The Meaning of Life

[LucyJr]

There is no reason to live if life has no meaning. Many people, if they can't find meaning in life, they try to make some sorta meaning to it by themselves.
And I can't find meaning to life, not without God.

so true...

 

[LucyJr]

Yeah.

My main objection to meaning is that the concept of life is universal, so there truly is no "to each their own" when one tries to define it. When one tries to define it, they are in a sense telling me and everyone else what we should be doing.

Is it a particle or is it a wave? It can be either one! So trying to ultimately define it is to me like trying to say that it's only a particle and the wave is some strange aberrant.

"Meaning and purpose" has been a big cause of suffering for me because I tend to be very duty filled, and if a meaning or purpose is prescribed and I'm not fulfilling it, I have major cognitive dissonance which leads me to wonder what the damn point is. It makes me unable to decide if I'm a pointless rebel or a worthless sack of crap for not living up to the expectations set forth by the universe or whatever (hypothetically speaking)

It's just not cool.

[MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION]
I definately agree with you, at least to a degree, and now that I read this comment I think I understand better what you were saying.
You used two words/expressions: dutty filled and prescribed meaning. Like you, I don't agree with this. I am an existentialist when it comes to meaning. I think meaning is descriptive, not prescriptive. That is, our own experience defines meaning for each individual.
To a degree, I believe in prescriptive meaning too, do to others as you would have done to you for example.
Edit:
I also think life has meaning under all circumstances, even the most miserable ones.

 

[sprinkles]

There is no reason to live if life has no meaning. Many people, if they can't find meaning in life, they try to make some sorta meaning to it by themselves.
And I can't find meaning to life, not without God.

If you feel sad, confused, or lost then yes it's hard to find meaning, and I think even God helps there. So I totally understand it. There's nothing wrong with it, it just happens.

Personally though I just walk outside and find God. To breathe in and feel the sunlight for example makes being alive so awesome that I wouldn't quit even if it was pointless, and it only gets better from there. Some times I see a dragonfly or mantis or something and I'm captivated by it and connected to it, and it makes me smile and feel alive to the extent where I can almost pretend that this dragonfly appeared specifically for me, as if visiting a friend.

 

[this is only temporary]

Life according to me part 1:

THE Lord God planted a garden
In the first white days of the world,
And He set there an angel warden
In a garment of light enfurled.

So near to the peace of Heaven,
That the hawk might nest with the wren,
For there in the cool of the even
God walked with the first of men.

And I dream that these garden-closes
With their shade and their sun-flecked sod
And their lilies and bowers of roses,
Were laid by the hand of God.

The kiss of the sun for pardon,
The song of the birds for mirth,--
One is nearer God's heart in a garden
Than anywhere else on earth.

For He broke it for us in a garden
Under the olive-trees
Where the angel of strength was the warden
And the soul of the world found ease.

-- Dorothy Frances Gurney

Life according to me part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkWeMvrNiOM

 

[Neurosis]

The meaning of life is to continue to live.

One thing that every species shares with one another is the instinct for self-preservation. Ants will try to avoid being squished in the same way that a human will try to avoid a car crash.

This is really the only property that is ubiquitous throughout all life forms as we know it. Survival.

Beyond that, I think you may as well create your own meaning.

 

[Skarekrow]

The meaning of life is to continue to live.

One thing that every species shares with one another is the instinct for self-preservation. Ants will try to avoid being squished in the same way that a human will try to avoid a car crash.

This is really the only property that is ubiquitous throughout all life forms as we know it. Survival.

Beyond that, I think you may as well create your own meaning.

I agree with you mostly....
But animals do kill themselves.
There have been many reports of dogs killing themselves...some seem to drown themselves...while some, after the death of their owner, simply refuse to eat and in turn die. Ironically enough, ducks have also been reported to have drown themselves. Of course we all know that whales beach themselves (but whether this is an extreme act of sadness or something wrong with the Earth’s magnetics, food supply, etc....no one knows).
In 2009 cows and bulls mysteriously threw themselves off an alpine cliff over a period of three days.
Deers will leep to their death off cliffs in order to avoid capture by hunting dogs.
In Turkey, 2005, 1,500 sheep calmly walked off a cliff.
Insects will kill themselves in self-defense...the pea aphid will explode itself in an attempt to kill the ladybug attacking, protecting the other aphids...ants, termites, bees, wasps, all commit similar acts.
There is even a parasite that will direct it’s host toward predators so it will be eaten. There is a parasitic worm that causes grasshoppers to leap into the water so the worm can reproduce. Infection with T. gondii has been shown to alter the behavior of mice and rats in ways thought to increase the rodents’ chances of being preyed upon by cats.
The biggest animal suicide misconception was the Disney film “White Wilderness” which showed lemmings leaping over a cliff while the narrator says “One by one....they throw themselves bodily over the cliff....” come to find out later, the crew of the film threw them over....lol.

Interestingly enough, suicidal behavior has been observed more in female animals than male and in more vertebrates than invertebrates.

 

[Skarekrow]

[MENTION=10096]Neurosis[/MENTION]
BTW I wasn’t try to be snarky...lol.
I understand you were addressing the question from an instinctual angle...I wasn’t trying to correct you, I was only throwing in some variables.

 

[sprinkles]

There is even a parasite that will direct it’s host toward predators so it will be eaten. There is a parasitic worm that causes grasshoppers to leap into the water so the worm can reproduce. Infection with T. gondii has been shown to alter the behavior of mice and rats in ways thought to increase the rodents’ chances of being preyed upon by cats.

[video=youtube;-_1FjXb8T1Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_1FjXb8T1Y[/video]

Just had to post this hehe.

 

[muir]

I agree with you mostly....
But animals do kill themselves.
There have been many reports of dogs killing themselves...some seem to drown themselves...while some, after the death of their owner, simply refuse to eat and in turn die. Ironically enough, ducks have also been reported to have drown themselves. Of course we all know that whales beach themselves (but whether this is an extreme act of sadness or something wrong with the Earth’s magnetics, food supply, etc....no one knows).
In 2009 cows and bulls mysteriously threw themselves off an alpine cliff over a period of three days.
Deers will leep to their death off cliffs in order to avoid capture by hunting dogs.
In Turkey, 2005, 1,500 sheep calmly walked off a cliff.
Insects will kill themselves in self-defense...the pea aphid will explode itself in an attempt to kill the ladybug attacking, protecting the other aphids...ants, termites, bees, wasps, all commit similar acts.
There is even a parasite that will direct it’s host toward predators so it will be eaten. There is a parasitic worm that causes grasshoppers to leap into the water so the worm can reproduce. Infection with T. gondii has been shown to alter the behavior of mice and rats in ways thought to increase the rodents’ chances of being preyed upon by cats.
The biggest animal suicide misconception was the Disney film “White Wilderness” which showed lemmings leaping over a cliff while the narrator says “One by one....they throw themselves bodily over the cliff....” come to find out later, the crew of the film threw them over....lol.

Interestingly enough, suicidal behavior has been observed more in female animals than male and in more vertebrates than invertebrates.

A lot of anomolous behaviour in animals can be traced back to humans as humans are tampering with the environment in a number of ways

Military underwater sonar has been blamed by some on the beaching of whales .

Then there are massive releases of metal particulates into the air and the sea as part of 'geoengineering' which kills fish, trees and birds (and humans)

I heard an idea recently that perhaps the T,Gondii parasite has infected humans and is responsible for some of the destructive behaviours of humans; thats speculation but it would explain a lot

 

[muir]

An interesting post I just read...it seemed to be significant to me while we discuss the meaning of life and what people strive for in it.

"Most people have some sense of sacrifice, and this 'weakness' is exploited thoroughly by con-artists. For example, whole religions exhort you to sacrifice your entire life-pleasures for a 'payoff' which you will receive when you are dead. Bosses can get you to sacrifice days of your time for 'the good of the company'; charities can get you to sacrifice time/effort/money for 'the good of the cause'. The reason that this weapon is so powerful is because it gets you to sacrifice your life's values for nothing, i.e. absolutely free! Your sole reward is a smug self-satisfied feeling of having done a 'good deed'; but it's the con-artist who hauls off the real rewards. Altruism is an endemic disease in our society. Because it is such a huge evil, I will devote a little time to it here.

Altruism is the position held by most religious people and more importantly this idea forms a central portion of most people’s world-view, even though they have not consciously thought about it and regardless of how ‘anti-religious’ they profess to be.

Altruism holds that the purpose of a man’s life is NOT his own happiness. If a man gains any happiness, this is either incidental or actively discouraged as sinful, wicked, selfish, etc. The purpose of a man’s life is to serve others. He is, in effect, a sacrificial animal. Altruism holds that any man’s need is sufficient to place a mortgage on your life. No matter if you have never met the man, his need is enough.

Altruism states that your purpose is to toil at the yoke of human servitude until every mouth is fed, every child is clothed and each human being has the ‘basics’ of life, which nowadays include a car, a telephone a television and a two week holiday each year. No matter that this is an impossible task, you will labor until your back is broken and you can turn the wheel no more. Your reward is either in heaven or the knowledge that you have done your civic ‘duty’.

You will not even be granted pride in a job well done. Pride is sinful. Your task is to labor for NO reward - not even satisfaction. You are not even permitted to see the results of your efforts. These will be distributed by the ‘priests of collectivism’ to the ‘needy’ and you will not be consulted or shown any results. You must not think of what you want. This is ‘selfish’. Instead you must constantly search out the needs of others and strive to fulfill them. "

- Inner Circle Philosophy (Stuart Goldsmith)

I don't think altruism is the problem. i think ignorance is the problem which leads to naivity and the whole being taken advantage of thing

I think it is about a balance. One should seek their own happiness but not at the expense of others. So a balance must be struck between the individuals happiness and the communities happiness

Goldsmith is i would guess trying to convince the reader of a free market position. However the philospohy of only seeking our own happiness would be the ideal justification for the actions of any self seeking tyrant

I think balance is the key....the middle way

I think the happiness of the individual and the happiness of the wider community are intimately linked. i think our society has lost sight of that and that is why so many people are unhappy

 

[Neurosis]

I agree with you mostly....
But animals do kill themselves.
There have been many reports of dogs killing themselves...some seem to drown themselves...while some, after the death of their owner, simply refuse to eat and in turn die. Ironically enough, ducks have also been reported to have drown themselves. Of course we all know that whales beach themselves (but whether this is an extreme act of sadness or something wrong with the Earth’s magnetics, food supply, etc....no one knows).
In 2009 cows and bulls mysteriously threw themselves off an alpine cliff over a period of three days.
Deers will leep to their death off cliffs in order to avoid capture by hunting dogs.
In Turkey, 2005, 1,500 sheep calmly walked off a cliff.
Insects will kill themselves in self-defense...the pea aphid will explode itself in an attempt to kill the ladybug attacking, protecting the other aphids...ants, termites, bees, wasps, all commit similar acts.
There is even a parasite that will direct it’s host toward predators so it will be eaten. There is a parasitic worm that causes grasshoppers to leap into the water so the worm can reproduce. Infection with T. gondii has been shown to alter the behavior of mice and rats in ways thought to increase the rodents’ chances of being preyed upon by cats.
The biggest animal suicide misconception was the Disney film “White Wilderness” which showed lemmings leaping over a cliff while the narrator says “One by one....they throw themselves bodily over the cliff....” come to find out later, the crew of the film threw them over....lol.

Interestingly enough, suicidal behavior has been observed more in female animals than male and in more vertebrates than invertebrates.

Great post. I was actually going to talk about these sorts of anomalous behaviours in my initial post, though I figured it wasn't greatly relevant to the overall premise of the thread. I'm glad you pointed it out, because it gives me some more food for thought.

The example I was going to use was actually of ducks. Ducks partner for life, and if their partner dies they won't seek another. It's also a huge stress on them.

I know of someone who killed a duck while out hunting, they shot it while it was flying with a large group of them. After he shot it, the ducks partner flew down to it, prodding it and squawking. The partner did this for nearly three hours straight, nearby his cabin. After that the duck just sat there, prodding its partner, lying next to it and apparently trying to wake it. The whole ordeal lasted nearly six hours. He couldn't believe how much emotional pain an animal could experience, and he gave up hunting altogether after that.

I wanted to use this as an example, to highlight that animals are emotional, and capable of being motivated by more than mere instinct. They will act for the benefit of the whole under certain circumstances, and they will often protect and defend their kin.

I wasn't sure how to interpret this thought when it first occurred to me, because it seemed to run contrary to the survival instinct, however I don't believe it does. When you consider that an animal has its own emotional attachment to its kin, it makes sense that when put in a situation of danger, they instinctively work to ensure the survival of their kin - even at danger to themselves.

As for suicide, it's a little more complicated. However the same basic principle applies. Instinct is affected by emotion. I find that a common trait amongst people who commit suicide is a feeling of uselessness - they think the world is better without them, because they're just a pointless burden on their loved ones. That their removal is a good thing for the continued existence of others.

Just musing, I really appreciated the responses.

 

[Skarekrow]

I don't think altruism is the problem. i think ignorance is the problem which leads to naivity and the whole being taken advantage of thing

I think it is about a balance. One should seek their own happiness but not at the expense of others. So a balance must be struck between the individuals happiness and the communities happiness

Goldsmith is i would guess trying to convince the reader of a free market position. However the philospohy of only seeking our own happiness would be the ideal justification for the actions of any self seeking tyrant

I think balance is the key....the middle way

I think the happiness of the individual and the happiness of the wider community are intimately linked. i think our society has lost sight of that and that is why so many people are unhappy

I happen to be on the same side as you as far as altruism goes....I guess I should have made that clear when I posted that paragraph...lol.
I am a very altruistic person, I was ingrained in me from a very small age by my parents, for which I now thank them. I do agree with certain aspects of the article...in how those in power seats use those with and altruistic nature and then discard them like so much trash. Back when they actually taught a work ethic that coincided with altruism we had such things as retirement, pensions, etc. Then the 80’s came along, and the good ol’ Gipper dismantled what work protections we had left, shifted the focus to greed, and tilted the tax structure on it’s head, letting the money from the poor and working class dribble down to the rich....yes, we do have “trickle-down” economics here...it’s our money trickling to them!
Anyhow, I have wandered wildly from the topic of the thread!

“There is a sufficiency in the world for man’s need but not for man’s greed.” - Gandhi

So back on topic...there is one quote that I have always loved concerning the meaning of life...here it is...

[h=1]“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy’. They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.” - John Lennon[/h]That, to me, is all that is wrong with our society...this is what is taught from generation to generation....so sad...

 

[muir]

I happen to be on the same side as you as far as altruism goes....I guess I should have made that clear when I posted that paragraph...lol.

Its cool, i know where your heart lies

I am a very altruistic person, I was ingrained in me from a very small age by my parents, for which I now thank them. I do agree with certain aspects of the article...in how those in power seats use those with and altruistic nature and then discard them like so much trash. Back when they actually taught a work ethic that coincided with altruism we had such things as retirement, pensions, etc. Then the 80’s came along, and the good ol’ Gipper dismantled what work protections we had left, shifted the focus to greed, and tilted the tax structure on it’s head, letting the money from the poor and working class dribble down to the rich....

The political dialogue in the US seems to be dominated by on one hand anarcho-capitalists and on the other hand state socialists (the oligarchs want a centrally controlled economy where they and their interests are protected by a strong and all pervasive government ie totalitarian). Both of which i would say are unbalanced

yes, we do have “trickle-down” economics here...it’s our money trickling to them!

Yeah i'd say its more of a flood but yeah the wealth is flooding upwards not downwards. This is unsustainable and there is going to be a serious outburst of pent up energy at some point from the people

Anyhow, I have wandered wildly from the topic of the thread!

“There is a sufficiency in the world for man’s need but not for man’s greed.” - Gandhi

That guy knew the game!

So back on topic...there is one quote that I have always loved concerning the meaning of life...here it is...

“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy’. They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.” - John Lennon

That, to me, is all that is wrong with our society...this is what is taught from generation to generation....so sad...

I think John had a lot of it figured out by the end

[video=youtube;8dHUfy_YBps]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dHUfy_YBps[/video]

 

[muir]

[video=youtube;3yUSGvm4BXA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yUSGvm4BXA[/video]

 

[sprinkles]

I don't think altruism is the problem. i think ignorance is the problem which leads to naivity and the whole being taken advantage of thing

I think it is about a balance. One should seek their own happiness but not at the expense of others. So a balance must be struck between the individuals happiness and the communities happiness

Goldsmith is i would guess trying to convince the reader of a free market position. However the philospohy of only seeking our own happiness would be the ideal justification for the actions of any self seeking tyrant

I think balance is the key....the middle way

I think the happiness of the individual and the happiness of the wider community are intimately linked. i think our society has lost sight of that and that is why so many people are unhappy

I think altruism is only altruism when you're naturally guided to have it. I feel it's a good thing in that case. I don't believe one can be altruistic just because somebody said they are supposed to be.

Altruism doesn't lead to happiness but the right kind of happiness can lead to altruism.

Edit: or put it this way.
If you are content, and your happiness is not attached to material wealth, and you have more than you need, and you care about others, then you really have no reasons left to not be altruistic. It eventually becomes the natural course.

This would be different if somebody tries to force you to be so because in that case there's a tendency to stiffen up and resist, and then maybe you start becoming infatuated with your own wealth because you want to protect it from the perceived threat - which is a natural response, but evoked in an unnatural way.

 

[muir]

I think altruism is only altruism when you're naturally guided to have it. I feel it's a good thing in that case. I don't believe one can be altruistic just because somebody said they are supposed to be.

Altruism doesn't lead to happiness but the right kind of happiness can lead to altruism.

Edit: or put it this way.
If you are content, and your happiness is not attached to material wealth, and you have more than you need, and you care about others, then you really have no reasons left to not be altruistic. It eventually becomes the natural course.

This would be different if somebody tries to force you to be so because in that case there's a tendency to stiffen up and resist, and then maybe you start becoming infatuated with your own wealth because you want to protect it from the perceived threat - which is a natural response, but evoked in an unnatural way.

Yeah i think you're describing ignorance

Not just informational ignorance but emotional ignorance

As Timothy leary said ''people need to feel good to do good''

If people are brutalised then they become hard hearted and they are then more likely to brutalise others

Poverty is a form of brutalisation but at the upper end of the societal scale the rich have their own brutalising culture as well, which ensures the hard hearted leaders of tomorrow

So we need to use mental and emotional understanding to realise that an unequal society is going to be a brutal and brutalising society=downward spiral of suffering

 

[LucyJr]

Goldsmith is i would guess trying to convince the reader of a free market position. However the philospohy of only seeking our own happiness would be the ideal justification for the actions of any self seeking tyrant

This is almost exactly how Raskolnikov from "Crime and Punishment" replied at this idea.
I think that's very true, with the note that tyrans believe themselfs that they sekk happiness, but what they truly seek is power, just like Nietzche put it : "The will to power". Other thinkers have argumented against this that you'll never find rest/contetment in this search of happiness/power. It's not a real power, and it's not a real happiness.

 

[sprinkles]

Yeah i think you're describing ignorance

Not just informational ignorance but emotional ignorance

As Timothy leary said ''people need to feel good to do good''

If people are brutalised then they become hard hearted and they are then more likely to brutalise others

Poverty is a form of brutalisation but at the upper end of the societal scale the rich have their own brutalising culture as well, which ensures the hard hearted leaders of tomorrow

So we need to use mental and emotional understanding to realise that an unequal society is going to be a brutal and brutalising society=downward spiral of suffering

Yes. Wealth to an extent is brutalizing as well in a way, because it sets up the poverty. Progress is in fact what has made the concept of poverty - this is evidenced by ancient uncontacted peoples that still exist, especially on the Andaman islands where the Sentinalese live, relatively untouched for thousands of years. They do not appreciate intruders on their island and it's believed that they're hunter-gatherers who have not even discovered fire yet. They attack anyone who gets close, shoot at helicopters with their arrows and have killed fishermen that wander too near, so the government of India has pretty much decided they shall be left alone, because even if they were contacted, modern disease would probably kill them.

 

[muir]

Yes. Wealth to an extent is brutalizing as well in a way, because it sets up the poverty. Progress is in fact what has made the concept of poverty - this is evidenced by ancient uncontacted peoples that still exist, especially on the Andaman islands where the Sentinalese live, relatively untouched for thousands of years. They do not appreciate intruders on their island and it's believed that they're hunter-gatherers who have not even discovered fire yet. They attack anyone who gets close, shoot at helicopters with their arrows and have killed fishermen that wander too near, so the government of India has pretty much decided they shall be left alone, because even if they were contacted, modern disease would probably kill them.

Poverty isn't a concept though

Those islanders have everything they need to survive but not everyone living in poverty now does. They also have cultural integrity...a sense of themselves

Those in poverty now are also often exploited by outside sources

So i don't think poverty is a perception...it is a condition created by imperialism which has always been about exploitation

If any government and the corporations it represents thought there were resources to exploit on that island they would sweep in there and grab them and they wouldn't care how much the tribe was decimated. Poverty would be what they left behind: disease, broken communities, broken culture, lost identity, damaged land and a people without a sense of themselves adrift in a confusing and brutally unequal world

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]

Concept of a created condition. Same difference - I never said it was only a perception.

My entire point is that if it weren't for revolutionary progress, we would not have it. At least not in the same way.