The Many Faces of INFJ

Adymus said:
Sure, of course we aren't. But I guess my issue is this: Am I wrong for choosing to defend my theories?
I mean, can we really say that a discussion between two points of view is not listening? If each point is being considered and not entirely ignored that is.
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Everyone has a right to defend his or her theories, sure. But sometimes you have to know your audience in order to defend it. You wouldn't defend your PhD in a way that would annoy the thesis committee, because you'd be in danger of losing your degree. It's okay to be yourself - I'm not saying not to. But you're in danger of losing your message because you're presenting to a unique committee of peers who are already skeptical.

Well, this was written more for entertainment more than education, even though there is still truth to it. Although Jungian psychology is an incomplete theory, and there is really inherently nothing wrong with attempting to completely it. Or at least further it.
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True, all theories are incomplete until they're proven as fact. But do we have the absolute power to judge our theory as the only complete answer? I don't think so. Even seasoned PhD psychologists of type theory argue, and they all only see parts of the possibilities.
 
arbygil said:
Everyone has a right to defend his or her theories, sure. But sometimes you have to know your audience in order to defend it. You wouldn't defend your PhD in a way that would annoy the thesis committee, because you'd be in danger of losing your degree. It's okay to be yourself - I'm not saying not to. But you're in danger of losing your message because you're presenting to a unique committee of peers who are already skeptical.



True, all theories are incomplete until they're proven as fact. But do we have the absolute power to judge our theory as the only complete answer? I don't think so. Even seasoned PhD psychologists of type theory argue, and they all only see parts of the possibilities.
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Well I never said anything I said was the complete answer, nor would I ever suggest that.

But you have made some fine points, so thank you for your patient response.
 
IndigoSensor said:
Auburn said pretty much what I wanted to say, but was not able to articulate. For that, I bow to you :smile:. Spot on.
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I wonder just how many precious insights INFJs never get an opportunity to voice. It seems INFJs struggle a lot in articulating themselves or externally justifying their views. Yet when they do manage it, I find their perspectives very insightful. And I suppose the more developed Ti they have, the more they'll be able to place words to their thoughts - but overall I think the key [for us xNTPs] is to simply be patient and withhold judgment. It would be unfair to dismiss someone's opinion just because they can't verbalize it. If something is nagging at them, causing them to reject a concept presented, then there must be a good reason for it - and it will become apparent what that reason is in time. Only then is it really fair to examine it and counter it, if needed, but not before then.

In the words of an INFJ friend:
It used to drive me absolutely demented when I had arguments with people who I now recognise were probably Ne-T types because I knew their logic was sound, but I felt they were missing something - you see within the INFJ's mind they see patterns which are more based on values and 'softer' issues which are just as important to us as 'truth' is to the INTP. So we can perceive the INTP as harsh and oppressive and worst of all to us - dismissive. Oh I can't tell you the pain that I felt when I struggled to vocalise my inner symbolic logic and it was so quickly dashed by the quick and incisive cold verbal logic of others.
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Oh my.. where were we? ^^; lol
I totally took a left turn somewhere didn't I..
 
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Once again you explained it so well, even more so what your friend said. I feel the EXACT same way. I have said this many times over Ne/Ti drives me absoultely batty in it's pure form; it can not be disarmed.

My Ti is developed only slightly (my Te is better then it though, so it isn't like I have no T), so it takes alot of strain for me to use it. Not to mention I prefer to use Te over it. As such when someone is overloaded with Ti I go nuts because nothing I can do will ever meet where it wants to be met at. So when something rubs me the wrong way strongly enough, and I can't get to it, I get rather frustrated. I rarely go after it unless I feel strongly about something. This thread here is actually a very rare event for me to act like this (ask others on the forum).
 
Indigo, I apologize for the way I was acting earlier.

And you expressed being put off by the cold Ti logic of the OP;
But please understand, Ti is not just something I can tone down, especially when discussing theory. Because the theory in my mind, as well as the rest of my inner world is built on mainly Ti and then Si. So it is kind of like asking an INFJ to tone down the Ni and start giving out more Se details. Giving Se without addressing the Ni model that is far above it seems pointless. And it's the same with giving Fe without addressing the Ti above it taking precedence.
 
No worries. I understand that you can't tone down Ti with something like this. As a parallel, I can't turn off my Ni with certain things. I have drove another member (Duty, also an INTP) absoulutly insane in the past because of my Ni, so now I really understand how he felt. I'm also at quite a fault here as well because I can not pull myself away from this when I know I should for more then just the apparent reason.

Basicly, you broke my boxes, and I VERY much like my boxes (I am an extremely strong judger), and I was not about to have any of that, so I got flustered :D.
 
The Academic sounded pretty right.

But I just wonder how reliable this data is.

*winks*
 
sdraguer said:
The Academic sounded pretty right.

But I just wonder how reliable this data is.

*winks*
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Well that all depends on what you are relying on it for.

I wouldn't recommend trying to place yourself in a specific sub-type, because like I said in the OP, there are really an infinite amount of ways an INFJ could manifest their use of their Cognitive functions. The examples of sub-types that I gave are not so much entire standalone personalities, but certain ways the INFJ cognitive function hierarchy is sometimes used in the world. They are not all common, they are barely even known, but they are used.

I don't make this stuff up, nature is far more imaginative than I am.

*winks*
 
Adymus said:
The problem does not lie with my request for a logically consistent response and discussion, it lies with your inability to adapt to the situation.
The fact that you lack the confidence to show me your own Ti, is your weakness, not mine.

You can say I am being a stereotypical INTP all you like, that's fine, you might even be right. But at least I am not being weak.
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balls

Adymus is right!

I love it when I meet someone who challenges me. It allows me the chance to grow. Either I change my mind, or they change theirs.

It is a good thing to see other perspectives...

dont just see it...

try and feel it, get into a different head space, just for a little bit

looking at something objectively

these are the basic things i thought bein INFJ was all about

sure we judge... but that doesnt mean that we should shut down or immediately reject something that we dont understand

Adymus has done a damn fine job here

I think he's got a lot of great insights

and he's a great writer

his text is lean and mean

we could learn a lot from this man

we can all learn a lot from the way we interact with people we disagree with

the people you disagree with usually end up being the greatest teachers
 
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i found this cool article on another forum and i couldn't find it here so i thought i would add it. original article here: http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=7016

Preface:
The INFJ personality type is by in large most misunderstood type. This is mainly do to the incompetence of MBTI implementation, by introducing personality types by a single description. Nobody was ever meant to match up perfectly to a single description. The MBTI descriptions are really only describing what the personality type will be like if they have only their top two functions developed. You see if a personality has well developed lower functions, or a well developed Tertiary and under developed Auxiliary, then they will contradict the description. The only real way to grasp a personality type is if you took a whole free range of many different models of said personality type, and let people swim around in it. But you can't really do that on the internet, or in a book now can you? This is why I advise you all to stop relying on matching people to internet descriptions, and start experiencing the Cognitive functions and personality types on your in, in the real world. To quote the great Carl Jung:

"Anyone who wants to know the human psyche will learn next to nothing from experimental psychology. He would be better advised to abandon exact science, put away his scholar's gown, bid farewell to his study, and wander with human heart through the world. There in the horrors of prisons, lunatic asylums and hospitals, in drab suburban pubs, in brothels and gambling-hells, in the salons of the elegant, the Stock Exchanges, socialist meetings, churches, revivalist gatherings and ecstatic sects, through love and hate, through the experience of passion in every form in his own body, he would reap richer stores of knowledge than text-books a foot thick could give him, and he will know how to doctor the sick with a real knowledge of the human soul." -Carl Jung


Now while just about every type is in some way misunderstood to the vast majority of the MBTI community, the INFJ in particular was hit the hardest. There is an interesting phenomenon with the INFJ that I am pointing out in this thread: Depending on how an INFJ has developed, they can express their use of cognitive functions in ways that are radically different than other INFJ. There are INFJ that seem like T's, or S's, INFJs that seem like Extroverts or even Ps. INFJs that want to go out and save the world, and then INFJs that just want to shit on everything. The purpose of this thread is to introduce you into the possible models that INFJs in the world can turn out to be. Some them good, some of them bad, some of them just plain weird. While I am splitting INFJs into sub-types in this thread, keep in mind that none of them are a single sub-type, some of these sub-types mark a single ability that every INFJ has access to. This thread only explores the possible forms one might take when they are using the Ni-Fe-Ti-Se apparatus.
Enjoy.


The Academic:

This kind of INFJ is more often than not, confused for an INTJ, or even INTP. They still want to change the world and progress man kind in some way, but sometimes you got to play by science
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The author of this article has already created a thread on this way back when:

[mods]Threads merged[/mods]
 
anyway i wanted to add a few things i saw in myself that this article mentioned

partly the cobra thing. in the past i have been this and like the article it has been for defensive purposes but when i get like this i am deadly and unstoppable. i don't think i can even stop myself when i get like this, because i start thinking about how the person who has hurt me can benefit by being taken apart and shown how they have been behaving. sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't work as people have a remarkable knack for convincing themselves of nonsense.

yes i probably can stare at a chair for a few hours and come away with new insights. it's probably a form of meditation or something.

also interesting to me is the false guru thing. sometimes i have seen this tendency in myself and over time i have tried to get it under control and i think i have succeeded to some extent but still working on it. one thing is that if i ever see someone like this i can sometimes go out of my way to take them apart and expose them as false. it aggravates me to the extreme.

the other thing that interested me particularly was the method actor part. this is why i sometimes feel invisible. i feel like i can convince anyone to accept any concept of me and usually it's so easy that i can't resist so that i feel like i'm always playing a role. occasionally it feels not just as though nobody can see the real me, but almost as though there is no longer any real me. it's like all i can do is watch that i'm not doing it for the wrong reasons. sometimes i can't help playing up to the ideas that people approach me with and usually i use it to try to make people think more about their ways of conceiving the world.

cheers
 
ROFL. I've noticed my thread has been circulating to other forums, it's pretty rad that it has come full circle and back to the source.


Well, thanks for your support Invisible.

Also I did not say that The Cobra aspect is specifically for defensive purposes, but rather that even if the INFJ in question is not one that uses the Cobra offensively, it is still something that can trigger when in danger. So yeah, it is definately something an INFJ can use manipulatively for their own gain.
 
I identify with the method actor... that's essentially who Revenwyn was. Someone I eventually embodied that I created to fit the role in a future time.
 
Something about this article really annoys me, and I'm not sure what.

I think it is that it doesn't emphasize enough that INFJs actually do try to be good people by having concern for others, and that when they go bad, they have to go bad through this (meaning they have antipathy toward people).

You don't so easily choose to be a monster as an INFJ.
 
Adymus said:
Real-Life Examples: Dr. Drew, Paul Eckman, Carl Jung (Controversy time!)
Real-Life Examples: GG Allin, Hitler (More controversy time!)
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I just can't take someone seriously when they claim Hitler as an INFJ.
Carl Jung is most likely an INTP, slight possibility of INTJ. Definitely not an INFJ -- have you read any of Carl's books? His writing style is a dead giveaway.

Prof Charles Xavier, Rorschach and V (for Vendetta) are interesting characters. If not INFJ, I would definitely class them as INTJ.
 
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