The Minimal Facts for the Resurrection of Christ.

Because Augustine was a Christian AKA Christ follower AKA follower of Jesus.



I'll just answer it...

"Sin" has a technical definition...

It means, in archery, anything that does not hit the bulls eye.
So you are referring ONLY to the word chet. I'm not sure why you are limiting Jesus' understanding to only that word when he had many others as well, but I'll go with it for the sake of the discussion.
Therefore, a sin is anything that is not perfect...
No, it only refers to actions. Not states. Like shooting an arrow at a target, a sin is something we do, not something we are. Chet is a description of the accuracy of the shoot. It doesn't describe the archer.
Do you see now why Christians view themselves as sinners? Who can claim perfection? Do you now see how Christians believe in Original SIN?
See above.

This has never been about perfection. The Tanakh assumes imperfection and contains within it the instructions for how to handle imperfection.
Doesn't matter if you have found that to be the case or not...
I disagree. This is what you call a reality check.

Analogy: Remember being in math class as a kid, and the teacher was instructing you that the last part of solving a problem is looking at your answer to see if it's reasonable?

No matter how compelling a logical argument is, no matter how stunning the analogy, it must ALWAYS be checked against reality. Someone can come up with an absolutely brilliant argument why the flowers are pink, and give the most amazing analogy. But if you look out and see yellow flowers, you look at them and say, "I'm not buying that."

Remember, our senses, our perceptions, and our cognition are all FLAWED. There will be times when we think we are making a spectacular argument, but it just ain't so.

Generally speaking, although error can certainly enter during either the sensing or perceiving phases, MOST mistakes occur due to cognitive error.
The reasons the circuit breaker is clever is because you know it doesn't work... But suddenly, when it is people we are talking about, the rules completely change. Why is that?
Because people and the way we learn are NOT analogous to an electrical circuit.
 
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So you are referring ONLY to the word chet. I'm not sure why you are limiting Jesus' understanding to only that word when he had many others as well, but I'll go with it for the sake of the discussion.

Correct, because we are talking about Original SIN.

No, it only refers to actions. Not states. A sin is something we do, not something we are.

Please show some evidence of this.

brilliant argument why the flowers are pink

Logic is not a "Brilliant argument." Denying logic is like denying math. Math is just logic with numbers.

Remember, our senses, our perceptions, and our cognition are all FLAWED.

Correct, and the laws of logic are not.

Because people and the way we learn are NOT analogous to an electrical circuit.

Why not? You can keep repeating we are not like that, but then you are going to have to explain why we aren't.
 
Who can claim perfection?
Anyone and everyone can claim what they like.

And because beauty is in the eye of the beholder, the claim is appreciated, or not, and because perception is limited, it is seen for what it is, or not.

As always, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence if they are to stand to inquiry.

Also, for what it is worth, perfection is an ideal, and comparing and contrasting human beings, earthly creatures, and material things with an idea is utter tomfoolery.

In part because those things exceed the limits of our perception.

Cheers,
Ian
 
Anyone and everyone can claim what they like.

And because beauty is in the eye of the beholder, the claim is appreciated, or not, and because perception is limited, it is seen for what it is, or not.

As always, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence if they are to stand to inquiry.

Also, for what it is worth, perfection is an ideal, and comparing and contrasting human beings, earthly creatures, and material things with an idea is utter tomfoolery.

In part because those things exceed the limits of our perception.

Cheers,
Ian

Beauty is not in the eye of the beholder...

Some things ARE ugly. Some things ARE beautiful...

But I'm never going to fulfill your Burden of Proof and it is dishonest to say that evidence would convince you when it won't and it will always be a moving goalpost.
 
Please show some evidence of this.
YOU, my friend, are the one who chose to use the word chet and only the word chet. Now you have to live with the consequences of that. As I said, chet only describes the accuracy of the shoot. It does NOT describe the archer.

People can look at two different archers and say, "Ariel is really good. And I mean REALLY good!" and then say, "Jim? Meh." Ariel does not need to be a perfect archer for such an assessment to be accurate.
Logic is not a "Brilliant argument." Denying logic is like denying math. Math is just logic with numbers.
Correct, and the laws of logic are not.
I'm not making a statement about logic. I'm making a statement about PEOPLE. People are irrational. We think we are being logical, when in fact we are making logical errors ALL THE TIME. OMGosh, I think it is a total miracle we function as well as we do given how incoherent our thinking is.
Why not? You can keep repeating we are not like that, but then you are going to have to explain why we aren't.
The analogy fails on several levels because it treats human learning as if it were a closed electrical circuit with no external input. Human cognition is not self contained in that way. We learn through interaction with an external world, through other minds, through experimentation, through error correction, and through collective knowledge accumulated across generations. A flawed system can still improve its accuracy through feedback. Science itself is built on exactly that principle.

The analogy also commits a false equivalence between “imperfect” and “useless.” A thermometer can be slightly inaccurate and still reliably tell you whether you have a fever. Human cognition does not need to be infallible to produce increasingly reliable conclusions.

There is also a hidden all or nothing assumption. You seem to imply that if our minds are flawed, then no knowledge is possible unless some perfect external teacher exists. But in reality, systems can be fallible and still self correcting. Evolutionary processes, machine learning, peer review, and even ordinary trial and error all demonstrate this.

Finally, the power strip analogy does not really fit because a power strip plugged into itself receives nothing new from outside. Human learning is different. We are constantly receiving new information from the world around us through experience, observation, other people, testing, and correction. A better analogy would be a musician with imperfect hearing who still becomes more accurate over time by listening, practicing, noticing mistakes, and adjusting. Imperfect tools can still improve through feedback.
 
Beauty is not in the eye of the beholder...

Some things ARE ugly. Some things ARE beautiful...
Okay then. I don’t know what to say to that other than we might agree to disagree.
But I'm never going to fulfill your Burden of Proof and it is dishonest to say that evidence would convince you when it won't and it will always be a moving goalpost.
I’m not saying I want evidence.

I have no need to be convinced of anything.

You do not know what I believe, because you have made assumptions, instead of asking and seeking understanding.

Also, the disrespect and presumption to say you know how I will think and feel.

Best to You,
Ian
 
People can look at two different archers and say, "Ariel is really good. And I mean REALLY good!" and then say, "Jim? Meh." Ariel does not need to be a perfect archer for such an assessment to be accurate.

It's not about who the better archer is. It is about who got a bulls eye and who did not.

I'm not making a statement about logic. I'm making a statement about PEOPLE. People are irrational. We think we are being logical, when in fact we are making logical errors ALL THE TIME. OMGosh, I think it is a total miracle we function as well as we do given how incoherent our thinking is.

This is why philosophers make premises and conclusions and there is a WHOLE SCHOOL of thought devoted to logical sequences... I'm telling you that the source for the problem cannot be the same solution metaphysically.

A flawed system can still improve its accuracy through feedback.

How?

Science itself is built on exactly that principle.

And there is a conduit behind science, which is a mind. Science is not a thing in itself. It is a method of the mind.

Human cognition does not need to be infallible to produce increasingly reliable conclusions.

How?

systems can be fallible and still self correcting

How?

Evolutionary processes,

I don't believe I was a fish...

Human learning is different.

How? You said we are NOT rational... You said we are flawed... This does not make sense.... It's like arguing that AI can become conscious...

We are constantly receiving new information from the world around us through experience, observation, other people, testing, and correction.

Yes, from other humans, which is the highest form of information which gets lost in translation, not multiplied.

Your hidden assumption is that it is not humanity as such that is the problem... Humanity as such does not have a problem... Individuals have problems... This is why you think you can just learn from a better human and fix the problem of humanity. This does not work. HUMANITY has a problem, collectively, as a whole... As such, Humanity, as a whole, needs a solution for humanity as a whole. You will always have better/smarter people. That does not solve humanities problems.... Humanity IS a closed loop... We are not God... We cannot create new information... We can only rearrange the information we have...

We are never going to agree on this... It's fine... We've gotten WAY off the topic of the thread anyways.
 
It's not about who the better archer is. It is about who got a bulls eye and who did not.
This literally doesn't make sense. Your second sentence is an illustration of your first sentence. Please. WE've been chatting for a long, long time, and I am quite positive you can do better than this.

It takes a lot of integrity to admit when we make mistakes. But I'm telling you, when I see another person say, "You know what, you're right" I perk up and I'm like, "Who is this? I gotta remember this person. They are quality." In fact, I even admire myself when *I* say I'm wrong. LOL
This is why philosophers make premises and conclusions and there is a WHOLE SCHOOL of thought devoted to logical sequences... I'm telling you that the source for the problem cannot be the same solution metaphysically.
Take your argument and run it by someone with a PhD in philosophy, or ask AI to evaluate it. Like all human beings, your argument seems logical to you because it produces the conclusion you emotionally need to have. But it is NOT logical.
How? The answer is right there in the sentence you quoted. FEEDBACK.
How? You said we are NOT rational... You said we are flawed... This does not make sense.... It's like arguing that AI can become conscious...
I'm expecting it. I haven't encountered it yet. But I have emotionally prepared myself for when it happens.
Your hidden assumption is that it is not humanity as such that is the problem... Humanity as such does not have a problem... Individuals have problems...
I actually don't make the distinction you are attributing to me. Individuals are part of groups. Humanity is one of the groups that individuals are part of. To me, all humanity is, is a bunch of individuals.
This is why you think you can just learn from a better human
There have been times when I've learned from far less intelligent, far more impaired human beings. My son's fiance is developmentally disabled. She is as sweet as honey, but has the mind of a child. But don't let that fool you. There have been times she has just thrown off all the noise that is confusing me and given a simple truth in a way that is incredibly profound.
We are never going to agree on this... It's fine...
I agree. :) And please know that it NEVER bothers me when others disagree. I actually prefer conversations with people who DO disagree because they are the ones who make me think in new ways. If I lived in an echo chamber, only talking with people who agreed with me, I would never grow.
We've gotten WAY off the topic of the thread anyways.
OMG. So true. So true.
 
This literally doesn't make sense. Your second sentence is an illustration of your first sentence. Please. WE've been chatting for a long, long time, and I am quite positive you can do better than this.

It takes a lot of integrity to admit when we make mistakes. But I'm telling you, when I see another person say, "You know what, you're right" I perk up and I'm like, "Who is this? I gotta remember this person. They are quality." In fact, I even admire myself when *I* say I'm wrong. LOL

Take your argument and run it by someone with a PhD in philosophy, or ask AI to evaluate it. Like all human beings, your argument seems logical to you because it produces the conclusion you emotionally need to have. But it is NOT logical.

How? The answer is right there in the sentence you quoted. FEEDBACK.

I'm expecting it. I haven't encountered it yet. But I have emotionally prepared myself for when it happens.

I actually don't make the distinction you are attributing to me. Individuals are part of groups. Humanity is one of the groups that individuals are part of. To me, all humanity is, is a bunch of individuals.

There have been times when I've learned from far less intelligent, far more impaired human beings. My son's fiance is developmentally disabled. She is as sweet as honey, but has the mind of a child. But don't let that fool you. There have been times she has just thrown off all the noise that is confusing me and given a simple truth in a way that is incredibly profound.

I agree. :) And please know that it NEVER bothers me when others disagree. I actually prefer conversations with people who DO disagree because they are the ones who make me think in new ways. If I lived in an echo chamber, only talking with people who agreed with me, I would never grow.

OMG. So true. So true.

I'm sorry, my conviction in the law of entropy (both physically and spiritually) is too strong to have this conversation.

If you would like to talk about something else, that's fine.
 
[Donning my Dread Pirate Roberts black outfit]...as you wish. :)

We don't have a material problem. The book of Daniel says that in the end days, "Knowledge shall increase."

All the philosophers deal with these things by metrics like life expectancy... That's not how I am viewing it at all... I view it by things like pride, a lack of humility, selfishness, licentiousness, greed, evil plans etc... Things that are the furthest from any answer AI would give me...
 
It should also be noted that the Nazarenes never made a claim that Jesus is God. There has never existed any form of Judaism that tolerates the notion that God incarnated as a man.

Several words come to mind in dictionary fashion to me.

Atonement vs repentance

In Christianity we do not or cannot make our sins go away because in order to do so we need to be God since God chooses to harden hearts or not to do so. So We have "grace" that comes to us which allows us to change our minds (metanoia) where a transformation happens in the "heart". The reason Jesus is needed is that Jesus is God so by knowing what Jesus did and said we have more chance to come to grace.

I do not know why jews killed animals at the temple for thousands of years if sin is just animal instincts. Humans have minds so Abraham sacrificed the ram instead of Isaac and this is what Jesus did for humanity. You do not need to kill animals in a temple. God himself came to make you part of his family in a demonstration of self sacrifice to save you. Because people are very dumb we would would not understand unless God did this in this way in physical reality. God then lives inside us.

I am not 100% clear on how Judaism sees it but I think if a person dies and has a bitter heart they cannot be with God. So Christianity was a better way for God to bring people to himself. I can see if any religion brings you to God that is good, not everyone has read the bible thousands of years in the past. But there are parts of the torah that do make it such that there is a reason Jesus would be God. He was sent here to bring everyone back to himself. And fixing sin or what not is not just about doing good actions but having the mentality of God. To think like God. To know his ways. Otherwise he would not talk to people as he has done. Because he has a plan and purpose.

So when we do bad things (sin) we must apologize to God first and if Jesus is God we must find it in us to believe in him. God knows everything even if other words exist we humans do not know. Jesus is God because you can ask him to forgive you and the Father is sent him to do so by grace, no one else.

Please let me know if you heard this before, I would like there to be no confusion on the matter. What do you think?
 
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Several words come to mind in dictionary fashion to me.

Atonement vs repentance

In Christianity we do not or cannot make our sins go away because in order to do so we need to be God since God chooses to harden hearts or not to do so. So We have "grace" that comes to us which allows us to change our minds (metanoia) where a transformation happens in the "heart". The reason Jesus is needed is that Jesus is God so by knowing what Jesus did and said we have more chance to come to grace.
I deeply appreciate the importance of grace. My Hebrew name, Chana (Hannah, Anne), means grace. So you and I share a very important foundation.

Where we differ is this. I don't see Jesus being necessary for the expression of God's grace. My job is to repent. And when I do that, God forgives. He casts my sins into the sea and remembers them no more. He is not bound by some outside set of rules; he is not constrained by anything. He forgives because he can, because he WANTS to. He doesn't need any sacrifices in order to do so, whether it be a lamb or grain or wandering Jewish preacher. All he asks is our repentence.

Psalm 51
18 For You do not wish a sacrifice, or I should give it; You do not desire a burnt offering.
19 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; O God, You will not despise a broken and crushed heart.
I do not know why jews killed animals at the temple for thousands of years if sin is just animal instincts.
It's because human beings find meaning and expression in symbolic acts. Remember that these sacrifices were eaten. In all human cultures around the world and down through time, breaking bread, sharing a meal, has been a common means of repairing relationships. When we say the word "sacrifice," the modern mind instantly focuses on only the first part, the ritual slaughter. But the sacrifice isn't finished until the meat is cooked and eaten. It is a meal shared with God, symbolically healing the relationship that is torn when we sin. It may help if you think of it as a kind of BBQ dinner that you invite God to.

In your gospels, Jesus tells the story of the Prodigal Son. Recall that at the end of the story, that part of the repair of the relationship between the father and the son was the killing of the fatted calf. When you read this story, do you focus in on the slaughter? No! You are like, OMG the father threw a PARTY! They stuffed themselves silly!

That is what the sacrifices were. A party. A meal shared between father and prodigal child returned.
God himself came to make you part of his family
All people are God's children. He loves us because he made us. It's really not a complicated thing.
I am not 100% clear on how Judaism sees it but I think if a person dies and has a bitter heart they cannot be with God.
Fruiteloop, I have no idea what happens after death. Perhaps there is an afterlife, perhaps not. It may be that you are 100% correct. Your idea does have a certain amount of poetry to it. We will all find out someday.

But for now, my focus is on this life. How will I love and serve God right now, right here, this day.
So Christianity was a better way for God to bring people to himself.
If Jesus draws you closer to Hashem and inspires you to be a better person, then by all means, be a Christian. I support you. I hope and pray that you will become the very best Christian you can be.

But what you don't see is that there are many other people in this world who also love and serve God, and who also have an intimate relationship with him, and they do it without Jesus. I realize that your New Testament says that Jesus is the only way, but this just doesn't match up with reality. He is YOUR way. He is not my way.

There is no worse feeling than taking a chance and opening up and sharing your heart with someone, and them turning around and invalidating your experience, telling you it's not real, that it can't be real, that you must be imagining it. Please believe me when I say that I acutely feel God's presence, his endless love, and his almost frightening power. It moves me to awe, to worship. God is the axis around which my life turns. .Just as I am able to put my theological disagreement aside and support you in your Christian walk, I so wish that you could do the same for me.
But there are parts of the torah that do make it such that there is a reason Jesus would be God.
I know that the idea that God himself loved you so much that he died for you is very dear to your heart, and I'm not here to undermine that faith. But Fruiteloop, the Torah never mentions Jesus. Not even once. When Christians read the Torah, they see what they expect to see.

I'm going to share a little something from my life. It is not intended to make you give up Jesus or change your beliefs. It is meant to show you that another person can have all the same experiences you have, and yet view them in a different way.

As you know, I was raised Christian. I learned Jesus from my mother's knee. And Fruiteloop, I loved Jesus with all my heart! Do you know the praise song "Breathe"?

Over the course of my life, I developed a deep and profound love for the Jewish people, and very, very much wanted to become a Jew. But my belief in Jesus prevented me from converting. In order to complete geirus, the convert has to leave behind any religion they previously had. The problem was, I KNEW Jesus. I felt his presence at times. I believed when I prayed that, in a fashion, I could hear him speak to my heart. How could I simply say that these experiences weren't real? To do that would be to say that I was crazy, and I couldn't live with the idea that my entire perception was that skewed and unreliable. It would drive me mad.

One Shabbat evening a couple of my male Jewish friends were walking me home from shul. Yeah, I was a NUTTY Christian--I faithfully attended church every Sunday, but would also attend synagogue every Friday night. As the three of us walked, I told them that I just didn't understand why, if it was okay for me to be a Christian, that I would need to give up those beliefs in order to become a Jew.

And that is when they explained shituf to me. Shituf is the Hebrew word that means association. It refers to when a person truly does love and worship God, but mistakenly associates God with a thing, or creature, or person, when God is none of those. It was explained to me that when a Christian looks up into heaven, they do in fact see God, but they view God through glasses that have the word Jesus etched on them.

And in that moment, I recognized myself in that illustration. And the dominos began to fall. All those experiences? They were all quite real. They were not imagined. But they were not experiences with Jesus. It had never been Jesus. It had always been God. It was God whom I loved. God whose presence I sensed. God whose voice my heart heard. And God whom I had always loved and served. I didn't need to change religions at all. All I needed to do was see the God I had always had... a little more clearly. All I needed to do, was take off the glasses.

When that Shabbat was over, I began my conversion.
 
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