, it actually tries to leap to the next step.

That is just pure anger which has nothing to do with type. But it's expressed
very spontaneously and without a any sensible reason. (P)

There is no such thing as "pure anger" it always has a source, it always has a reason. and It has everything to do with type. Spontaneousness does not indicate the person is a P, but it might indicate that they are using a spontaneous function, such as Se.

EDIT: sorry for the critisism, your theory was very entertaining but some of the
typings were a bit off.

Don't Apologize, I will not hold back on you, and I expect you to do the same.

 

[Adymus]

Agreed. Ni isn't capable of constantly checking anything. It's the most subconscious of the functions and operates automatically. Ne is the conscious version of intuition.

It's becoming more and more clear that this person is writing from a very egocentric perspective as an INTP.

That is completely absurd, by that logic, Ni doms are incapable of using their Ni for any intentional tasks, like long rang planning, Perspective shifting, and theorizing. Here, I'll even give you an example of a conscious use of Ni that I nicked from an INFJ on this forum:

"I question things a lot. I see how they compare to the internal framework I have built, and I love doing that."

You are doing this as you are reading my post. You are comparing what I am claiming to your Ni model of how cognitive functions work. This is not being ego centric, It's just right, Ni is no more or less conscious than any other function you could have had in your top four.

If anyone argues that Bjork is not an NFP, they just don't understand Jungian archetypes.

What are you talking about?

Jungian Archetypes are not the same thing as personality types.

 

[futuresound7]

Fe is consciously sending a message intentionally. Fe is essentially aimed emotional expression, and is done to intentionally let the person know how you feel about something, or to let them know how they should feel about something. It can send messages of approval, or even disapproval.

You are describing Fe from xxTP's point of view, I don't use it as a toy to send
a message or to get what I want. Feelings aren't consciously formed. I can
use it like that but rarely do, usually it shows itself by itself and isn't as intentional
as you are indicating here. If I feel something my face unintentionally
shows it and it's true reflection of my feelings. Sometimes I do control it, but that
is not what I'm constantly trying to do. It's more Ti > Fe you are describing
than Fe > Ti.

Perception first, as in Ni dom, noob.

If you are so sure it's perception first then ENFP would be closer. I still believe
she's an INFP. Don't get so offensive, I'm not trying to make you look bad, I just
disagree about bjork's type.

Yes it does. and Ne does not actually "check" anything either, it takes in a provides more information. Ne jumps to possible trends in the patterns, but it never tries to predict exactly where it is going like Ni.
Ni does actually check where things are going, that is why it is a directive function, not an adaptive one like Ne. Ni is what is telling you, "where are they going with this?", "How are they trying to move me?" This is why it is a future oriented perceiving function, it actually tries to leap to the next step.

Ne is able to quickly conclude where certain signs are leading, It's good at making
connections, especially when the sign is as obvious as in the interview. Heck
even ISTJ would have been able to figure out that the interviewer is talking
about the specific violent incident and where that would lead.

There is no such thing as "pure anger" it always has a source, it always has a reason. and It has everything to do with type. Spontaneousness does not indicate the person is a P, but it might indicate that they are using a spontaneous function, such as Se.

Okay it takes littlebit more effort than that for INFJ to reach Se. Bjork's attack
was so mindless that any J would have thought twice before spontaneously
stricking like crazy. Well anger is a different matter and anyone could act like her
when pushed far enough, I don't know the background of the scene well enough
to make any conclusion about that.

Don't Apologize, I will not hold back on you, and I expect you to do the same.

Yup. Friends ha ? : )

 

[Adymus]

You are describing Fe from xxTP's point of view, I don't use it as a toy to send
a message or to get what I want. Feelings aren't consciously formed. I can
use it like that but rarely do, usually it shows itself by itself and isn't as intentional
as you are indicating here. If I feel something my face unintentionally
shows it and it's true reflection of my feelings. Sometimes I do control it, but that
is not what I'm constantly trying to do. It's more Ti > Fe you are describing
than Fe > Ti.

Hang on now, you not being very conscious of your Fe use does not mean that is actually being used to purposefully send messages to people. That is why an Fe dominant is J, Fe is actually a Directive function, it is used to move through the structuralist social dynamics of human societies. Being conscious of something does not mean you have to think about it every time you do it. See, I am conscious of my breathing back that does not mean I have to remember to breathe or die.Fe is not very high on my priorities, and it does not take as much space in my psyche, but other than that, it still functions the same way. It still reads social dynamics, get's pushed back from social dynamics in the form of actually feeling them, and then pushes back. I'm not wrong about this, you already said that you are conscious of the messages you are sending with it, that right there proves my point.

If you are so sure it's perception first then ENFP would be closer. I still believe
she's an INFP. Don't get so offensive, I'm not trying to make you look bad, I just
disagree about bjork's type.

No it wouldn't, Ni and Ne are both perception functions. You can believe what ever you want, but my position stands.

Ne is able to quickly conclude where certain signs are leading, It's good at making
connections, especially when the sign is as obvious as in the interview. Heck
even ISTJ would have been able to figure out that the interviewer is talking
about the specific violent incident and where that would lead.

Sort of, but something needs to be clarified: Ne does not draw conclusions at all, it merely sees possibilities. While this is in a way tracking a trend, it jumps to the next possible step, which is not necessarily even based in time. The main difference here is Ni is a directed prediction, and Ne is a divergences of possibilities. This is why Ni doms are way better at predicting the future than we Ne users are. Ne is not looking for the answer like Ni does, it looks for the possibilities.

Okay it takes littlebit more effort than that for INFJ to reach Se. Bjork's attack
was so mindless that any J would have thought twice before spontaneously
stricking like crazy. Well anger is a different matter and anyone could act like her
when pushed far enough, I don't know the background of the scene well enough
to make any conclusion about that.

Hmmm, okay you seem to have a misunderstanding of how our cognitive functions work. You don't actually have to focus on Se to activate it, it does it automatically. Think of it as a defense mechanism; as an Ni dom you are most energized by being in your Ni, but being in your Ni pulls you out of your Se. Now of you were just constantly now if you actually had to forcefully get you back into the now, you would all be dead. A lion would have ate you, or you would have driven off of a cliff, or hit by a car, something like that. This is why Se activates automatically to pull you out of your Ni when it pops up. For instance, if you were off in your Ni world right now, and I clapped in your face, and yelled "WAKE UP!", or a phone rings, or someone knocks on the door, you would be pulled right out of it and probably lose your train of thought that you had peculating. You would also be pretty pissed off.

Yup. Friends ha ? : )

Sure, I'd like that, but I'm no pushover, and my understanding is solid. I intend to share this understanding, so make no mistake, I will fight when it is attack. It is fully functioning a complete model I am working from, and I can and will articulate any part of it when necessary. This is not random Ne babble like your prejudice of Ne users seems to suggest it is,

 

[VH]

This is not random Ne babble like your prejudice of Ne users seems to suggest it is,

Yes it is.

View attachment 2778

 

[Adymus]

Resorting to ad hominems and stereotypes are we? I never knew you INFJ folk were so civilized. See Noble, if cannot back up your nonsense, then nonsense it remains.

 

[VH]

Resorting to ad hominems and stereotypes are we? I never knew you INFJ folk were so civilized. See Noble, if cannot back up your nonsense, then nonsense it remains.

I'm resorting to making a joke to point out how ridiculous you sound using that classic INTP "If I can win a debate then obviously I am correct" Socratic approach to altering reality via opinion, then trolling anyone who dares to oppose your outlandish opinions. If you had any idea how ludicrous you appear in doing this, how utterly characteristic, you'd have realized that by doing so you've invalidated yourself as capable of intelligent discourse. But, please continue to prove my stereotypical view of your behavior by turning this into yet another debate point in a constantly derailing argument that has no purpose or focus other than to be a self sustaining intellectual sparring match.

 

[IndigoSensor]

I am going to say this much more. More then one of us is disagreeing with you. If a mass of people has a general consensus, then it is usually correct to some degree. You are very diffucult to speak to. This is why the majority of us are responding in similar ways.

 

[Adymus]

I am going to say this much more. More then one of us is disagreeing with you. If a mass of people has a general consensus, then it is usually correct to some degree. You are very diffucult to speak to. This is why the majority of us are responding in similar ways.

I'm afraid not, if that were true then the world would be flat, the sun would have revolved around the earth, and dinosaur bones would not exist.

It is actually not true that most people are disagreeing with me, most people are resonating with my OP. They are disagreeing with the model I am working behind it, although I should say that if I can accurately predict these different mindsets of INFJ, maybe I am on to something?

As for the Ti, deal with it. I find it laughable that Noble would say that the Academic is the standard when even he flinches at a little Ti. Do you have any idea how much Si I had to output to write this? A boat load, let's leave it at that.

 

[Barnabas]

As for the Ti, deal with it. I find it laughable that Noble would say that the Academic is the standard when even he flinches at a little Ti. Do you have any idea how much Si I had to output to write this? A boat load, let's leave it at that.

Be wary of what lines you cross, regardless of your position or it's correctness. Without tact you'll find yourself fighting walls, walls that will eventualy box you in.

 

[IndigoSensor]

I'm afraid not, if that were true then the world would be flat, the sun would have revolved around the earth, and dinosaur bones would not exist.

That's just one example. I said usually, not always.

It is actually not true that most people are disagreeing with me, most people are resonating with my OP. They are disagreeing with the model I am working behind it, although I should say that if I can accurately predict these different mindsets of INFJ, maybe I am on to something?

Most of the people disagreeing with you have not come out of the woodwork; doubt they will. If you don't believe me then fine. I don't think you are really accurately predicting the mindsets of INFJs either. Although those of us who have dissagreed with you have just been shot down, and will just continue to be shot down.

As for the Ti, deal with it. I find it laughable that Noble would say that the Academic is the standard when even he flinches at a little Ti. Do you have any idea how much Si I had to output to write this? A boat load, let's leave it at that.

And the majority of us are struggling to put together Ti to work with you. I also agree with what Nobel said.


As noble said you are being incorrigible. No matter what ANY of us say, it it will not be up to snuff for what you want. This indeed is classic INTP (you aren't the first). I said this above already, but there are more then just us thinking this.

 

[Adymus]

I'm resorting to making a joke to point out how ridiculous you sound using that classic INTP "If I can win a debate then obviously I am correct" Socratic approach to altering reality via opinion, then trolling anyone who dares to oppose your outlandish opinions. If you had any idea how ludicrous you appear in doing this, how utterly characteristic, you'd have realized that by doing so you've invalidated yourself as capable of intelligent discourse. But, please continue to prove my stereotypical view of your behavior by turning this into yet another debate point in a constantly derailing argument that has no purpose or focus other than to be a self sustaining intellectual sparring match.

Do you know why I chose to honor the INFJ by making this post? It was not only because I really do think they are the most misunderstood. But because I wanted people to be aware of how truly amazing they are when they overcome their weakness and have well developed functions. My Mentor was an INFJ, and the Ti I used on him was the exact same Ti I am using on you. And you know what? He didn't stone wall me, he didn't whine about how incorrigible I am, he matched met my Ti he his own Ti tight model, and gained my respect, as well as a student.
The problem does not lie with my request for a logically consistent response and discussion, it lies with your inability to adapt to the situation.
The fact that you lack the confidence to show me your own Ti, is your weakness, not mine.

You can say I am being a stereotypical INTP all you like, that's fine, you might even be right. But at least I am not being weak.

 

[Barnabas]

Do you know why I chose to honor the INFJ by making this post? It was not only because I really do think they are the most misunderstood. But because I wanted people to be aware of how truly amazing they are when they overcome their weakness and have well developed functions. My Mentor was an INFJ, and the Ti I used on him was the exact same Ti I am using on you. And you know what? He didn't stone wall me, he didn't whine about how incorrigible I am, he matched met my Ti he his own Ti tight model, and gained my respect, as well as a student.
The problem does not lie with my request for a logically consistent response and discussion, it lies with your inability to adapt to the situation.
The fact that you lack the confidence to show me your own Ti, is your weakness, not mine.

You can say I am being a stereotypical INTP all you like, that's fine, you might even be right. But at least I am not being weak.

You ask for others to adapt to you, but think nothing of adapting to others. How can you not see your own fault in this, we are not your mentors nor your students and have no need to meet you on your ground. But yet those who have engaged you to seek to meet you halfway, yet you plod on with the notion that we must rise to you.

If you know half as much as you claim then you must understand that your not going to gain ground by acting how you are. I ask you again change your direction less you find yourself lost with no chance of return.

 

[Adymus]

You ask for others to adapt to you, but think nothing of adapting to others. How can you not see your own fault in this, we are not your mentors nor your students and have no need to meet you on your ground. But yet those who have engaged you to seek to meet you halfway, yet you plod on with the notion that we must rise to you.

If you know half as much as you claim then you must understand that your not going to gain ground by acting how you are. I ask you again change your direction less you find yourself lost with no chance of return.

Barnabas, I appreciate the sentiment. But the only way I could really "adapt" that would make everyone happy would be to ignore my criticism entirely. I can do that if you would prefer it.

I am actually the one putting myself out here, I am not completely giving up everyone and declaring people incapable of understanding me. I'm trying to meet you all half-way, I really am. But that does not happen when your only response is an insult.

 

[Auburn]

Adymus, the hostility that has been shown against you on this forum is entirely self-inflicted due to your lack of understanding [and I mean understanding in the emotional sense, not theoretical or observational sense] of Fe. If you had that understanding you would have perception keen enough to discern what type of reactions your words would yield and you would not be surprised at the reactions you are getting, but you are, which shows you failed to accurately assess the situation.

Fe is very conscious of every gesture and implication behind every word others speak, and those spoken by itself (or at least is continually seeks to be, and by consequence becomes incredibly good at it over time). This would be the key for you to be able to discuss these things correctly with this forum but you are adamant on remaining within the realms of Ti+Si logic. What I mean to say is, if your intention truly is to provide a higher understanding and encourage growth in these INFJs, then you haven't the first clue on how to do so. ^^;

You talk about growth and development of functions but yet you fail to develop your own Fe to the point where it can provide the necessary haven in which to discuss these matters in a way that can lead to mutual understanding and therefore the development of others. And furthermore you are blind to the damage/irritation you might be causing because of that very lack of development.

Look dude, I have to agree with Barnabas here in that you're not at all meeting halfway. There is actually a good amount of Ti meeting your own Ti, but you are not only using Ti but a rather powerful combination of Ti+Si. Even most INTPs on INTPforum can't match your level of Ti+Si, and I only recall one instance where Cegorach managed to overpower it (but had to use a slew of resources/links as well as a good amount of reasoning).

What I am suggesting is that just because these INFJs, or even other INTPs, are unable to meet/match/surpass your Ti+Si paradigm/logic it doesn't mean it's true. The only thing it proves is that it remains the most sound reasoning[not reality] given the information presented. But there is always more information we are unaware of [such as in the case with Cegorach] that could drastically change our perception. It's just that you come across [whether you see yourself coming across as this or not] as close-minded, as if saying "this is my idea. is there a better idea out there? no? anyone? ok.. then my way it is".

I agree with Noble that winning a debate/argument does not make one's pov empirical but again simply the most plausible given the information presented [and even that's a major stretch/oversimplification].

And I say this as someone who respects your opinion, and you as well. Er.. I guess this post has a bit of frustration within it, lol. You have such a well developed Si, but your Fe could use a bit of nurture don'tchathink? > > But I might just be saying that because I'm an INTP with well developed Fe...

 

[Adymus]

Auburn, you're right. Although for the record the hostility shown against me began before I resisted any of it. My lack of etiquette was not because of my lack of understanding of how it will be received, but because it was not shown to me first. I am referring specifically to Noble in this, no one else. If he is going to show me no respect by insulting my intelligence in the first post he makes, then he deserves no show of tact.

 

[IndigoSensor]

Auburn said pretty much what I wanted to say, but was not able to articulate. For that, I bow to you . Spot on.

I will also add this, your initial post did not have any hostility to it. However, it did lack quite a lot of understanding (emotional) and was received with hostility for the exact reasons that auburn explained.

You are right though, noble did come off nasty right away (sorry noble).

 

[arbygil]

I think this whole thread is a breakdown of communication on both sides. Adymus, it's okay for people to disagree. Disagreement with a theory is not tantamount to disagreeing with you personally - it's not the same thing. We are not our theories.

And sometimes we all need to be a bit more clear in our discussions with one another. I can see, Adymus, that you're trying to bring a new point to the board, and it's an interesting perspective. But it's probably not 100% right, or it would be in the next "Best Fit Type" or Jungian psychology textbook. Sometimes it's okay to see another person's POV; even if you don't agree with them 100%, it's okay to listen - or rather, it's okay to agree to disagree.

(And I wrote this before Auburn's intro, which, is quite spot on, agreed!).

It comes to this: We're all different and we might not all agree, but that's okay. In the long run we can still learn from each other.

 

[Adymus]

I think this whole thread is a breakdown of communication on both sides. Adymus, it's okay for people to disagree. Disagreement with a theory is not tantamount to disagreeing with you personally - it's not the same thing. We are not our theories.

And sometimes we all need to be a bit more clear in our discussions with one another. I can see, Adymus, that you're trying to bring a new point to the board, and it's an interesting perspective. But it's probably not 100% right, or it would be in the next "Best Fit Type" or Jungian psychology textbook. Sometimes it's okay to see another person's POV; even if you don't agree with them 100%, it's okay to listen - or rather, it's okay to agree to disagree.

(And I wrote this before Auburn's intro, which, is quite spot on, agreed!).

It comes to this: We're all different and we might not all agree, but that's okay. In the long run we can still learn from each other.

Sure, of course we aren't. But I guess my issue is this: Am I wrong for choosing to defend my theories?
I mean, can we really say that a discussion between two points of view is not listening? If each point is being considered and not entirely ignored that is.

But it's probably not 100% right, or it would be in the next "Best Fit Type" or Jungian psychology textbook.

Well, this was written more for entertainment more than education, even though there is still truth to it. Although Jungian psychology is an incomplete theory, and there is really inherently nothing wrong with attempting to completely it. Or at least further it.